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Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread


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I'm also a big softie for the old Arrows, but I never had a problem with Corkscrew at CP the way I did with some of the other corkscrew model coasters (looking at you Python).

 

Then again, the only Arrows I ever thought were justifiably called rough were Shockwave, Drachen Fire, and Great American Scream Machine. Smoothest Arrow looper to me is Loch Ness Monster, but Corkscrew at CP isn't that far behind in my opinion.

 

With that said, I rode Blue Hawk last year and would greatly prefer seeing more Arrows get those trains over getting torn down. I bet those "rough three" I said before might still be standing if they had redesigned trains. I know Ninja was Vekoma, but Vekoma was just a spin-off of Arrow anyhow, on Arrow's own track.

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Did they happen to mention how heavy that train is?

I feel bad because this is all I post about lately but no... if a park has the ability to open and there's demand and they choose to stay closed then they're dumb. Period. Be creative and figure it ou

So basically there were about as many rides open as there would be in peak season with 15 mph winds.

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I'm a stickler for history, it's my nature, so Id like to see Corkscrew stay just because of how iconic it is. That said progress is progress. If they did replace it with something new that still did the double corkscrew over the walkway, I'd not be that bummed. Besides restraints...it's obviously an old ride that's not really good/past its prime. At any other park/in a less historical context it would've been removed years ago. We need B&M or intamin to get in the makeover business, turn these old arrows into new good rides like RMC does.

I too am a stickler for history, but the double corkscrew over the midway is really the only thing about Corkscrew that stands out to me. I agree that it's great when parks preserve historic rides, but it shouldn't be determined just upon the age of a ride. Rides like Whizzer, Schwarzkopf loopers/shuttles, log flumes, classic flats, old woodies, GOOD Arrow coasters, etc. that still provide thrills or a unique experience that not really like what modern incarnations try to imitate, but Corkscrew doesn't really fall into this category. It become sub-par years ago with its uneventful and rough layout and is overshadowed in a park like Cedar Point.

 

Oh absolutely, I probably should've stuck with iconic, because you're right it's entirely the image of the corkscrews over the walkway. There is really nothing else about it and I've not bothered to ride it in over a decade. For me it's age/history/icon status AND quality as well as how much it fits.

I really wasn't very wowed by Loch Ness Monster, (surely I'm not alone) but it's so classic, it doesn't take away anything from BGW so I'd hate to see it go. While as you say so many good old rides have gotten the axe. Absolutely, I'd have not be very sad at all if they replaced it. Coasterbill has a good point, part of it is surely convenience it doesn't take up much space. It's absolutely a subpar ride, even better trains wouldn't help its slow boring layout. If anything it'd be like Mean Streak...for me the roughness is the one thing I COULD feel without that the ride was even worse!

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I really wasn't very wowed by Loch Ness Monster, (surely I'm not alone) but it's so classic, it doesn't take away anything from BGW so I'd hate to see it go.

 

Where did you sit on LNM that it didn't wow you? Because if you rode in the back car and weren't wow'd by the air time (especially on the first drop), I don't know what to say to you.

 

Yeah, there's a lot of really amazing things that have come along in recent years, but sometimes knowing where to sit makes a HUGE difference in the quality of those older coasters.

 

With that said, I also don't think we should forget the "levels" of coasters, and that it's a big deal to some guests. Lets talk about looping coasters at CP:

 

Corkscrew: 3 inversions, 85 foot drop, 48mph

 

Gatekeeper: 6 inversions, 170ft drop, 67mph

 

Maverick: 2 inversions, launch coaster, beyond-vertical drop, 70mph

 

Raptor: 6 inversions, 137ft, 57mph

 

Rougarou: 4 inversions, 145ft, 60mph

 

Valrvn: 3 inversions, 214ft vertical drop, 75mph.

 

Not everyone wants to ride those "huge" coasters. If you're graduating from Iron Dragon/Gemini to the next big thrill, and want to try going upside down, you either get on corkscrew, or your next "logical" options are Maverick (which many consider the most intense ride in the park), Rougarou (very intimidating to coaster newbies), or Valrvn (extremely intimidating to newbies).

 

Corkscrew fills a role, so if it ever goes, it really needs to be replaced with something else that fills that exact role. That's not even getting into the height discussion, because a lot of adults find themselves in "new coaster" territory too. However yes, the B&Ms and the like do have very tall height requirements. I once had to turn a legal adult away from Alpengeist because they weren't tall enough :/

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It's absolutely a subpar ride, even better trains wouldn't help its slow boring layout. If anything it'd be like Mean Streak...for me the roughness is the one thing I COULD feel without that the ride was even worse!

I don't think the new vekoma trains with soft vest restraints would eliminate Corkscrew's roughness, I just think that they'd make experiencing that roughness a whole hell of a lot more tolerable compared to the old rigid horse collars currently in place.

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I personally haven't had the chance to ride Blue Hawk at SFOG, but I can tell you that without a doubt, Tennessee Tornado has to be one of the smoothest Arrows out there. I don't know what Arrow did back in 1998 to make it any different than their previous custom loopers, but even after all these years, it still packs a punch.

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I honestly feel like they've already done this (in a much more cost effective way) with Blue Hawk at SFOG. I don't understand why every park with a rough Arrow looper doesn't buy these trains.

 

Yeah, that's probably a really good starting point.

 

For anyone who has ridden both blue hawk and its former iteration, ninja, how big of a difference do the new trains make for the ride? Is it night and day, or just marginally better?

 

Ninja to Blue Hawk is like Night and Day. I disagree with whoever said that it is a boring ride because it isn't. It is a custom looper with 5 inversions over the water. It still has it's shuffles, but with the new vest restraints, the shuffles don't bruise the sides of your head. You can also see better without the OTSR's. It still isn't a great ride, but it is SO much better than it was and it is actually rideable and re-rideable again.

I agree. I never rode Ninja but I rode Blue Hawk. I enjoyed it and it was pretty smooth for being a Vekoma.

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I really wasn't very wowed by Loch Ness Monster, (surely I'm not alone) but it's so classic, it doesn't take away anything from BGW so I'd hate to see it go.

 

Where did you sit on LNM that it didn't wow you? Because if you rode in the back car and weren't wow'd by the air time (especially on the first drop), I don't know what to say to you.

 

Yeah, there's a lot of really amazing things that have come along in recent years, but sometimes knowing where to sit makes a HUGE difference in the quality of those older coasters.

 

With that said, I also don't think we should forget the "levels" of coasters, and that it's a big deal to some guests. Lets talk about looping coasters at CP:

 

Corkscrew: 3 inversions, 85 foot drop, 48mph

 

Gatekeeper: 6 inversions, 170ft drop, 67mph

 

Maverick: 2 inversions, launch coaster, beyond-vertical drop, 70mph

 

Raptor: 6 inversions, 137ft, 57mph

 

Rougarou: 4 inversions, 145ft, 60mph

 

Valrvn: 3 inversions, 214ft vertical drop, 75mph.

 

Not everyone wants to ride those "huge" coasters. If you're graduating from Iron Dragon/Gemini to the next big thrill, and want to try going upside down, you either get on corkscrew, or your next "logical" options are Maverick (which many consider the most intense ride in the park), Rougarou (very intimidating to coaster newbies), or Valrvn (extremely intimidating to newbies).

 

Corkscrew fills a role, so if it ever goes, it really needs to be replaced with something else that fills that exact role. That's not even getting into the height discussion, because a lot of adults find themselves in "new coaster" territory too. However yes, the B&Ms and the like do have very tall height requirements. I once had to turn a legal adult away from Alpengeist because they weren't tall enough :/

I can't agree with you more here, because this was exactly how I felt growing up. The first logical loopers were the Disney coasters, followed by, yup, small Arrows. It then took a relatively small B&M (Batman) to get me onto bigger rides. While we don't find many Arrow coasters all that exciting or memorable anymore, they're a well-needed stepping stone into the world of inverting rides. Without them, it would have been nigh-on impossible to get me on an inverting coaster.

 

It's like an old 90's Ford Taurus. Ostensibly, it's a blight on cars as a fun concept. It's a rattlebox, it's boring, it's uninspired, sure. But it's still useful for just as many reasons as a shiny new Mustang, even if they're not immediately apparent to you, specifically. It's someone's first car. Their first four door. Their reliable daily. It matters. And it still works. So why kill it?

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I honestly feel like they've already done this (in a much more cost effective way) with Blue Hawk at SFOG. I don't understand why every park with a rough Arrow looper doesn't buy these trains.

 

Yeah, that's probably a really good starting point.

 

For anyone who has ridden both blue hawk and its former iteration, ninja, how big of a difference do the new trains make for the ride? Is it night and day, or just marginally better?

 

Ninja to Blue Hawk is like Night and Day. I disagree with whoever said that it is a boring ride because it isn't. It is a custom looper with 5 inversions over the water. It still has it's shuffles, but with the new vest restraints, the shuffles don't bruise the sides of your head. You can also see better without the OTSR's. It still isn't a great ride, but it is SO much better than it was and it is actually rideable and re-rideable again.

Definitely agree with this! It went from something I rode once a season just to torture myself, to something that I now usually ride and find enjoyable. It is now comfortable enough to me to be a fun ride, and that’s a huge improvement!

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I really wasn't very wowed by Loch Ness Monster, (surely I'm not alone) but it's so classic, it doesn't take away anything from BGW so I'd hate to see it go.

 

Where did you sit on LNM that it didn't wow you? Because if you rode in the back car and weren't wow'd by the air time (especially on the first drop), I don't know what to say to you.

 

Yeah, there's a lot of really amazing things that have come along in recent years, but sometimes knowing where to sit makes a HUGE difference in the quality of those older coasters.

 

With that said, I also don't think we should forget the "levels" of coasters, and that it's a big deal to some guests. Lets talk about looping coasters at CP:

 

Corkscrew: 3 inversions, 85 foot drop, 48mph

 

Gatekeeper: 6 inversions, 170ft drop, 67mph

 

Maverick: 2 inversions, launch coaster, beyond-vertical drop, 70mph

 

Raptor: 6 inversions, 137ft, 57mph

 

Rougarou: 4 inversions, 145ft, 60mph

 

Valrvn: 3 inversions, 214ft vertical drop, 75mph.

 

Not everyone wants to ride those "huge" coasters. If you're graduating from Iron Dragon/Gemini to the next big thrill, and want to try going upside down, you either get on corkscrew, or your next "logical" options are Maverick (which many consider the most intense ride in the park), Rougarou (very intimidating to coaster newbies), or Valrvn (extremely intimidating to newbies).

 

Corkscrew fills a role, so if it ever goes, it really needs to be replaced with something else that fills that exact role. That's not even getting into the height discussion, because a lot of adults find themselves in "new coaster" territory too. However yes, the B&Ms and the like do have very tall height requirements. I once had to turn a legal adult away from Alpengeist because they weren't tall enough :/

 

 

Well, I don't know what to say, LNM certainly isn't bad, I didn't dislike it, just I didn't really care much for it either. I know for a fact I'm not alone in feeling that, both from general discussions and its 212th ranking on the last MH. IDK, was a nice but underwhelming ride. Its just my opinion so I'm not gunna get to into it, especially since this was not the main thrust of the post. If you're curious though, I just found it kind of slow/poorly paced and doesn't do much. I guess that's just it, its lower on the coaster ladder, you are 100% right there are different levels, each serves a purpose and not all wanna ride the biggies, well some do want that and just are neutral on LNM or Corkscrew. Thats all

 

Anyway, Corkscrew take it or leave, either way I don't bother with it. Much more intrigued by whats happening to MS! When I go in June, curious how much more progress will be done

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I personally haven't had the chance to ride Blue Hawk at SFOG, but I can tell you that without a doubt, Tennessee Tornado has to be one of the smoothest Arrows out there. I don't know what Arrow did back in 1998 to make it any different than their previous custom loopers, but even after all these years, it still packs a punch.

Computers started advancing very rapidly in the 90s.

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I personally haven't had the chance to ride Blue Hawk at SFOG, but I can tell you that without a doubt, Tennessee Tornado has to be one of the smoothest Arrows out there. I don't know what Arrow did back in 1998 to make it any different than their previous custom loopers, but even after all these years, it still packs a punch.

Computers started advancing very rapidly in the 90s.

 

And Alan Schilke (the guy behind X2 and the current RMCs) designed it, too.

 

Back to Corkscrew, if a retracking was necessary, would it be possible for Chance Rides to give it a total retracking and then for Vekoma to give it vest restraints/Sunkid Heege to give it lap bars?

 

We've seen how smooth Lightning Run was, why can't Corkscrew be like that?

 

Also, in terms of looks, it wouldn't really matter, since the track shape looks so similar, the GP wouldn't notice.

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They won't spend money re-tracking Corkscrew, nor should they. Honestly I just think they'll leave it as is, but the most we can realistically ask for is those Blue Hawk restraints.

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Back to Corkscrew, if a retracking was necessary, would it be possible for Chance Rides to give it a total retracking and then for Vekoma to give it vest restraints/Sunkid Heege to give it lap bars?

 

We've seen how smooth Lightning Run was, why can't Corkscrew be like that?

 

Also, in terms of looks, it wouldn't really matter, since the track shape looks so similar, the GP wouldn't notice.

 

Now I'm not saying they would do this, nor should they (and I hated Corkscrew) because they could probably just get the newer trains/restraints and mostly solve the issue without losing the original layout, but speaking hypothetically, if they were to do this, wouldn't the park want to advertise it and want the majority of park goers to know that it is a retracked, smoother, better ride? What would be the point of doing it otherwise if not to advertise it and get people to come ride it?

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They're not going to spend the money to retrack a ride with a crappy layout in the first place. When you get to spending that amount the ROI is so low if they're not trying to market it as a new ride that they're better off just building a new ride. Corkscrew is famous because of its history and what it means for the park (along with its looks), not for being a 40mph tiny looping coaster.

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I only rode Corkscrew once in 2014 to get the credit and I didn't think it was that bad. I've certainly had much worse rides on other Arrows

 

I feel the same way. Corkscrew is bad, but it's not THAT bad. I usually ride it once per visit.

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There's an image circulating of metal detectors outside the front gate area. I'm not sharing it because I'm not exactly sure who took it or if it was authorized but it seems like a mundane enough issue that we can bring it up. This is definitely not a surprise but they're going to need to find a really efficient way to do it, especially at the resort gate for early entry.

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There's an image circulating of metal detectors outside the front gate area. I'm not sharing it because I'm not exactly sure who took it or if it was authorized but it seems like a mundane enough issue that we can bring it up. This is definitely not a surprise but they're going to need to find a really efficient way to do it, especially at the resort gate for early entry.

 

When we were there last spring, my wife was very pleasantly surprised to see no metal detectors and also she saw people bringing in bottles of water and wagons for their kids to ride in. We were really impressed with all of this, however, I can't see it remaining that way for much longer unfortunately...

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I only rode Corkscrew once in 2014 to get the credit and I didn't think it was that bad. I've certainly had much worse rides on other Arrows

 

I feel the same way. Corkscrew is bad, but it's not THAT bad. I usually ride it once per visit.

Not that it's so bad, other arrows were deff worse, just ya know it isn't that good, not enough for me to ride it again. I just don't bother.

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There's an image circulating of metal detectors outside the front gate area. I'm not sharing it because I'm not exactly sure who took it or if it was authorized but it seems like a mundane enough issue that we can bring it up. This is definitely not a surprise but they're going to need to find a really efficient way to do it, especially at the resort gate for early entry.

 

From my understanding, the company is doing metal detectors at the main entrance off all parks.

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I only rode Corkscrew once in 2014 to get the credit and I didn't think it was that bad. I've certainly had much worse rides on other Arrows

 

I feel the same way. Corkscrew is bad, but it's not THAT bad. I usually ride it once per visit.

Not that it's so bad, other arrows were deff worse, just ya know it isn't that good, not enough for me to ride it again. I just don't bother.

Right, it's no longer a high-octane thrill ride by today's standards like it was when it opened 4 decades ago, but it's not an objectively bad ride (it's just really short), and it still fills a niche in the CP line-up. And the iconic corkscrews over the midway are beautiful and provide perhaps the best coaster/midway interaction moment in the entire park. Those kinds of design touches help make amusement parks a little bit more fun for everyone, both riders and spectators alike. I'd hate to lose that.

 

And Corkscrew's biggest problem, just like all other old arrow/vekoma multi-loopers, are those damn rigid horse collar OTSR's that seem specifically engineered to induce headaches. If the train change on blue hawk/ninja is as dramatic as people here have reported, then I think such trains could transform a lot of these older arrow rides into perfectly serviceable medium thrill coasters for all of the park-going 6 - 10 year-olds who might feel ready to stand up to the challenge of their very first upside-down coaster. A great amusement park like CP needs to be WAY more than just all extreme thrills all of the time.

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Re-track Corkscrew? Replace the track? Haven't Vekoma and Arrow rides had new track put in with the same or worse results? They can mess with the track all they want. Those structures/track vibrate, no way around it. No good flexion or joints to move. Some suggest the new(er) Vekoma vest restraints. Have you tried those? They're even worse. You don't headbang, but instead are held down AND back by that tightening vest and are shaken to death. Uck!

 

Taer Corkscrew down! But wait! I LOVE Corkscrew - well for a ride or two - that's all I can take. Rip it out, and build a brand-new version (with a figure-8 or something else at the end) by MACK! That would give us the best aspects of Corkscrew: the Corks over the midway (with red lights!!!), and a ride the kids love. MACK can built it with a 42" height requirement.

 

Heck, if MACK does it, everyone would love it. Same height, same inversions, same sequence of elements (plus a longer ending), but with super-comfortable trains.

bfmc.jpg.345bdb3e19320eb87641faba7dafaac7.jpg

Ahhh... the comfort. They can even make half the train those new spinning MACK cars. Or backwards ;)

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I really don't think people understand how little room Corkscrew actually takes up. There's no reason to remove it, it's not in the way of anything and the entire lift hill, first drop, second hill and most of the brake run are over an active maintenance area but because people can drive through the gaps in the supports it's not invasive at all. In addition, the corkscrews are over the midway and the few elements that aren't either over an active maintenance area or an active midway are mostly bordering the edge of the park so closely that the space it's taking up is the equivalent of the width of the track itself (so essentially nothing).

 

See... look. That's why Corkscrew is still running. There's nothing to be gained by removing it. If they wanted to build a new coaster there are plenty of other places they could put it and plenty of other rides they could remove that take up way more space than Corkscrew does. Corkscrew is an unbelievably efficient use of space.

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^I agree with your points, but in the next few years I have a feeling Corkscrew will... as they say "reach the end of it's service life." So, they can put a new Corkscrew in. By MACK, of course. It would be a people eater, more people would like it, and it would reduce lines on Maverick, RMC Mean Schnitzel and High Heel Dragqueen.

 

PS - they could even use the same footings. If they wanted. Like Busch Gardens did with BBW/Verbolten. But we know CP likes brand new things.

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