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Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

P. 1989: Wicked Twister's permanent closure announced!

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There is no evidence that the tunnel is actively being removed. This is actually just a distraction/false flag operation by Tony and the rest of the Cedar Point Illuminati to throw us off the truth of Mean Streak being reopened in 2017.

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Hey - do me a solid...please attribute the source of your photo(s). You know, since we're closed and all.

 

That's the most clever method I've ever seen of getting someone to promote your Twitter page, but I guess that's why you're the PR guy and I'm not. lol

 

Anyway, the source is everyone's favorite park PR guy / TPR member. Go follow him on Twitter. I'm told he's a pretty cool dude.

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Nobody cares about wood / steel coaster ratios besides enthusiasts. As far as everyone else is concerned this will be a wood coaster and will compliment their other wood coasters (Gemeni, Mine Ride and Blue Streak) very nicely.
I happen to be a coaster enthusiast, so I care and was hoping that New Mean Streak would be redone with topper track.
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Nobody cares about wood / steel coaster ratios besides enthusiasts. As far as everyone else is concerned this will be a wood coaster and will compliment their other wood coasters (Gemeni, Mine Ride and Blue Streak) very nicely.
I happen to be a coaster enthusiast, so I care and was hoping that New Mean Streak would be redone with topper track.

 

I have been genuinely curious why all the RMC conversions use the steel ibox track and not their pre-fab wooden topper track like on Outlaw Run and Lightning Rod and other "new" coasters. I guess my question is could they convert an existing wooden coaster and modify the layout using topper track or is there a reason they can't/don't.

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I have been genuinely curious why all the RMC conversions use the steel ibox track and not their pre-fab wooden topper track like on Outlaw Run and Lightning Rod and other "new" coasters. I guess my question is could they convert an existing wooden coaster and modify the layout using topper track or is there a reason they can't/don't.

 

I believe it may be do to marketing reasons. I personally find it easier to sell a "brand new steel" coaster. As opposed to "new wooden coaster" on a wooden coaster that was notorious for not being good. Additionally, if you're going to completely revamp a wooden coaster to this extent, you might as well get the version with the least amount of upkeep (i-box).

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I have been genuinely curious why all the RMC conversions use the steel ibox track and not their pre-fab wooden topper track like on Outlaw Run and Lightning Rod

 

I would assume it's because nobody cares if it's a wood or steel coaster except a few enthusiasts anyway and the steel track is much less expensive to maintain. I'm just making assumptions but I don't think the ROI would be any different and they just choose the cheaper option. Personally I would do the same thing.

 

The two RMC types are barely different anyways. And yeah, a lot of GP thinks of wooden coasters as old fashioned or inferior.

 

If this were true then parks wouldn't be shelling out millions of dollars for new wood coasters. The 3 largest coaster projects in the country that are confirmed to be opening in 2017 are wood coasters. Dollywood just dumped a boatload of money into a new wood coaster, they could have easily built a big B&M steel coaster with that budget, there are tons of wood coasters that are just as popular at their respective parks as their steel counterparts. Since we're just throwing around anecdotal crap now I can confirm that in all of our visits to Great Adventure I've never once heard anyone complaining about El Toro because it's a wood coaster and it has some of the highest ridership numbers in the entire park.

 

And on the subject of anecdotal crap, I'll quote this post I made from a 2015 trip to Knoebels...

 

Speaking of which I'll leave this here...

 

image_13769.thumb.jpg.a3088150bdf0618e502b5893f2585d96.jpg

The line tonight for the brand new, state of the art steel looping coaster.

The line tonight for the brand new, state of the art steel looping coaster.

 

image_13770.thumb.jpg.99ed51f28d75c8e4d446e85133e9898c.jpg

The line for the classic wood coaster that's pushing 70 years old spilling out the entrance. I'm not bashing Impulse, but it's pretty amazing to see everyone (not just enthusiasts) flocking to Phoenix the way they do over a brand new steel coaster.

The line for the classic wood coaster that's pushing 70 years old spilling out the entrance. I'm not bashing Impulse, but it's pretty amazing to see everyone (not just enthusiasts) flocking to Phoenix the way they do over a brand new steel coaster.

 

If a coaster is good then it's good, nobody cares what it's made out of or if it's technically wood or steel.

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The two RMC types are barely different anyways. And yeah, a lot of GP thinks of wooden coasters as old fashioned or inferior.

 

This statement is true for the UK.

 

I'd say this is half-right for the states. Knoebels, Holiday World and Kennywood are the only US parks that have multiple well-maintained wooden coasters. The rest of the gems are spread far, wide, and few between.

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I'd say this is half-right for the states. Knoebels, Holiday World and Kennywood are the only US parks that have multiple well-maintained wooden coasters. The rest of the gems are spread far, wide, and few between.

 

That's the thing (though I'd add a few more parks in to the mix like Hershey). Steel coasters are generally more popular than wood coasters because they're usually better coasters, especially at corporate parks. Good wood coasters are immensely popular attractions though. Rides like El Toro, the Beast, Gold Striker, Outlaw Run, Apocalypse before it sucked, Thunderhead, Boulder Dash and plenty of others are in parks with excellent steel coasters and are still immensely popular rides that generate long lines.

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The two RMC types are barely different anyways. And yeah, a lot of GP thinks of wooden coasters as old fashioned or inferior.

 

This statement is true for the UK.

 

I'd say this is half-right for the states. Knoebels, Holiday World and Kennywood are the only US parks that have multiple well-maintained wooden coasters. The rest of the gems are spread far, wide, and few between.

 

Nah, not true. Six Flags St. Louis, Kings Island, Six Flags Great America, and Michigan's Adventure all count in this, and Camden, Rye, and Stricker's Grove can too. The rides may not be all top tier, but they're well maintained. Indiana Beach is getting back there. Silverwood and Kings Dominion have historically been at times but I can't speak for them right now.

 

Anyways, plenty of wood coasters have gone up in Europe everywhere except the UK. A new wood coaster hasn't opened there in 21 years. I don't think that's because wood is considered "bad", otherwise we wouldn't be seeing Alton Towers building one for 2018. It just didn't fit people's plans, if they had any.

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If this were true then parks wouldn't be shelling out millions of dollars for new wood coasters. The 3 largest coaster projects in the country that are confirmed to be opening in 2017 are wood coasters. Dollywood just dumped a boatload of money into a new wood coaster, they could have easily built a big B&M steel coaster with that budget, there are tons of wood coasters that are just as popular at their respective parks as their steel counterparts. Since we're just throwing around anecdotal crap now I can confirm that in all of our visits to Great Adventure I've never once heard anyone complaining about El Toro because it's a wood coaster and it has some of the highest ridership numbers in the entire park.

 

Well they're usually something like half the price. The expensive ones are a bit of a head-scratcher but they're not too common. El Toro seems like a great product and Intamin probably promoted the heck out of pre-fabs buy nobody bought them. It does make a big line but maybe it had a low attendance effect. I think all 3 of the ones this year are budget-options, especially Invadr which I'd guess is in sub 5 million range. Gravity groups these days seem like they're for parks trying to make the most out of very small budgets, with GCI's dominating the price point just above.

 

If I was a park I'd think I'd want to advertise an RMC as a hybrid for a modern sound. I'm sure the marketing department would know best though.

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I would assume it's because nobody cares if it's a wood or steel coaster except a few enthusiasts anyway and the steel track is much less expensive to maintain. I'm just making assumptions but I don't think the ROI would be any different and they just choose the cheaper option. Personally I would do the same thing.
This makes a lot of sense, but then I have to wonder why there hasn't been an original hybrid (which I've wondered in the past, too), or why RMC has built any wood coasters at all. I think there is some element of parks wanting to have the biggest woodie.
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Cedar Point had a perfect classic coaster, with plenty of real air time, but they sorta... (for lack of a better, not as oft used term) "ruined" it with seat dividers, individual ratcheting lap bars and needless headrests.

 

Yes, it is still popular, and runs well for a coaster that has all that gear added to it, but it's not what it used to be. Blue Streak sailed over those hills... now it fights the track the whole way with that extra weight (200 lbs per seat was the rumor when those ratchet bars were being added to a bunch of woodies in the early 90s). Just look at all the extra structure, most notably the triple extra mid-bents that are added to the majority of the ride (this will also soon happen on Thunderhawk at Dorney, seeing it just got new heavier ratchet bars trains). I worked on the Blue Streak and rode it nearly every day for 3 summers (91-93). It just isn't what it used to be. Sure, many CP fans still claim it's a great ride, but for those of us who grew up on it, I can promise you it's very different now.

 

Of course, we can always hope that by some strange alignment in the universe (perhaps the same alignment that has Revolution at SFMM running with out shoulder bars - a feat that every know-it-all in the industry swore would never EVER happen) they one day could decide a true classic ride is important, and retrofit the ride to make it classic again. Of course, there would probably be a no single rider policy like the Kennywood Thunderbolt, which would be totally worth it in my book. Unfortunately, Cedar Fair seems all about getting rid of any sort of single position lap bars on their formerly classic rides.

 

Recent rescinded classics include High Roller at Valleyfair and Thunderhawk at Dorney (which had seat dividers and head rests added years ago, and now runs with ratchet bars). Sure, they get a small break on insurance costs... but there are still a few parks holding on to their still classic woodies. Cedar Point has the resources to have pretty much whatever they want; it would be nice if they had a "one of everything" collection. Never say never!

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Yes, it is still popular, and runs well for a coaster that has all that gear added to it, but it's not what it used to be. Blue Streak sailed over those hills... now it fights the track the whole way with that extra weight (200 lbs per seat was the rumor when those ratchet bars were being added to a bunch of woodies in the early 90s). Just look at all the extra structure, most notably the triple extra mid-bents that are added to the majority of the ride (this will also soon happen on Thunderhawk at Dorney, seeing it just got new heavier ratchet bars trains).

 

I highly doubt this will be an issue at Dorney. You have to remember that at Cedar Point, the 200 lbs is in addition to the rider in the seat. 200 lbs is probably about the average weight of an adult male so the weight from the restraints is really just replacing the weight that the train would have if it actually had riders in it which it won't because it's at f*cking Dorney.

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I highly doubt this will be an issue at Dorney. You have to remember that at Cedar Point, the 200 lbs is in addition to the rider in the seat. 200 lbs is probably about the average weight of an adult male so the weight from the restraints is really just replacing the weight that the train would have if it actually had riders in it which it won't because it's at f*cking Dorney.

 

The 200lb figure came from all the hardware on the sides and under the train for the ratcheting bars. I also believe the old volvo headrests (which I don't think PTC uses anymore; rather than being of help, they caused minor injuries) had a 40 lb core. Tom Rebbie from PTC told me a couple years ago they will build what ever the park wants. One problem parks have with buzz bars is that the solenoids in the locking unit burns out. The company that supplied PTC with those went out of business, but they purchased their entire remaining supply. There has to be a way to have buzz bars with out the solenoids, but that would cost on research and design...

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(200 lbs per seat was the rumor when those ratchet bars were being added to a bunch of woodies in the early 90s)

 

I have handled PTC train parts and assisted mechanics who do annual tear-downs and rebuilds of our PTC trains; one with single position lap bars, the other with ratchets. While there are certainly some extra beef to the ratchet mechanisms compared to the old buzz bars and single position lap bars, I can't for the life of me come up with an extra 200lbs per seat when comparing the two. A "modern" (hard to say that with a straight face) PTC train with six 4-seat cars is about 12,000 pounds. I doubt if it had single position lap bars, it would weigh 4,800 pounds less. However, with further accessories such as one model of headrests adding 40 pounds per seat, the combined transformation from single-position to the whole nine yards with dividers and headrests might have added on some decent dead weight.

 

There are a variety of reasons to switch from single-position to ratchet bars. I see pros and cons to both when it comes to safety and ride experience. From a maintenance standpoint, the ratchets are much easier to maintain. On a side note, buzz bars, despite having that iconic sound and nostalgic feeling, are also a mechanical annoyance.

Edited by ajfelice
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