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Holiday World (HW) Discussion Thread


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I believe there was a video of Will Koch on a Timberliner train, returning to the station on Voyage. Plenty of fans were excited about the potential of Timberliners, but after riding a few... I'm glad they are not on that ride!

 

Voyage is one of my favorite coasters. I'm also a fan of PTC trains. The peskiest thing about those trains is how the lap bar wraps around the side of your leg, followed by the seat divider. As much as I would LOVE to see Voyage (or any coaster with the same trains) run with out a seat divider and (Nurse) Ratchet bars, I'm not sure if that will ever happen. But whatever the case, they are much more comfortable and roomy than other trains out there - RMC, Timberliner, Millennium Flyers...

 

Plenty of people use the argument "box with wheels" to describe PTC trains, but that is what makes the ride feel like a roller coaster to me. Voyage would lose so much bite with single-bench cars. At a certain height, speed and twistyness, the single bench and/or trailer trains make sense. Like an RMC (trailer) or B&M (single bench AND trailer) or example. Voyage is just on the line of perfection, as is.

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^ Wow, I thought I was alone in my logic about PTC trains.

 

While I've never ridden Voyage, I feel the same way with the PTC trains in Boulder Dash. So many local enthusiasts would love Millennium Flyers to be used on Boulder Dash and wonder why they weren't purchased with the new Wildcat trains.

 

It would take out so much of the intensity of Boulder Dash. Feel like it would lose a huge piece of its vicious bite. I would imagine the same could be said about Voyage based on stats and videos I have seen.

 

I love PTC trains, judge me

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and wonder why they weren't purchased with the new Wildcat trains.

 

SO BUMMED Wildcat got those GCI trains. Ugh. Goodbye airtime, goodbye wild nature... I mean, sure the track may have been needing a replacement, but those trains!? Uck. And you can bet if GCI had ANYTHING to do with 'redesigning' or 'modifying' the profile at all, it ain't Wildcat anymore. GCI has a way of moving ledgers just a few inches here and there, and completely nuking any airtime in places. But I guess that's all a different thread...

 

But it is relevant! As Legend is a top 5 woodie to me, and my favorite at Holiday World, we can look at the work GCI did to it. The first drop *pop* at the breakover is gone. It's still fun, but the airtime is almost completely gone in that spot. I will say that the rest of the ride, I have personally warmed up to, but did they really have to give their signature by removing the awesome pop of air on the first drop!? Thank the maker it didn't get GCI trains.

 

The thing that ruins PTCs reputation, in my opinion, are those L-ratchet bars and seat dividers. So savor the few we have left with buzz bars and no seat divider! The number gets smaller every year. It's the times we live in...

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I agree with GCI doing the track. Yankee Cannonball at Canobie Lake Park lost some amazing, powerful airtime and made the once spectacular classic coaster into a mediocre one... oh well.

 

I'm extremely happy Holiday World had kept the PTC trains on all their wooden coasters. They certainly make a difference.

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I agree with GCI doing the track. Yankee Cannonball at Canobie Lake Park lost some amazing, powerful airtime and made the once spectacular classic coaster into a mediocre one... oh well.

 

Funny you would mention that, as Yankee Cannonball is the prime example. I was out there 2 years ago and almost every single hill had little or no airtime. When I took pictures along the ride from the parking lot, I could see the bolt holes where the ledgers used to be. It seems GCI nuked nearly every single hill!

 

Makes me that much happier Holiday World has PTCs on all of their world-class woodies! Now about the buzz bars teehee... As much as I love Raven, it was even better with them. And think about Legend would be even more awesome than it is!

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I wonder how the new PTC 360 trains would ride?

I'm wondering this as well. No one seems to mention them, and it almost seems like they would be a good compromise between the PTC experience and the good tracking of Millennium Flyers. Plus I think they look cool.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't PTC trains but more wear and tear on the track because they're heavier then Timberliners and Millennium Flyers? Does the new PTC train also suffer from this? I still think they're a phenomenal compromise but I still love me some good classic PTC trains

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Any reason the Voyage couldn't use Intamin trains?

 

Ewww... awful suggestion. The thought of riding Voyage with super-tight plastic bucket seats and staple-ing lap bars. No thank you. (sorry BigBad, meant no offense to you. It was just my initial reaction!)

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't PTC trains but more wear and tear on the track because they're heavier then Timberliners and Millennium Flyers?

 

I'm not sure if the weight is the issue more so than their tracking limitations. If you watch a PTC train go through a tight turn, you will often notice the cars shuffling laterally. This is because they are maxing out on articulation capabilities. Evidence of their lack of performance on modern layouts is also seen in winter rehabs. NDT testing often yields several welds and parts needing repaired. While spending a winter working in a shop, I have personally seen metal strips from where the wheels are located have semi-circle wear marks on them because the wheels are articulating beyond what they were designed for.

 

The common dialogue between PTC and the park is when discussing mechanical issues, "Your track is too intense." Luis, who does track work on our ride and around the country, says to us every year, "When are you getting rid of those trains?" All of the shuffling and limited articulation compared to other designs puts quite the beating on the modern wood coaster layout.

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^But man, those PTCs give great rides.

 

That rougher ride is what makes it for me. Even when brand-new, Voyage had a built-in wildness that is part of the ride. I would say Ravine Flyer 2 as well. They seem to take PTCs to the very edge of their performance, which is perfect for me... I know it's not best for maintenance, and of course GCI and GG would love to sell new trains.

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I also remember hearing that the heavier PTC trains put more stress on a ride. When The Boss was new I remember reading somewhere (for whatever reason I think it was our local newspaper, and looking back I'm surprised they included the level of detail) that they were initially having trouble getting the Gerstlauer trains to complete the circuit and put the PTCs from Screamin Eagle on The Boss for media day. If I remember correctly it was said to run very well, but that they couldn't keep PTCs on it because they would cause too much damage from the extra weight. For what it's worth.

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The PTCs by themselves aren't too heavy... but so many PTC trains started getting those individual ratcheting lap bars, seat dividers and head rests over the years. THAT caused me a beloved woodie to fall victim to heavier wear and tear, which resulted in more trim brakes, rough rides, etc.

 

When the ratchet bars were new in 1990, the word was the associated mechanisms with the bars was an extra 200lbs per seat (!?). Add to that a headrest with a 40lb metal core. All that weight wasn't factored in decades ago when the standard wooden coaster structure was used.

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and wonder why they weren't purchased with the new Wildcat trains.

 

SO BUMMED Wildcat got those GCI trains. Ugh. Goodbye airtime, goodbye wild nature... I mean, sure the track may have been needing a replacement, but those trains!? Uck. And you can bet if GCI had ANYTHING to do with 'redesigning' or 'modifying' the profile at all, it ain't Wildcat anymore. GCI has a way of moving ledgers just a few inches here and there, and completely nuking any airtime in places. But I guess that's all a different thread...

 

But it is relevant! As Legend is a top 5 woodie to me, and my favorite at Holiday World, we can look at the work GCI did to it. The first drop *pop* at the breakover is gone. It's still fun, but the airtime is almost completely gone in that spot. I will say that the rest of the ride, I have personally warmed up to, but did they really have to give their signature by removing the awesome pop of air on the first drop!? Thank the maker it didn't get GCI trains.

 

The thing that ruins PTCs reputation, in my opinion, are those L-ratchet bars and seat dividers. So savor the few we have left with buzz bars and no seat divider! The number gets smaller every year. It's the times we live in...

I'm not the only one who likes Legend better than all the other coasters at Holiday World! I love that it still has the old PTC trains, I was scared they were going to get new GCI trains with the retrack. I feel like if it got those new trains it wouldn't be as insane as it is. Part of the thing that makes Legend super intense is that it absolutely HAULS through the helix and those turns at the end so you are getting flung around, plus there are four or five places where I flew up against my lapbar. GCI trains are lighter so it probably wouldn't be as fast or intense. I would say the Legend is my third favorite wooden roller coaster behind Mystic Timbers and the Beast.

I would like to see a park buy a couple of PTC 360 trains, just to see how they ride. If not only because they look amazing! I absolutely love the eagle train from IAAPA.

I also want to add about those GCI redos. The one on Ghost Rider was great, the ride has a lot of airtime and is an overall great ride. And of course the one on the Legend was great. But as you guys said above it totally ruined the airtime on Yankee Cannonball. It also nuked the airtime on Timberwolf at Worlds of Fun. I've ridden it many times over the years. Before the retrack it was a *little* bit rough, I don't see what everybody hated about it, it wasn't that bad. But even though it was a bit rough, it had some ejector airtime in places. The last time I rode it was in 2015 when they had retracked about half of the course. It had little to no airtime. It was smooth but it wasn't very exciting anymore.

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^When Timberwolf was new in 1989, it was quite simply... the best roller coaster I ever rode. Buzz bars, crazy airtime and many hills/drops and otherwise airtime on EVERY hill and some of the turns were incredible. It was good in 90 as well, but when I went back in 95 - although still fun - it lost so much of it's original kick. Same deal with Texas Giant and Georgia Cyclone, except those were one year later.

 

I don't know how the PTC 360 trains would work out. They will automatically be heavier, aren't there more wheels per train? And more front panels. The higher rate of articulation would reduce much of what we love so much about those woodies ... how they hit the curves. The airtime would also go down; note the legend of the "3rd seat" on many famous woodies (Phoenix is the first thing that comes to my mind!) Even though the HW woodies are 2 benchers, that torque effect would reduce greatly with one bench trains.

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Millenium Flyers are actually heavier than PTC's. GCI even discussed that being a challenge on HP Wildcat, saying that when they decided to switch to MF's they had to shave about 40 lbs of weight of each car to get the weight to match the previous PTC's. Of course MFs also track way better and have a suspension system, so that likely takes bite out of a ride too.

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I don't know how the PTC 360 trains would work out. They will automatically be heavier, aren't there more wheels per train? And more front panels. The higher rate of articulation would reduce much of what we love so much about those woodies ... how they hit the curves. The airtime would also go down; note the legend of the "3rd seat" on many famous woodies (Phoenix is the first thing that comes to my mind!) Even though the HW woodies are 2 benchers, that torque effect would reduce greatly with one bench trains.

 

Unfortunately, as has been discussed many times, parks don't cater to enthusiasts. And as much as enthusiasts love the shuffling around the corners, what's the GP's perspective? The continued use of 3-bench PTCs across the industry and how they take the corners on newer, more intense coasters, can increase wear/tear and the stigma the GP have against woodies. The ACErs might picket outside the front gates, but more GP might come off with a smile.

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Unfortunately, as has been discussed many times, parks don't cater to enthusiasts.

 

Well geez, never heard that one before. I'll be sure to keep my experiences and opinion to myself from here on out. NOT!

 

/end sarcasm. I mean really, this is a discussion forum.

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OK, those of you who frequent HW, we're thinking of a day trip Labor Day weekend (probably on Sunday, try to beat the church people) Are the crowds down a bit now that school is back and people aren't traveling as much or am I completely kidding myself that the water park won't be insane Labor Day weekend?

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