Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

[coasterbill]

In 2013 accommodation revenues were 127 million. Last year they were $152 million. That is $25 more million per year and what has changed in that time.

A very strong period of economic growth combined with a cyclical business that historically follows the market, a massive multi-year 50 million dollar upgrade to their most expensive hotel, a huge upgrade and re-brand to their Express hotel with tons of new rooms and inflation?

 

A coaster every 2 years.

Oh.

[RCTycoonClassic]

You forgot the demolition of Sandcastle Suites

[coasterbill]

What about it?

[southpuddle]

Bill, obviously the 500 footer is going to have a giant support structure there at Sandcastle and another giant structure where Cedars used to be. Anyone can see this!

[Intamin_coyote]

seems legit

 

[RCTycoonClassic]

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:03 pm

 

What about it?

 

^^

 

Just you forgot that to.

 

Renovaccommodations. Express opened in 2017, flat revenues though for accommodations.

 

Breakers was 2018 and up 6% with sandcastle gone.

 

So your renovations and expansion of breakers account for a 6% increase during that time.

 

I'm talking about a plus 20% increase since gatekeeper that couldn't have happened from renovations and expansions because it wasnt in effect until 2017 and 2018.

 

So worst case scenario 14% increase if you say all other increases are from breakers, breakers Express, and sandcastle demolition.

 

14% minimum came from somewhere else.

[JG-77]

Where are these numbers coming from? I recall it being mentioned that Cedar Fair doesn't typically release individual park figures, just chain-wide figures.

[coasterbill]

^Given the signup date and sudden surge of activity I'm almost completely convinced this is a troll account.

 

The coasters didn't hurt, but the economy and cyclical nature of the company combined with the millions of dollars they dumped into hotels are clearly the driving force here. Plus you're looking at 5 years of inflation which helps to pad it a bit...

 

This really isn't complicated.

[kenban]

Here is how Cedar Fair defines out of park revenue. “Out-of-park revenues are defined as revenues from resort, marina, sponsorship, online transaction fees charged to customers and all other out-of-park operations.”

 

Feels like there are way too much lumped into one category to try to act like it’s all Cedar Point. Also 3 other parks have camp grounds, and there is the hotel at Knott’s.

[Intamin_coyote]

Where are these numbers coming from? I recall it being mentioned that Cedar Fair doesn't typically release individual park figures, just chain-wide figures.

 

You would be recalling correctly.

 

While it is true that quarterly and annual earnings reports are public record (in accordance with being publicly-traded company), as far as I can tell there is no break-down by park.

 

https://s2.q4cdn.com/170666959/files/doc_financials/annual/2018/81ac11d7-464c-4431-b70f-6e5dc5ec6439.pdf

 

 

I asked RCT to post a source for the numbers he's giving, but according to him they're "easy to look up". Yeah, ok.

 

He's pulling these stats from god knows where...

 

Sigh. Idk why I'm even humoring this probable troll as much as I am....

 

(The season can't get here soon enough )

[RCTycoonClassic]

Yep,

 

I'm a roller coaster enthusiast troll. Come on! Just look up their financials.

 

Yes there are campgrounds, yes there is a 320 room hotel in California. But please, are you telling me that the 1600 rooms at CP aren't their biggest source of out of park revenue. If you think it is something else you are delusional. Heck it was said above, why would they spend 50 million on renovation and expansions at CO resorts if it all came from campgrounds at Carowinds. Or why would they be putting up hotels at Carowinds and Canadas Qonderland if it didn't make financial sense.

 

Because the concept Is proven. I will post financials from 2012 on tomorrow. And you tell me that it is wrong.

[RCTycoonClassic]

Here you go.

 

Up 28 million vs. 2013.

 

And as stated up 6% 2017 to 2108 due to accomidations.

 

Not broken down by park, but obviously not campgrounds at Carowinds. It is because of 1600 rooms at CP.

 

Sorry if you dont get it. Just posting truths. It is not a bad thing and not sure why CP making tons of money because of accommodations is so taboo for this thread. Bottom line, build it and they will come.

[kenban]

Nothing that your showing changes the fact that you do not know how much of that is actually even from hotels, let alone the ones at only Cedar Point. Go back and look at older annual reports, compare the accommodations and other, with the out of park spending category which you are trying to use. The difference between the two is huge, 2011 for instance, accommodations and other was 83 million, while out of park was 117.5 million. In that year alone it was at least 34.5 million dollars from non-hotel out of park sources and likely more because we have no way to determine how much of the 83 million was purely accommodations. There is a LOT of money from other out of park sources which you have no way to separate.

 

That category is not mostly the accommodations at Cedar Point, there is just too much other stuff in it for you to use it to make the kinds of comparisons your trying to make.

[RCTycoonClassic]

Alright, there is no point to this.

 

There is another line on financials towards the top that you are referring to that was $177 million in 2018 that is accommodations and other add on spending.

 

How do I know out of park spending is for accommodation. Because they said it. It will post it here again. "Out of park spending up 6%, duty to higher hotel occupancy levels and higher rates." That's it, they said it.

 

Of course I cant prove from cedar point. But would it stand to reason that if you property that has 1600 rooms would effect that more than say, a campground at carowinds that is significantly cheaper per night. Or a 320 room hotel. It is just a guess, and yes you could argue against it. But come on, be reasonable....of course that bump came from CP. That's why they spent the money on renovation and expansion, that's why they are putting more hotels on other properties.

[coasterbill]

I hope they get a 2020 coaster and it's a Delirious clone. I feel like I could actually die happy at that point.

[Canobie Coaster]

Aim higher. They need the World's Tallest Loop Coaster. 2020 is a big year.

[kenban]

Alright, there is no point to this.

 

There is another line on financials towards the top that you are referring to that was $177 million in 2018 that is accommodations and other add on spending.

 

How do I know out of park spending is for accommodation. Because they said it. It will post it here again. "Out of park spending up 6%, duty to higher hotel occupancy levels and higher rates." That's it, they said it.

 

Of course I cant prove from cedar point. But would it stand to reason that if you property that has 1600 rooms would effect that more than say, a campground at carowinds that is significantly cheaper per night. Or a 320 room hotel. It is just a guess, and yes you could argue against it. But come on, be reasonable....of course that bump came from CP. That's why they spent the money on renovation and expansion, that's why they are putting more hotels on other properties.

 

That is ONE year in which we know the increase was due to the hotels, I am happy to concede that it was likely due to Cedar Point, and likely a lot bigger than 6%. The problem is that we have no idea how the hotels did in the other years because without more quotes like this we do not have enough information to separate those numbers. My point was that we do not have an accurate reflection of the amount made by JUST the hotels. In 2011 for instance like my numbers show 30% and likely more of the out of park revenue came from sources other than the hotels.

 

I will also agree there is no point to this because you do not seem to understand that this category is way too broad to be used in this way. There is more than just hotels stuck in it, we have the marina which sells fuel, the restaurants outside of Knotts, the gift shops outside of Knotts, sponsorship deals which would include the funds paid by Coca-Cola for exclusivity.

 

For instance how do you remove the change from Red Gold to Heinz which occured in 2015? This is a sponsorship deal the one with Red Gold was for 5 years and ended in 2014, did the chain receive less or more money, is it per a year or a lump sum? No details of the transactions were released as far as I know, so how can you possibly correct for changes like this.

[RCTycoonClassic]

I guess I'll just keep posting statements then.

 

2017 accommodations flat, just like I surmised. But wait they state that that is the primary source of out of park revenue. So no, I cant quantify it because I am not their accountant. But if their primary source of out of park revenue is accommodations, would it be safe to say that their primary park with accommodation would effect this line more than say a secondary contributor to this number. And I would consider accommodations the Marina as well, people go in and out all the time. Yes gas would count too, just like the omelette at Perkins would. After all, you wouldn't be eating that omelette if you weren't at Breakers.

[coasterbill]

I don't even know what point you're trying to make and I don't care. We all know that hotels make money. How about a cash bet on a new 2020 coaster? Any takers?

[RCTycoonClassic]

I'm in. What to bet on.....if there is one?, what kind? Where?

 

My point is simple. The plan of a coaster every 2 years at CP is extremely lucrative, so I am on the 2020 train for sure.

[coasterbill]

if there is one?

Yes

 

what kind?

Any adult coaster not made by Larson.

 

Where?

Cedar Point.

[Intamin_coyote]

Well I mean, I guess for the sake of the #thrillzz I hope we're wrong and that they're right ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Honestly, I don't think I'm going to concern myself much further with CP's 2020 anyway, considering my true KI-fanboy self is already hella amped for the definite B&M and potential giga we're getting next year.

[Diamondbacker27]

Since we're pretty positive KI is getting a B&M for 2020, what is the likelihood that both of Cedar Fairs Ohio parks are getting a new 20-30 million dollar coaster in the same year? I'd say not too likely. It's okay to not get a new coaster every other year. If you don't expect so much you won't be disappointed.

[Intamin_coyote]

Like I've said, outside of bringing X-Flight over from GL in 2007, never has Cedar Fair opened a new coaster at both parks in the same year.

 

And yes, I would agree its okay to not have a new coaster every other year, especially considering they just got what some are calling "the best coaster ever built" (without hyperbole).

 

Wasn't able to make it to the CP last season, but I won't be surprised if SV takes over Toro for my #1 overall. In fact, I might be surprised if it doesn't.

[prozach626]

I guess I'll just keep posting statements then.

Can you just not? Even from your point of view it's all speculation. At some point you just have to agree to disagree.

 

How about a cash bet on a new 2020 coaster? Any takers?

Bruh. You seriously just stole my next post.

 

 

We can argue over the likelihood of Cedar Point constructing a new roller coaster all day long. But, one thing most of us can agree on is that lately there has been a strong correlation between new members and obnoxious posts.