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How much Faster/Taller can we get?


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^Where exactly are you getting your information. This is the first time I've heard of FR launching slower than 149mph. And the trims don't matter. Just because it slows it down right after the launch doesn't negate the fact that it goes 149mph (which it does, not 110-120).

 

Yes, perplexing..

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Cable launches tend to slow down before releasing the train-they die off a bit. It hits 149, but not at the end of the launch. Same as KK and TTD. And the trims are AFTER the launch, on the hill. They don't slow the launch down, in other words.

 

Where's your info coming from? Can Robb verify that Rossa isn't up-to-speed?

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Another important facotr to remember is that the cost of steel has risen a lot the last couple of years. Probably one of the main factors, just producing something like Kingda Ka would be way more expensive today! There is a reason we have been seeing a lot of short and smaller coasters lately (high raw material prices combines with a worse economy for parks)

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As somebody said earlier, I think they will go higher than Kingda Ka at some point, but I think it will be as some kind of standalone attraction at a casino or something of that nature. I wouldn't be surprised to see something where a simple coaster drops off the top of a very tall building/casino, brakes and unloads at ground level, and returns via an elevator system to a station at the top of the building (think how most water slides work but in coaster form and on a much larger scale). I can only assume it would reduce expenses in terms of maintenance (launch systems on particularly large and fast coasters seem to faulty these days), structure, and design, and would simultaneously break records and draw in large crowds. Or maybe I'm just dreaming and this belongs in that ideas thread haha...

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What I meant by Formula Rossa not breaking KK's record is that, not only does it launch SLOWER than expected, but the trims just slow the launch down more...

 

Huh?? This doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Are you trying to say that the train is being launched and being slowed down at the same time?

 

With this in mind, FR technically doesn't own the record, seeing as the trims and the slower launch factor in.

 

Factor in what? If what you say is true, what is there to factor in? If its a slower launch than 149mph, then so be it.

 

Cable launches tend to slow down before releasing the train-they die off a bit. It hits 149, but not at the end of the launch.

This doesn't make sense either, why does maximum velocity have to happen at the end of the launch??

 

Etiher way, unless someone has a digital or radar speedometer readout for Formula Rossa VS. Kingda Ka, I think speculation is obsolete.

 

Will we see a coaster Faster and Taller? Absolutely, only a matter of time, market, finance, and buyer.

*whisper* If you build it, they will come.
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The height and speed isn't the problem, it's the G-Forces. Sure they can go taller and faster, but these rides would be much larger and much more expensive.

 

G-Forces is not a problem at all! if you just make a gentle accelleration, the G-Forces will not be that extreme.

I think the problem is in the launching system, they will need to be more durable and strong. Also the tracks needs to be stronger as well as the train and the trainwheels!

 

And i think we are gonna break both the speed, - and height record some day!

 

Just use a steep cable lift as opposed to a launch,granted both MF & I305 use a 45 degree lift I don't think it's be practical to use a vertical lift ala feranheit at HP for most installations though.Just for reference how steep is the lift angle on the B&M dive coasters?

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^^^Forgive me, I didn't write what I meant to. It was the acceleration forces that die off somewhat from the initial push. Regardless of when the maximum speed is reached. I must've gone off of a whim that they lose energy as they go on (the catchar slowing ever so slightly), and then the train slows slightly due to friction. I really have no idea why I wrote that earlier though.

Pardon my apparent ignorance.

Gosh-I really need to preview what I comment more often...

 

But yes, the speculation is rather pointless.

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^Where exactly are you getting your information. This is the first time I've heard of FR launching slower than 149mph. And the trims don't matter. Just because it slows it down right after the launch doesn't negate the fact that it goes 149mph (which it does, not 110-120).

 

Yes, I would like to know where this info is coming from as well.

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For drops and elements that slow the coaster way down, increasing height produces diminishing returns of speed. Which you can look at as increasing height doesn't require that much more speed, but the heights being reached already are awesome enough for humans to probably not get accustomed to.

 

A big limitation is wheels, as shown with I305 (if it wasn't already with MF), past a point it becomes limited what you can do with all that speed. Speed reduces the forces the wheels can take, further aggravated by duration of force-speed and complexity of movements (curves vs. hills, etc.). Another limitation is eyeballs, when you have to wear goggles or maybe even look at partially enclosing the riders, it's like putting in earplugs before cranking the volume.

 

One thing, I'd like to see larger looping coasters, I think the B&M dive machines are currently the tallest? I haven't seen a table of largest looping coasters. But the point would be to do some things not possible at current speeds. I think there are a lot of things still to be done more interesting (to me) than exceeding 128 MPH/450' .

 

Just to throw out some ideas I've had: a slow-motion "floatline" corkscrew, think a big floaty hill except twisted. Emulation of suspended coaster movements with a conventional track, including exaggerated ones a real suspended couldn't recover from. So much is possible through simulation that would be impossible otherwise, imagine complete freedom of creation of movements.... Increased TOTAL heights, for example a 150' hill on a hill (ground), later going a valley, total 300'. A coaster where the speed starts out slowly meandering downhill, building speed and going through tight then larger curves, peaking at a point at the bottom of the hill, then launched back to the top for high-speed extreme. Improved "junior" or intermediate coasters, more fun less intimidation. Intertwining/synchronizing 2 coasters, for example a small coaster soaring over and around elements of a big one; everyone would still want to ride both.

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Just to throw out some ideas I've had: a slow-motion "floatline" corkscrew, think a big floaty hill except twisted. Emulation of suspended coaster movements with a conventional track, including exaggerated ones a real suspended couldn't recover from. So much is possible through simulation that would be impossible otherwise, imagine complete freedom of creation of movements.... Increased TOTAL heights, for example a 150' hill on a hill (ground), later going a valley, total 300'.

 

Like a zero-G roll and a bigger Phantom's Revenge?

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What I meant by Formula Rossa not breaking KK's record is that, not only does it launch SLOWER than expected, but the trims just slow the launch down more...

 

 

With this in mind, FR technically doesn't own the record, seeing as the trims and the slower launch factor in.

 

 

As of now, the fastest FR has launched was in the 110-120 range. That's about 8 mph slower than Kingda Ka, but who's counting?

 

 

I'll remember this the next time I am caught speeding....officer, I was only doing 100mph for like a split second, so surely I can't be done for that speed.......................................

 

If FR hits 149mph even for a micro second, it has the record......... I think we have a KK fanboy in our midst that doesn't want to admit his fav coaster no longer holds the record..........

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Don't get me wrong, I actually HATE Kingda Ka.

 

It's my home coaster, but I like TTD much more (Lapbars instead of OTSRs, anyone? ).

 

My point is, the first month or so, everyone was claiming that FR didn't hit 149 mph.

 

 

Apparently, this is wrong...

 

 

Sorry about that. GP is playing tricks on me.

 

 

And to be fair, I WANTED Ring Racer to break the record back in '08. That was quite a disappoint, huh?

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The height and speed isn't the problem, it's the G-Forces. Sure they can go taller and faster, but these rides would be much larger and much more expensive.

 

G-Forces is not a problem at all! if you just make a gentle accelleration, the G-Forces will not be that extreme.

I think the problem is in the launching system, they will need to be more durable and strong. Also the tracks needs to be stronger as well as the train and the trainwheels!

 

And i think we are gonna break both the speed, - and height record some day!

 

Just use a steep cable lift as opposed to a launch,granted both MF & I305 use a 45 degree lift I don't think it's be practical to use a vertical lift ala feranheit at HP for most installations though.Just for reference how steep is the lift angle on the B&M dive coasters?

I believe Griffon and Sheikra also have 45 degree lifts.

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The proposed stratosphere ride was supposed to max out at 120 mph from a 750 ft drop, so it seems like anything taller than about the height of Kingda Ka would likely hit terminal velocity on the way down, unless the trains were either fully enclosed or redesigned to force the riders in a more aerodynamic posture, like a flying coaster position.

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I saw a program (or perhaps read an article, I don't remember) on Superman at SFMM. One of the problems they had to work out in designing it was coming up with an adhesive that could hold the polyurethane "tires" to the steel wheels at insanely high RPMs. The faster the cars go, the more RPMs the wheels do and the hotter the wheels get. Heat breaks down the adhesive and there was a danger of the car literally losing the tire off the wheel. They solved the problem with a new adhesive and much larger wheels (which means lower RPMs).

 

So it could be that in order to get significantly faster than Rossa, it might not just be the cost or the windshields or the G-forces that limit what can be done at the moment... it might be the wheels.

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The proposed stratosphere ride was supposed to max out at 120 mph from a 750 ft drop, so it seems like anything taller than about the height of Kingda Ka would likely hit terminal velocity on the way down, unless the trains were either fully enclosed or redesigned to force the riders in a more aerodynamic posture, like a flying coaster position.

 

The "Car" on the Stratosphere tower ride was a single enclosed car, A little bigger than the ones on S:EFK. So a single small car , could reach only that speed. The other part of this , is simply the fact it was submitted 3 times varying from 750ft, down to 540,then down to 315. due to the neighbors not agreeing with it. The ride was going to be supremely noisy. I beam track is NOT a good concept for noise.

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So the question is, how far can we go with coaster speed and height? Is Kingda Ka the limit of coaster speed and height?

 

You can go as high and fast as you can afford. Bullet Trains do 260 mph or so. You're price and acceleration limited, not height and speed.

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The real question is would it be necessary to go higher and faster? As has been demonstrated for years the better rides are generally smaller rides that deliver.

 

I can see coasters going above 500 feet but they will be short. You would need a lot of real estate to burn off the energy of the car/train without having to rely on magnetic brakes every so many feet to slow it down. If that was the case then what would be the point of building it?

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My point is, the first month or so, everyone was claiming that FR didn't hit 149 mph.

 

 

Apparently, this is wrong...

 

 

Sorry about that. GP is playing tricks on me.

 

Yeah, it's not necessarily a good idea to take something you heard from the GP and run with it.

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What I'd honestly rather see is more coasters that aren't the very fastest or tallest, but try to be big, fast, LONG coasters that are actually forceful.

 

Basically, more variations of Millennium Force and Intimidator 305. it's ironic that I say that, since I'm not really a big fan of either of them. But I like what they were trying to do with them, even if I don't think they quite succeeded, at least in terms of what I'm looking for in a steel coaster. Although I thin that if you took the best parts of both, you'd probably have a really great coaster.

 

The thing that MF does right is the height and speed and most importantly a LONG ride that sustains that speed. Unfortunately, they were pretty tame in the forces.

 

And perhaps Intimidator 305 shows why. After all, it's fair to say that it's a bit extreme for some people. But I think it's more of a design issue, with too fast and tight transitions between the elements. That and the horrible original restraints made them add brakes to the ride, which killed some of the good aspects of the ride for me. But I like where they were going with the ride, even if the execution wasn't all that if could be.

 

But it would be nice to see Intamin try again with a bigger (in length, not height) project with more room to spread out the elements, while still keeping the forces intact. Something like a cross between MF and Voyage, but with smooth steel tracks.

 

Unfortunately, it would cost more than most parks can afford right now.

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