Holiday World (HW) Discussion Thread

[SharkTums]

I seriously have zero recollection of either loving or hating the Timberliners so I'm assuming that means they were fine and nothing earth-shattering on either direction.

[Lareson]

I don't think the Timberliners on a riders perspective are nothing special, besides being more form fitting and no need for seat belts. It's more the way the chassis are and how it handles the track.

 

On PTC trains, there's no suspension, no shock absorption between the seats and wheels. Basically what's doing the shock absorbing is the material the seat cushion is made out of. The wheels are in locked positions, meaning that they slide around turns, what some enthusiasts call the "PTC shuffle." They have a tendency to be rough on wooden track. Lap bars are alright on them, but they're not made for everybody's shape and form. They're meant to rest on the top of the thigh. Don't get me wrong, they're excellent trains as a majority of wooden coaster around the world use them, but since they're based off of designs that date back to when PTC was formed in 1904, they're not exactly state-of-the-art.

 

On Timberliners, the seats have their own hinged suspension so the vibrations felt on many wooden coasters are brought down a lot. Also the way the chassis turn around the turns with the track, meaning its more closer to the way some steel coasters wheel system works. The lapbars are more like clamps that form to the body's midsection versus PTC's flat bars that don't exactly fit well for those that may have a wider midsection. Essentially, Timberliner trains should provide a much smoother, more comfortable ride and easier on the track and structure. We'll know how well they work when they're put on Hades 360 this year. Wooden Warrior or Twister didn't really show the true capabilities of the Timberliners besides the tighter turns as they're not very big coasters that travel at higher speeds.

 

 

Here's a good example of what the wheel system looks like for Timberliners. As you can see, each wheel has much more movement and flexibility to navigate the changing wooden track.

 

All of this track work being done on Voyage and Hades 360 makes me think that its needed after running PTCs for all those years.

 

Looking back at some of those pictures from Holi-wood Nights 2010 and seeing Will Koch, kind of makes me sad that he's gone...

 

By the way, noticed that Voyage trains aren't listed on PTC's website for the 2012-2013 offseason refurbs and that La Ronde is getting new trains for Le Monstre. Wait, what?

[Koasterking48]

^I really think they are pushing for the Timberliners for this year. They announced these bad boys back in 2009 and have been delayed ever since. I anticipate this year to finally be the year. Hades 360 and The Voyage are very similar, so it would make sense that they would both roll out the new trains at the same time. I have no idea if they would be ready for opening day though

[GayCoasterGuy]

On PTC trains, there's no suspension, no shock absorption between the seats and wheels. Basically what's doing the shock absorbing is the material the seat cushion is made out of. The wheels are in locked positions, meaning that they slide around turns, what some enthusiasts call the "PTC shuffle." They have a tendency to be rough on wooden track. Lap bars are alright on them, but they're not made for everybody's shape and form. They're meant to rest on the top of the thigh. Don't get me wrong, they're excellent trains as a majority of wooden coaster around the world use them, but since they're based off of designs that date back to when PTC was formed in 1904, they're not exactly state-of-the-art.

 

 

^I agree with that exactly, I would only add that the PTC design worked great (and still does on a few coasters) that haven't had the ratcheting lap bars installed. They clamp you in and are heavier, thus magnifying forces and all the *shock* we feel when we ride. This is my take on it in the La Ronde forum (new PTC trains for Le Monstre): PTCs were just fine until the ratcheting lap bars started showing up (in 1990 on Thunder Run, GA Cyclone and TX Giant). Contrary to popular argument, the cars with heavier lap bar and lap bar "gear" (up to 200lbs per car) were dynamically very different and just plain heavier than the older model buzz bars. Add to that CCI building extremely aggressive rides with wooden coaster standards/forumulae for lighter, older buzz bar trains, and you get poor results: rough rides, horrible wear and tear, etc. And of course all that leads to addition of brakes, re-profiling; people stop liking the ride due to roughness, etc.

 

Of course, we probably won't see many new installations (or any?!) with PTC buzz bars, just my 2 cents But they do run darn good on the rides that still have them - savor them!

[Randomman295]

On Timberliners, the seats have their own hinged suspension so the vibrations felt on many wooden coasters are brought down a lot. Also the way the chassis turn around the turns with the track, meaning its more closer to the way some steel coasters wheel system works. The lapbars are more like clamps that form to the body's midsection versus PTC's flat bars that don't exactly fit well for those that may have a wider midsection. Essentially, Timberliner trains should provide a much smoother, more comfortable ride and easier on the track and structure. We'll know how well they work when they're put on Hades 360 this year. Wooden Warrior or Twister didn't really show the true capabilities of the Timberliners besides the tighter turns as they're not very big coasters that travel at higher speeds.

Cool, I never knew that. Do Milennium Flyers do the same thing?

[Lareson]

I don't think so. I haven't seen a Millennium Flyer built from the ground up, or have worked on one, but I believe they're more closer to the way PTC cars are built, but since they are smaller, trailered cars, they can maneuver the track much more easier than PTCs can due to only having 1 axel per car. The lap bars though are much more superior than PTCs, but not quite as form fitting as Timberliners.

 

There are many factors on why buzz bars have fallen out of fashion, mainly the electrical side of it. If they're going to install a pneumatic system for the coaster, they might as well make it so the lap bars open mechanically via pneumatic pressure plates, than having to install all of the electrical components for electrical contact on the trains. I do agree thought that the PTC lap bar mechanisms are highly complex and have been known to jam or seize after a long period of operation.

[thrillerman1]

^ We're getting ready to test them on Voyage. We're taking it one step at a time.

 

I think I had read that HW would start testing the Timberliners in March, and since we're almost halfway through the month, is there any update?

[GayCoasterGuy]

^I think they'll wait until the Timberliners are a green light before they talk about or announce them. They learned with that the first 2 times.

[PKI Jizzman]

It's been a couple years since I've taken a trip to Holiday World, the Timberliners might bring me back. So could the water park. Seriously, Wildebeest is better than 75% of the coasters I've been on.

 

Since I'm in Cincy, Holiday World, Cedar Point, Dollywood, and Great America are the once-a-year visit parks, but I usually can only pick one or two. Tough competition this year with backwards Batman and Gatekeeper!

[Koasterking48]

It's been a couple years since I've taken a trip to Holiday World, the Timberliners might bring me back. So could the water park. Seriously, Wildebeest is better than 75% of the coasters I've been on.

 

Since I'm in Cincy, Holiday World, Cedar Point, Dollywood, and Great America are the once-a-year visit parks, but I usually can only pick one or two. Tough competition this year with backwards Batman and Gatekeeper!

Don't forget Mammoth! That ride kicks more ass than Wildebeest!

[lilsam1993]

So, the battle of who owns Holiday World continues...

 

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2013303240105

 

Nearly 70 years ago, Evansville industrialist Louis J. Koch opened a theme park, with a Mother Goose ride and a toy shop of elves. Years later, son Bill Koch and later grandson Will Koch took the vision further. Much further. Monster roller coasters. Giant water slides.

 

Today, Holiday World & Splashin’ Safari draws more than a million visitors a year.

 

But the park built by generations of a family is now splitting a family apart. Will’s widow, Lori Koch, and brother Dan Koch are fighting for control of the family legacy. She wants to pass the park on to her three children. Dan Koch, a lawyer from Florida who once ran the park, says he now pines for a return.

 

The two have quit talking to each other. She fired him as interim president and kicked him off the company board. He said her demands could destroy the park.

 

On a recent sunny day, Lori Koch, 51, cruised the park in a golf cart and admitted feeling pained by the family strife. “It’s hard, it’s difficult, I’m torn,” she said. “Who wants to be at odds with your family?”

 

Days earlier in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., Dan Koch, 48, spent 90 minutes on the phone talking fondly about Holiday World past and present. While discussing the feud, though, he became somber, thinking of being cut off from the place he spent summers as a boy since he was 7. “Any kind of family business, there’s tension,” he said. “I’ve got to be positive and move forward. I’d like to return in some lesser role someday. I’ll work anywhere, maybe pick up trash.”

 

At stake in the quarrel is control of a business with broad economic impact on Indiana. In addition to the 1.2 million visitors the park draws each year, it supplies part-time jobs to 2,300 people. One appraisal puts the park’s value at $109 million.

 

But for all the disagreement in the ownership battle, there is one thing both sides agree on: They weren’t prepared for the Koch family to fracture as it did. One tragic event can do that.

 

A park is born

 

In 1946, Louis Koch and son Bill Koch, newly returned from naval service during World War II, opened the nation’s first theme park.

 

As Bill Loch’s children grew, they all worked at the park. But only one was groomed to be his successor: Will Koch, who earned an engineering degree from the University of Notre Dame. He married Lori Morris, a music education student from Walton, Ind., who worked at the park as an entertainer.

In the 1990s, as Will Koch took over the park, then called Holiday World, he put it on an expansion path that eclipsed attendance projections by theme park experts and surpassed the most optimistic of family plans. He was bringing in one successful ride after another. Holiday World’s attendance kept climbing.

 

Then, on a June night in 2010, the Koch family was shattered by tragic news. Will Koch, who had struggled with his blood sugar for years, was found dead in his pool by his family as they returned home from an evening out. The coroner ruled that drowning was the cause of death. The family attributed it to a diabetic attack. He was 48. This time there wasn’t a successor in line.

 

Split proceeds

 

The sudden death left Holiday World in crisis. Lori Koch found herself in charge of her late husband’s estate, which held 60 percent controlling interest in Holiday World. But she wasn’t a businessperson. She had run the park’s entertainment in the past but later kept busy raising three children.

 

With the park amid the peak summer season, She asked Dan Koch to leave his law practice in Florida, where he had lived for the past 20 years, to run Holiday World in a pinch. He owned the other 40 percent of the stock. (By 2010, the two brothers had bought out their siblings.) Dan Koch answered the call and became interim president. He left Fort Lauderdale and moved into his mother’s basement near the park.

 

A 2002 agreement between the brothers said that, if one died, his shares would be bought by Koch Development Corp., the family entity that owned the park, or by the surviving brother. The sale was obligatory and had to occur within 210 days. The agreement’s terms essentially meant that Dan Koch would become the owner of Holiday World. Koch Development’s only board members were Dan Koch and his sister Natalie Koch, who no longer owned shares directly.

 

The plan for ownership succession seemed clear-cut. But there was one problem: Lori Koch and Dan Koch couldn’t agree on a price. The agreement laid out a formula that set the price at $541.93 a share for Will Koch’s nearly 50,000 shares. That valued those shares at nearly $27 million. But Lori Koch knew the brothers paid Natalie Koch $653 a share in 2009. That price valued the shares at $32.5 million. Dan Koch wouldn’t pay the higher price.

 

As the end of 2010 neared, Dan Koch put out an ultimatum: Sell the shares by Jan. 7 or he would sue. Lori Koch sued instead.

 

Money and familyThe Holiday World lawsuit is contained in two bulging cardboard attaches in the Vanderburgh County Courthouse. For all the maneuverings and stock price calculations, however, the legal filings don’t reflect the other issue splitting the Koch family.

 

Dan Koch said he thinks Lori Koch and her three children — Lauren, 24; Leah, 22; and William, 19 — are too young to step into positions running Holiday World or Koch Development and should work in outside jobs before they ever do.

 

Lori Koch said she is just carrying out the wishes of her late husband, who wanted his children to take over the business just as he had done.

 

Dan Koch acknowledged that he had agreed at one time to sell his shares to his brother. But now that Will Koch is dead, Dan Koch said he has visions of his own children, an 11-year-old girl and 9-year-old boy, inheriting the park.

 

For now, Lori Koch’s children have the inside track to run Holiday World.

 

In December, a judge ruled for her and the estate, voiding the agreement that Will Koch’s shares be sold at the lower price or at any price.

 

Dan Koch has appealed to the Indiana Court of Appeals. He argues that the county judge erred in excusing Lori Koch and the estate from the obligation to sell their controlling shares to him.

 

Meanwhile, the park is set to open May 4 with $6.5 million in improvements. They include a four-slide water ride called Hyena Falls, a new first-aid station and a rebuilt high-dive pool. Stretching over 100 acres, the park now dwarfs memories of the Mother Goose train from 1946.

 

Chip Cleary — a veteran amusement park operator from Long Island, N.Y., who was a friend of Will Koch and now sits on the board — said he doesn’t think the Koch family feud will derail Holiday World. He has seen parks survive the deaths of founders, bankruptcies and other woes. “Yes, there is this thing behind the scenes going on,” Cleary said. But “the underlying thing ... is most people come to a park because it’s a great park. I really believe that the park’s biggest times are ahead of it.”

 

Dan Koch said he looks forward to visiting Holiday World this summer with his children. Whether it will be as the controlling shareholder or not, he can’t say.

Edited March 26, 2013 by jedimaster1227

[Moose]

I feel badly for Pat Koch. Her family seems to be tearing itself apart.

[gisco]

It is very tough when you have multiple family members and succession of a business. I have seen it a number of times and it ends up splitting the family or the business fails. There needs to be a clear path to who will take over. It is unfortunate the untimely death prevented it.

[_koppen]

It is very tough when you have multiple family members and succession of a business. I have seen it a number of times and it ends up splitting the family or the business fails. There needs to be a clear path to who will take over. It is unfortunate the untimely death prevented it.

 

It seems that there was a path, just no one of them followed it.

 

Every a family business will get some serious problems when it reaches the second or third generation, it really is inevitable.

[cfc]

It is very tough when you have multiple family members and succession of a business. I have seen it a number of times and it ends up splitting the family or the business fails. There needs to be a clear path to who will take over. It is unfortunate the untimely death prevented it.

 

That's pretty much what happened to the old Nut Tree Restaurat in Vacaville, Calif. The parents died, and their kids really didn't want to be in the restaurant/tourist attraction business and ended up screwing the place up.

Edited March 26, 2013 by cfc

[magnum chris]

I don't know if were allowed to link to other coaster affialted sites.. But this one is kinda interesting. Dan Koch posted had some kind words to say that I think is worth the read. If I'm not allowed to post this please delete.

 

Here

 

EDIT: Changed the link to the actual article

Edited March 28, 2013 by gisco

[OrthoMan]

In other news, take a look at Holiday World's new park map.

 

The placement of the new water slide complex is pretty interesting, as it looks like it will cut off future expansion of the Thanksgiving section (and therefore, the expansion of Holiday World...). I hope this isn't a bad sign for the dry side of the park.

 

Also note the newly designed entrance to Splashin' Safari. This will make the water park much easier to access and a lot less crowded when you first walk in. Unfortunately, this came at the expense of two fun (though small) slides, a lazy river, AND a pretty large section for the kids. Strange.

 

So, lots of intriguing changes to the park this year.

[mikeykaise]

Actually looking at it, the layout makes a lot of sense, the path crossing under Voyage seems to be the dividing line for future expansion on both parks. Holiday world owns the big open field behind the new water slides and Giraffica so I can see half of it being used for the water-park and the other for the amusement park. Plenty of room for a new full sized coaster.

[Moose]

^agreed.

 

 

There is also access to that area behind gobbler getaway or reconfiguring the parking lot tight at the entrance to thanksgiving.

[Raven Maven]

We're not done growing - and I'm talking about both parks. Not by a long shot. (Okay, I'd better check - there isn't a ride called the "long shot," is there? Wouldn't want to start any rumors out of ignorance ...)

[Hilltopper39]

So I heard from a very reliable source that Holiday World is not done growing and they are in fact building a new stand up inverted hyper woodie called Long Shot to be located in their new Kentucky Derby themed holiday section.......

[Wes]

Ahahaha

[Raven Maven]

So I heard from a very reliable source that Holiday World is not done growing and they are in fact building a new stand up inverted hyper woodie called Long Shot to be located in their new Kentucky Derby themed holiday section.......

 

Just shoot me.

[Moose]

 

Just shoot me.

 

Shooting is too violent, shouldn't we call you instead?

[Raven Maven]

Maybe.