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Cedar Fair Corporate Development Discussion Thread (FUN)


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It's always amazed me that the park that operates 7 days a week, year round has a lower EBITDA than a park that only operates from the second week of May to the end of October where the last 2 months of the season are weekend only operation.

 

Half the rides are down for a good time during the off season for maintenance. I'm sure that keeps a lot of people away, and then in the winter the park is basically dead. CP has a rep nationwide and has twice as many thrill rides as Knotts. I'm actually surprised Knott's does so well considering its surrounded by two Disney parks, Six Flags, Universal, Sea World and Legoland.

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I'll be the guy who asks what EBITDA stands for.

 

Edit: Disregard. Google is way smarter than me.

 

It surprises me that Carowinds has such a small chunk of change, yet they received such a significant addition.

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It's always amazed me that the park that operates 7 days a week, year round has a lower EBITDA than a park that only operates from the second week of May to the end of October where the last 2 months of the season are weekend only operation.

 

And that along those lines, Kings Island isn't far behind Knotts, also not being a year-round park! Kings Island is an extremely successful, and often overlooked in the shadow of Cedar Point in the same state, amusement park! I've always been quite impressed by the place, and my kids, who I just took for the first time, preferred it more than CP even!

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It's always amazed me that the park that operates 7 days a week, year round has a lower EBITDA than a park that only operates from the second week of May to the end of October where the last 2 months of the season are weekend only operation.

 

Hotels, hotels, hotels, hotels. The rates they can pull for the lodging is crazy. I just paid over $500 per hotel for a cabin in July. There is a reason they have been invested around $100million in the last few years/next year on lodging at CP.

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It surprises me that Carowinds has such a small chunk of change, yet they received such a significant addition.

That's because the park had high growth potential. The kid who got the "most improved" award is always the one who was underperforming the most to begin with.

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I'm going to Cedar Point next week June 18th through June 23rd. I also spent $840.00 for Hotel Breaker's. But it's a 5 star hotel wanted to stay some were nice for a week off it's right on the resort. I've always wanted to stay at Hotel Breaker's now I'm finally going taking my 2 week vacation at Cedar Point and Kings Island. Also why doesn't Kings Island have a on site resort hotel to stay at?

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^ They were going to.. back when Paramount owned Kings Island, they sold the land that Great Wolf currently sits on, and sold it to Great Wolf to build a resort that would be PKI's hotel, during the construction of Great Wolf, Cedar Fair took over and didn't want a hotel (at least that's how I see it)

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But it's a 5 star hotel wanted to stay some were nice for a week off it's right on the resort.

Not trying to buzz kill your time at all, but don't think of five stars as in your typical five star resort. Read Bert's recent review in the CP thread and I can also attest that it feels more like a hotel with an FANTASTIC location and a few lukewarm amenities. You will have a blast, but don't expect to be bathed in luxury.

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^ Agreed 1000% with Bert and Zach. I really loved Breakers but its the location that is 5-star, not the hotel itself. I mean, its fine, but its not comparable to actual 5-star resorts. The location is unbeatable though. That's really what you are paying for. And I'd stay there again in a heartbeat for that reason alone.

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Knotts is obviously small physically but it makes more money than even CP I believe.

Nope

 

This is out of date. There is a new 2016 graph available on Cedar Fairs website. The new graph make it even more obvious the top four CP, KBF, KI, CW are just under 75% of the companies earnings. Knott's is barely behind Cedar Point, and Kings Island is solidly in front of Canada's Wonderland.

 

I wonder how much of Knott's earnings are due to Halloween? It is a hard ticket event, and draws massive crowds.

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On the topic of hotels, I really could see Cedar Fair building hotels at Carowinds and Worlds of Fun. I really have a strong feeling that's where they're going in the next couple of years. I remember a few years back, just after Ouimet was brought on, he talked about building hotels at those two parks. If I can find the interview, I'll link it. It seems pretty obvious as both parks have a good amount of space and are open spring through winter with WinterFest.

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Maybe this 100-foot coaster is the "completely new type of coaster" since that is definitely a little small for an Impulse? And maybe Knott's is getting the Intamin after all? Interesting...

 

Knott's has the highest attendance in the chain, far outpacing CGA, and it's near Disneyland which is going to draw huge crowds in 2018 for Star Wars Land. It makes sense for CF to have something new and exiting at nearby Knott's to draw some of those people across town. If, and that's a big speculative if, the coaster they are talking about is a Raptor/T-Rex then that would certainly do the trick.

 

But even without all that I still just don't see CGA getting the brand spanking new innovative coaster over Knotts. It doesn't make sense. Especially when CF choose Knott's to get the very first Accelerator coaster back in the day.

 

The CGA plans called for an Intamin impulse coaster at one point but maybe those have changed to a mega-lite or blitiz coaster since then.

 

It does make sense to put a lower capacity Raptor prototype at CGA than at Knotts, which IMO, needs a higher capacity, proven winner (like a hyper, Dive or beyond vertical drop coaster).

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Knotts is obviously small physically but it makes more money than even CP I believe.

Nope

 

This is out of date. There is a new 2016 graph available on Cedar Fairs website. The new graph make it even more obvious the top four CP, KBF, KI, CW are just under 75% of the companies earnings. Knott's is barely behind Cedar Point, and Kings Island is solidly in front of Canada's Wonderland.

So CP is still ahead of Knott's then, that was my original point...

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It does make sense to put a lower capacity Raptor prototype at CGA than at Knotts, which IMO, needs a higher capacity, proven winner (like a hyper, Dive or beyond vertical drop coaster).

I had the exact same reservation at first, partly because I really really want dive machine, and partly because I'm tired of so many low cap, effing short rides at my favorite park. Then got to thinking. The Raptor has four, two seat cars on each train, though this could probably be altered. That's eight people per train. Euro-fighters also have eight people per train, and while I've never ridden one (hello, the west coast would love a Gerstlauer!) I've been told they aren't exactly low cap. For one the trains can be sent quickly on their way, like Disney coasters, or so I've been told.

 

But then I got to thinking. Why are we focused on a Raptor for Knott's, or anywhere else for that matter? The T-Rex was developed first from what I understand and it holds twelve people per train. Also RMC just started testing the Raptor. How could Knott's get a Raptor to replace Boom if the ride is still being tested? Ground clearing is almost finished and I'm pretty sure they'll want to get work started on what's next. That's why they took Boom out before summer. However, word is that T-Rex track was spotted at Silverwood last year and everyone got excited that SW was getting one. But apparently RMC was just storing the track there and now according to the source the track is gone. Where did it go?

 

I'm still holding out hope for a dive coaster or mega-lite but it makes you wonder.

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Knotts is obviously small physically but it makes more money than even CP I believe.

Nope

 

Damn. I thought Carowinds would have way more visitors than Kings Dominion from Fury 325. Regardless I think for KD the RMC is going to attract more people from the mid-Atlantic area to the park because it's the only RMC below the northeast. And Cedar Fair will be beyond 25% with RMC Mean Streak.

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That graphic tracks EBITDA, not number of visitors. It is possible for a business with more customers to have lower EBITDA than another with fewer customers. There are many factors involved in that calculation--in fact, all of them except interest, tax, depreciation, and amortization .

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What a lot of people miss from the EBITDA pie chart is that it is showing earnings which means that is the amount each park makes after expenses.

 

Here is the page with the latest information which is from 2016. The entire presentation is available on Cedar Fair's website.

 

 

On the left you see how much each park brings in and as you can see at the top of the page that is total $1.289 billion dollars. After taking into account expenses to operate each park you can see the pie chart on the right as it shows at the top of the page total $481 million.

 

For instance Knott's pulls in the most money but because it costs more to operate the park it makes less than Cedar Point.

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What a lot of people miss from the EBITDA pie chart is that it is showing earnings which means that is the amount each park makes after expenses.

 

Here is the page with the latest information which is from 2016. The entire presentation is available on Cedar Fair's website.

 

 

On the left you see how much each park brings in and as you can see at the top of the page that is total $1.289 billion dollars. After taking into account expenses to operate each park you can see the pie chart on the right as it shows at the top of the page total $481 million.

 

For instance Knott's pulls in the most money but because it costs more to operate the park it makes less than Cedar Point.

 

Wow I wonder what makes CGA so expensive to operate, other than California's ridiculously high taxes. And crazy that KI and CW combined still don't add up to what CP or Knott's bring in. Interesting stuff, I wish Six Flags had a similar graph available to the public.

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^Likely the cost to lease the land.

 

Knott's owns every square foot, or actually CF owns it. They lease nothing and are beholden to no one.

 

He was talking about CGA, not Knott's.

 

Oh I was looking at the previous comment.

 

BTW someone over at Knotts Network just commented that an S&S freespin would qualify as a maker CF hasn't worked with in awhile. God I hope not. I am just not impressed with what I have seen of that ride.

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