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Does anybody here know how reliable RMCs are? The only one I have ridden was Goliath and that did not break down once during the 3 days I was there, but I'm wondering how the other ones are.

Edited by bluestreak
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Check out this amazing photo compliments of Dave Morgan!! 

I feel bad because this is all I post about lately but no... if a park has the ability to open and there's demand and they choose to stay closed then they're dumb. Period. Be creative and figure it ou

Did they happen to mention how heavy that train is?

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A lot of people forget that Polercoasters aren't really meant to be built in theme parks. They're meant for tourist attractions and large cities. The estimated cost for the Orlando one is 50-60 million. That's a huge investment for one park, and isn't really wise either. A flyer is much more likely at this point, which I'm not a big fan of.

 

I hope that CF goes elsewhere for their next big addition to the park. I really want to see something unique and different, not another cookie cutter. It's okay for a park to add one here and there, but CP has really been known for additions that set them aside from the rest.

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I do remember seeing Dick Kinzel quoted that his biggest mistake he ever made was Top Thrill Dragster.

 

False. He said Disaster Transport was his biggest mistake.

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4990536

 

Take a listen around 10:00. Kinzel does acknowledge that Disaster Transport was one his worst business decisions, but he thinks Top Thrill Dragster eclipsed DT as his worst business decision as of 2005. Did his mind ever change? I'm not quite sure.

 

My personal opinion is that Cedar Point/Matt Ouimet currently think that Top Thrill Dragster is worth it's investment along with its downtime that is still much higher than normal. If they are willing to continue to put money into the ride with annual maintenance and new paint, and continue to operate it 13 years since it opened, I'm guessing they see its value. Maintenance wise, from speaking to mechanics on similar Intamin Accelerator coasters in different parks, Intamins are not easy to get parts for, and this type of train continues to have issues with chassis cracks and whatnot. These accelerator coasters are no cheap date.

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I do remember seeing Dick Kinzel quoted that his biggest mistake he ever made was Top Thrill Dragster.

 

False. He said Disaster Transport was his biggest mistake.

 

The direct quote was that Top Thrill Dragster was the "dumbest decision" he ever made as CEO. It's a maintenance nightmare and was closed for about 1/2 of its first season, and it's incredibly expensive to run on a daily basis. "That's far and away the most expensive ride we have in the park to run."

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I don't see a flying coaster coming to Cedar Point. I think parks like Cedar Point usually sign package deals with one manufacturer over a span of few years. Hence why it's been all B&M for the past 4 years (and all Intamin from 2000-2007). Personally, I think CP's deal with B&M will be done after Valravn, if that's the case. They most likely signed a 3-project deal, 5 or so years ago, and we've reached the end of that contract. I'd be willing to bet we don't see another coaster, period, for a few years even. They are probably currently in negotiations on the major coaster project(s) to appear next.

 

It also looks like they are gearing up for a major Soak City expansion with the changes happening in Challenge Park. I'm sure they have long-term plans for STR's spot, but I bet we don't see what they are for at least 5 years, probably more. Ripcord moving in that area will probably be the only thing for now. Over the next few years we'll probably see some small, but much needed improvements (a-la the Gemini plaza)...I wouldn't be surprised if we even see the long-awaited dark ride on the top of the arcade sometime soon.

 

Regarding TTD, perhaps from a maintenance and financial standpoint Kinzel is right (and kind of expected), but even 13 years later, EVERYONE still talks about and marvels at that thing. I still get the, "have you ever ridden this before?!" from random strangers all the time while waiting in line. And if it's down for a period during the day, the moment it start testing again, people start running. I think half of it is the experience itself, and how close the people watching can get. CP knocked that aspect of the ride out of the park.

Edited by FeelTheFORCE
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Um, Cedar Point's 150th anniversary is soon approaching for 2020 and I can guarantee you that Cedar Point will come out swinging with a MAJOR coaster. So no, you're wrong, we will see a coaster in the next five years.

 

And I doubt that Cedar POINT made a deal with B&M, I think it's Cedar FAIR that made a deal with B&M, and that includes Banshee, Behemoth, Leviathan, Intimidator, Diamondback, Fury 325, GateKeeper, Valravn, and possibly more to come throughout the chain.

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Um, Cedar Point's 150th anniversary is soon approaching for 2020 and I can guarantee you that Cedar Point will come out swinging with a MAJOR coaster. So no, you're wrong, we will see a coaster in the next five years.

 

And I doubt that Cedar POINT made a deal with B&M, I think it's Cedar FAIR that made a deal with B&M, and that includes Banshee, Behemoth, Leviathan, Intimidator, Diamondback, Fury 325, GateKeeper, Valravn, and possibly more to come throughout the chain.

 

I said A FEW years. 4 years from now would sound about right. It was 6 between Maverick and Gatekeeper, and 4 between TTD and Maverick.

 

You could be right, it probably was Cedar Fair, but larger parks like Cedar Point might be their own entity. And I'm not sure I'd group Behemoth in with these. Was Cedar Point negotiating pre-Behemoth to build a Dive Machine with vest restraints? Considering the first Wing Coaster didn't appear until 2011? I highly doubt it. Even so, with that many coasters built already, that's an even stronger indication that this deal is probably close to an end. That's 8 coasters, 9 if you count the Rougarou transition. There really isn't much more to build, and all of the major parks have been hit with at least one project...some multiple. The ONLY thing remaining that I can think of is if Kings Island builds a Giga. I feel like if a flying coaster was in the cards, one would have been built by now in one of those nine projects.

Edited by FeelTheFORCE
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Sorry, I thought you said we won't see another coaster for at least five years, not few. Regarding any deal with B&M, I don't think it'll stop if it's working. Those 8 coasters (9 if you count Rougarou) are at 4 of the chain's 11 parks. If the formula is working why stop? The first that comes to mind is a much needed invert for Valleyfair, or hyper for Michigan's Adventure (we all know that's never going to happen lol). Again, I don't see B&M and Cedar Fair stopping their relationship anytime soon, especially when you consider that their relationship dates back to 1994 with Raptor, when we saw Mantis, Talon, Patriot, Hydra, Silver Bullet, and probably a few others long before these newer 8 came along.

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I don't have a source, nor do I remember where I read it, but I do remember seeing once that Cedar Point is basically 5 years ahead at all times. Whatever we are seeing now was put on the table and agreed upon roughly 5 years ago, give or take. Which would make sense, considering Gatekeeper opened in 2013. I'm still inclined to believe that Cedar Point is treated as their own entity, considering the rest of the chain was building other brands in the 2000s, while CP was all Intamin. I hope I'm wrong, as I love more new coasters as much as anyone, but I believe this contract is coming to an end and Cedar Point will be moving in a different direction from B&M in the next few years. Valravn seems like a great "epitome coaster" to end the contract with.

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Right, but why is it that you can't have multiple contracts with multiple coaster manufacturers at the same time? It seems like Cedar Fair works with Intamin, B&M, CGI, Mac, Zemperla, and Gerstlauer simultaneously, and while they were adding the four Intamins at Cedar Point, as well as Xcelerator, and Steel Venom from Intamin, they were adding B&M's such as Talon, Hydra, Patriot, etc. and Gerstlauer's Spinning Dragons and Timberland Twister (back when they operated Camp Snoopy at MoA), and so on.

 

I'd love to see Cedar Fair work with other manufactures. I want to see them work with Intamin on more tried and true designs, and I'd love to see what RMC can do to some of Cedar Fair's poor wooden coasters. But I hope they continue to work with B&M, whether that's more conversions of their remaining floorless coasters, to a hyper at MIA, and an Invert at Valleyfair, to a Flyer at Cedar Point, to a giga at Kings Island and Knott's Berry Farm (if they ever manage the room for it). I'm not saying these have to be added simultaneously with no other manufacturer getting a chance, but I hope these make their way in the next decade or so.

 

As far as years for planning goes, I believe that Cedar Fair decided on the wing coaster at 2011's IAAPA, and 2013 Gatekeeper opened, so only two years. Don't forget though, when Cedar Point clears land or closes a ride/coaster, it tends to mean that they will use that site for the next major coaster in 2 seasons time. i.e. WWL --> Maverick, Disaster Transport --> GateKeeper, GoodTime Theater --> Valravn. I think it's a safe bet that Challenge Park will be used for a Soak City expansion for 2017, but it's also a safe bet to say that STR site will be used for 2018/2019. And I'm sure you're right on that Cedar Point plans 5 years ahead, but that doesn't mean that they only plan on one coaster every 5 years. Cedar Point normally adds coasters every two or three years. It's been that way since the 70's but there are periods where they go 5 or so years without adding one.

Edited by cedarpointguru
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A lot of people forget that Polercoasters aren't really meant to be built in theme parks. They're meant for tourist attractions and large cities. The estimated cost for the Orlando one is 50-60 million. That's a huge investment for one park, and isn't really wise either. A flyer is much more likely at this point, which I'm not a big fan of.

 

I hope that CF goes elsewhere for their next big addition to the park. I really want to see something unique and different, not another cookie cutter. It's okay for a park to add one here and there, but CP has really been known for additions that set them aside from the rest.

 

 

Well said

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Does anybody here know how reliable RMCs are? The only one I have ridden was Goliad and that did not break down once during the 3 days I was there, but I'm wondering how the other ones are.

 

CP's RMC has garbage reliability. I don't think I've ever seen it actually take riders.

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"FeelTheFORCE"

It also looks like they are gearing up for a major Soak City expansion with the changes happening in Challenge Park. I'm sure they have long-term plans for STR's spot, but I bet we don't see what they are for at least 5 years, probably more. Ripcord moving in that area will probably be the only thing for now. Over the next few years we'll probably see some small, but much needed improvements (a-la the Gemini plaza)...I wouldn't be surprised if we even see the long-awaited dark ride on the top of the arcade sometime soon.

 

 

In "my opinion" soak city is not the best investment for CP. I have never spent any time in Sc and never plan to. It's Ohio, so if you want to go on a water slide, there are other places. I think Kings Island benefits far more than CP with their water park and if there were no water park, I don't think anyone would care. After all, they do have plenty of indoor water parks in the area.

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Right, but why is it that you can't have multiple contracts with multiple coaster manufacturers at the same time? It seems like Cedar Fair works with Intamin, B&M, CGI, Mac, Zemperla, and Gerstlauer simultaneously, and while they were adding the four Intamins at Cedar Point, as well as Xcelerator, and Steel Venom from Intamin, they were adding B&M's such as Talon, Hydra, Patriot, etc. and Gerstlauer's Spinning Dragons and Timberland Twister (back when they operated Camp Snoopy at MoA), and so on.

 

I'd love to see Cedar Fair work with other manufactures. I want to see them work with Intamin on more tried and true designs, and I'd love to see what RMC can do to some of Cedar Fair's poor wooden coasters. But I hope they continue to work with B&M, whether that's more conversions of their remaining floorless coasters, to a hyper at MIA, and an Invert at Valleyfair, to a Flyer at Cedar Point, to a giga at Kings Island and Knott's Berry Farm (if they ever manage the room for it). I'm not saying these have to be added simultaneously with no other manufacturer getting a chance, but I hope these make their way in the next decade or so.

 

I wasn't talking about the rest of Cedar Fair, I'm talking strictly Cedar Point. What's added at Knott's, MiA, etc. has zero effect on Cedar Point...except maybe Kings Island to a certain degree. If it did, then I305 wouldn't exist. These "package deals" have existed at CP since at least Corkscrew in 1976, with the only exceptions being Mean Streak (a giant project in itself, and who would want to add two of those, let's be honest), Wildcat (unless you consider Jumbo Jet), and Woodstock Express. Every other coaster since that year has been part of a package deal with either another coaster or another ride from the same manufacturer.

 

Corkscrew (1976) & Gemini (1978)

Jr Gemini (1979), Demon Drop (1983), & Avalanche Run (1985)

Iron Dragon (1987) & Magnum (1989)

Raptor (1994) & Mantis (1996)

 

And the rest we all know. Flat rides are a different story, but when a coaster is involved, you can usually expect something else from the same manufacturer in Cedar Point's case. It's just how the business works.

 

As far as years for planning goes, I believe that Cedar Fair decided on the wing coaster at 2011's IAAPA, and 2013 Gatekeeper opened, so only two years. Don't forget though, when Cedar Point clears land or closes a ride/coaster, it tends to mean that they will use that site for the next major coaster in 2 seasons time. i.e. WWL --> Maverick, Disaster Transport --> GateKeeper, GoodTime Theater --> Valravn. I think it's a safe bet that Challenge Park will be used for a Soak City expansion for 2017, but it's also a safe bet to say that STR site will be used for 2018/2019. And I'm sure you're right on that Cedar Point plans 5 years ahead, but that doesn't mean that they only plan on one coaster every 5 years. Cedar Point normally adds coasters every two or three years. It's been that way since the 70's but there are periods where they go 5 or so years without adding one.

 

We don't know that for sure, but which is why I said give or take. I agree that Cedar Point usually adds coaster quicker than 5 or 6 years. Honestly, I was pretty surprised they went that long between Maverick and Gatekeeper. But again, that's most likely because their deal with Intamin was over, and they were deciding what to add next. Remember that they consider offers from all types of manufacturers, which takes a ton of time to go over all of them, narrow down the ones they want, get final approval, etc. This was all happening when they were changing CEOs as well, which probably didn't help speed up the process.

Edited by FeelTheFORCE
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In "my opinion" soak city is not the best investment for CP. I have never spent any time in Sc and never plan to. It's Ohio, so if you want to go on a water slide, there are other places. I think Kings Island benefits far more than CP with their water park and if there were no water park, I don't think anyone would care. After all, they do have plenty of indoor water parks in the area.

 

I don't visit it that much either, but it would be a great addition. It is extremely outdated, and Cedar Point is a "resort" destination, so the families would eat that right up. I actually want to go back soon because it's been like 10 years since I've been in Soak City.

Edited by FeelTheFORCE
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"FeelTheFORCE"

It also looks like they are gearing up for a major Soak City expansion with the changes happening in Challenge Park. I'm sure they have long-term plans for STR's spot, but I bet we don't see what they are for at least 5 years, probably more. Ripcord moving in that area will probably be the only thing for now. Over the next few years we'll probably see some small, but much needed improvements (a-la the Gemini plaza)...I wouldn't be surprised if we even see the long-awaited dark ride on the top of the arcade sometime soon.

 

 

In "my opinion" soak city is not the best investment for CP. I have never spent any time in Sc and never plan to. It's Ohio, so if you want to go on a water slide, there are other places. I think Kings Island benefits far more than CP with their water park and if there were no water park, I don't think anyone would care. After all, they do have plenty of indoor water parks in the area.

 

It's about competing with those indoor water parks for dollars and getting people to stay longer. A water park that isn't trapped in the late 1990s would only help in that regards.

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Let's say that's true, and Cedar Point works independently of other parks in the chain. Had they had a 5 ride package deal with Intamin (2000 to 2010, from MF to STR) then who's to say they don't have the same with B&M right know. The argument you were trying to make initially was that Cedar Point is probably done with B&M (after the 3 ride deal including Rougarou), but me thinks they may have 1 or 2 more (most likely 1 considering that the only offering left B&M has that Cedar Point might want is a flyer). Who knows but Cedar Point.

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In "my opinion" soak city is not the best investment for CP. I have never spent any time in Sc and never plan to. It's Ohio, so if you want to go on a water slide, there are other places. I think Kings Island benefits far more than CP with their water park and if there were no water park, I don't think anyone would care. After all, they do have plenty of indoor water parks in the area.

 

Anyone who can't see the benefit in expanding Soak City has never looked at what they charge for a night at Breakers, and the incredible value in giving someone a reason to stay an extra night.

 

Plus it's a separate gate and another day of in-park spending revenue.

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Um, Cedar Point's 150th anniversary is soon approaching for 2020 and I can guarantee you that Cedar Point will come out swinging with a MAJOR coaster. So no, you're wrong, we will see a coaster in the next five years.

 

 

Cedar Point got Wildcat in 1970, their 100th anniversary. Along with not being very large, it lasted 8 years.

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I don't know where this dumb idea came from that parks always add major coasters during anniversary years but it seems to be widely accepted as fact by way too many enthusiasts despite the fact that it's totally ridiculous. Enthusiasts are the only people that care about park anniversaries, all an anniversary means is an opportunity for them to sell you a $25 100th anniversary T shirt. It doesn't mean they're getting a major ride.

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Can someone offer any real evidence outside of, "I heard somewhere" or "I think I read that" or "Someone (with no name or title) told me that," to the existence of a contract between Cedar Point and B&M that entails a multiple ride package? Or a contract between Cedar Point and Intamin? These rumors are swarming like flies on sh%t, with not a shred of verified evidence to indicate such contracts ever existed.

 

Maybe, just maybe, Cedar Point/Cedar Fair currently has a good business relationship with B&M so they continue to make multiple purchases from them?

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Maybe, just maybe, Cedar Point/Cedar Fair currently has a good business relationship with B&M so they continue to make multiple purchases from them?

This. 100% this. If Cedar Fair did in fact have this mysterious contract with B&M, GateKeeper did not go from nothing to a signed contract in a matter of hours at IAAPA 2011. And how would Valravn be part of said "contract" if they had just decided on the 2013 coaster? Did they decide to sign up for two coasters in the matter of hours?

 

I think, unless somebody actually has evidence that says otherwise, that Valravn had nothing to do with GateKeeper. And Fury 325 had nothing to do with Leviathan, or GateKeeper, or Banshee, as Rob Decker said in an interview from a website not to be named on this site from the Fury 325 media day. They put their wish out there and see what manufacturers come back them with, and in this case, B&M won the contract.

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Can someone offer any real evidence outside of, "I heard somewhere" or "I think I read that" or "Someone (with no name or title) told me that," to the existence of a contract between Cedar Point and B&M that entails a multiple ride package? Or a contract between Cedar Point and Intamin? These rumors are swarming like flies on sh%t, with not a shred of verified evidence to indicate such contracts ever existed.

 

Yeah it's a safe bet that anyone that knew the specifics of the deal wouldn't be saying anything. The people that are talking are likely just talking out of their a**es.

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IMO its obvious why Cedar Fair has been going to B&M so much, they are reliable, gimmicky, people eaters that suck in guests each year. Just because its smart to go back to them for new attractions doesn't mean there is a mysterious contract going on.... If its marketable, cheaper to maintain, and eats through a line than I think its obvious why a park would give B&M a call... Same with RMC.

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