Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

P. 4740: Cedar Points Nights 2019 details released!
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Re: Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

Postby RailBlazer » Thu May 24, 2018 7:49 pm

ZeroGravity55 wrote:There are two blocks on the break-run. In the after part of the video where the train comes to a complete stop the first time, that's the first block. The second one is located right before the station. So they can totally do a 3 train operation. Now the question is how comfortable are they going to be doing a 3 train operation?


And that is basically my point. How comfortable can they do three train operation? Those blocks look pretty short or tight. I would think the drive tires were there to help expedite the trains moving forward to keep things moving quickly. Now that those are gone, it appears things will move more slowly. Realistically, I think the brake run needs to be longer to make it completely "comfortable".
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Re: Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroGravity55 » Thu May 24, 2018 8:09 pm

^ The drive wheels will still be there. The train can't move without them if at a complete stop. They seem to be adding the friction brakes to make sure the ride comes to a complete stop.

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Re: Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

Postby Midgetman82 » Thu May 24, 2018 8:35 pm

RailBlazer wrote:Realistically, I think the brake run needs to be longer to make it completely "comfortable".

Go to 2:19 in the video below.

Storm Chaser's magnetic brakes (which SV also has) gets the ride to a slow crawl fairly quickly when coming towards the station. Yes it might be a longer brake run, but I'm confident Steel Vengeance's magnetic brake run will stop the ride "comfortably" enough (like what was shown in the video posted in the last page). RMC know's what they're doing.

The video on the previous page looks like it now has a longer solid strip of magnets to stop it harder instead of the previous "magnets + wheels" assembly.
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Re: Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

Postby Airboss » Thu May 24, 2018 8:38 pm

I think the fact that Cedar Point advertises this ride to run three trains is enough to prove that the brake run is long enough to hold them. As ZeroGravity said, the train can comfortably stop on the final brake run, therefore there are two blocks before the station. If this was not true, and a train would have to stop on the Mid Course every time there was a slow dispatch, I think it's fair to say that they wouldn't run three trains. Running three trains but sacrificing the intensity of the 2nd half of the ride for a fair bit of it's riders doesn't sound like something Cedar Point would do.

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Re: Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

Postby El Toro_Ryan » Thu May 24, 2018 10:25 pm

Airboss wrote:I think the fact that Cedar Point advertises this ride to run three trains is enough to prove that the brake run is long enough to hold them. As ZeroGravity said, the train can comfortably stop on the final brake run, therefore there are two blocks before the station. If this was not true, and a train would have to stop on the Mid Course every time there was a slow dispatch, I think it's fair to say that they wouldn't run three trains. Running three trains but sacrificing the intensity of the 2nd half of the ride for a fair bit of it's riders doesn't sound like something Cedar Point would do.


Absolutely. The ride has 6 block sections: station, transfer track, lift hill, mid course brake run, safety brake, waiting brake. The safety brake is the first section of the final brake run that brings the train to a stop. Trains are able to stack here. The waiting brake the is holding area right before the station so the final brake run is definitely capable of holding two trains. (Random fun fact but if Steel Vengeance were built back in the 70s/80s, it may have been built so that trains would stack on the midcourse brake run if dispatches were not fast enough. Gemini, Iron Dragon, and Magnum Xl are all examples of this. The reason rides were built like that was to quite literally force high throughput. Something like that could really only work back in that time period however.)

Regarding the magnetic brakes, I believe Steel Vengeance and Twisted Timbers use a new generation of magnetic brakes. From what it seems, the original magnetic brakes that were installed were not strong enough to fully stop a train. I have heard RMC came in and completely replaced all the magnetic brakes on the final brake run with more powerful ones, hence the harder stop. The drive tires are placed on the brake run because the brake run is completely flat so they are necessary to get trains moving again once they have stopped. And now it appears that RMC will be replacing the newer generation pinch brakes used on Steel Vengeance with what looks like the older generation pinch brakes. It seems there was a lot of issues with the new hardware components that RMC released with these rides but they seem to be getting it all sorted out.
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Re: Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

Postby HavenHamilton » Thu May 24, 2018 10:29 pm

Looking at making my first trip during Halloweekends this September. Staying at Hotel Breakers. Got a few questions. Is there anything that's closed due to the short 3-day weekend schedule? Or is everything (such as Perkins) open as if it's the regular operating schedule?

Also, Fridays and Sundays (not Saturdays) are the best for crowd sizes during Halloweekends, right? When's the best time to focus on rides and when's the best time to focus on haunts?

Thanks!

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Re: Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

Postby SteVeUrkle » Fri May 25, 2018 2:30 am

I have a TR from Monday and Tuesday of this week that I'm finishing up (which probably isn't relevant after the practically over-night pre-station brake run upgrade video that was shown in previous posts), but after being at the park and riding Steel Vengeance with 1 train operations, I will say this...

3 train operation on this coaster really is not necessary.

The lift hill is tall, but pretty darn fast. At the speed the train is going throughout the course, with what I experienced as ZERO braking at the MCBR, it flies through the circuit. With the restraint design on RMC's which take a bit longer than let's say, B&M's to check, a 3rd train would be redundant and cause stacking.

With how finicky the RMC trains have appeared to be on this coaster (they spent half a day on Tuesday doing maintenance on restraints and doing test runs while we stood in the plaza outside the Steel Vengeance entrance) I would say a brisk 2 train operation on this ride would be just fine. Keep 1 in the transfers ready to go if one train is being a pain in the frickinass electronically or restraint-wise, and they're all good.

Even with 1 train operation, yes, the wait was a little more than you expect from Cedar Point: but it really was a less than 2 hour wait, more around 1 hour 15 minutes, if you were in the first 2 rows of the switchback queue before the straightaway. Seeing as how this ride does not have a long enough station or brake run to unload passengers at one location, to have empty trains show up and load at another like many coasters at Cedar Point (Maverick, Millennium), the ride simply does not have a layout capable of practical 3 train operation.

Hats off to the Steel Vengeance crew by the way, they really moved when the ride was actually operating, and even with 1 train operations, the line seemed to move along pretty consistently when the thing was going.
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Re: Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

Postby El Toro_Ryan » Fri May 25, 2018 5:28 am

SteVeUrkle wrote:I have a TR from Monday and Tuesday of this week that I'm finishing up (which probably isn't relevant after the practically over-night pre-station brake run upgrade video that was shown in previous posts), but after being at the park and riding Steel Vengeance with 1 train operations, I will say this...

3 train operation on this coaster really is not necessary.

The lift hill is tall, but pretty darn fast. At the speed the train is going throughout the course, with what I experienced as ZERO braking at the MCBR, it flies through the circuit. With the restraint design on RMC's which take a bit longer than let's say, B&M's to check, a 3rd train would be redundant and cause stacking.

With how finicky the RMC trains have appeared to be on this coaster (they spent half a day on Tuesday doing maintenance on restraints and doing test runs while we stood in the plaza outside the Steel Vengeance entrance) I would say a brisk 2 train operation on this ride would be just fine. Keep 1 in the transfers ready to go if one train is being a pain in the frickinass electronically or restraint-wise, and they're all good.

Even with 1 train operation, yes, the wait was a little more than you expect from Cedar Point: but it really was a less than 2 hour wait, more around 1 hour 15 minutes, if you were in the first 2 rows of the switchback queue before the straightaway. Seeing as how this ride does not have a long enough station or brake run to unload passengers at one location, to have empty trains show up and load at another like many coasters at Cedar Point (Maverick, Millennium), the ride simply does not have a layout capable of practical 3 train operation.

Hats off to the Steel Vengeance crew by the way, they really moved when the ride was actually operating, and even with 1 train operations, the line seemed to move along pretty consistently when the thing was going.


I'm going to have to disagree with you, that 3rd train is absolutely not redundant! SV takes nearly 3 minutes to fully cycle around the course. While the crew at the ride is absolutely top notch and capable of loading trains in 60 seconds flat, the length of the ride greatly reduces throughput. I have personally seen the ride run with two trains and I did not see the crew stack a train once! Kudos to the crew! However, the amount of idle time between when a train left the station and when the one behind it pulled in was very long, probably close to a minute in time. And when it came to dispatching a train, the crew was often waiting until the train on the course flew through the overbank behind the station. With this, the ride is basically limited to 2 minute dispatches when running 2 trains... which means a max hourly capacity of 720... which really means like 600-650. And with one train, you're running at 4 minute dispatches at best... so you've got a max of 360 riders per hour. If the trains held 30+ riders, this limitation on cycles wouldn't be as big of an issue.

With two trains you basically wait for a train to arrive in a station, quickly load that train, then wait again until the train on the course clears a certain section, and then you can dispatch. Where as with three trains, there will be no delay of waiting for a train to arrive in the station. There will always be a train stacked behind the station or one rolling through the brake run. And with the quick lift hill, once the crew is done loading a train they will be able to send it right away. With three trains, I believe the ride is capable of dispatching every 72 seconds.. compared to 120 seconds with 2 trains. This is how you get your max capacity of 1200... which probably translates to around 950-1050 in the real world.

Running two trains and having the third as a backup makes sense, but just not at Cedar Point and not with the demand the ride already has. While the line may seem manageable now, it will grow out of hand once Summer and Halloweekends come around. A full Q with one train running is probably well over 4-5 hours in length. And if that happens, we will absolutely see boarding passes return. The ride should be properly designed and capable of running all 3 trains at all times and that is what RMC and Cedar Point are currently striving towards. And yes, the ride does have a long enough layout that warrants 3 train operations. Steel Vengeance is extremely comparable to Valravn (24 passenger trains, single load station, 3 train operations). And Steel Vengeance actually has an even longer layout and cycle time than Valravn. And while the brake run may seem short, that is because trains have not been decelerating as quickly as they should have been. RMC has since addressed this issue and I am very confident we will see 2 train operations return very shortly! And then 3 train operations will hopefully follow not too long after that!
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Re: Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

Postby Airboss » Fri May 25, 2018 6:28 am

Agreed with El Toro Ryan. I guess the question is: would you rather have a 30 second longer ride cycle, due to stacking with three trains, or a 30 minute longer line due to limited dispatches because they are running 2 trains? Of course those numbers are just estimates, but I would rather spend an extra couple of seconds on the brake run than many dozen extra minutes in line.

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Re: Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

Postby KIJester » Fri May 25, 2018 9:57 am

^ I just need them to get SV back on the Fast Lane + list before my trip next weekend. :lmao:

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