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Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

P. 1989: Wicked Twister's permanent closure announced!

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Matt Ouimet has totally changed the direction of Cedar Point from super-unreliable Intamin rides, to more reliable slighly-but-not-too innovative B&Ms.

Although I find these big B&Ms generally boring: they do look nice, are easily marketable, high capacity, and much more reliable than the Intamin contraptions they were building before. Can't say I blame him, I wouldn't want to run a business where thousands of people are pissed off every day and many demanding refunds if I didn't have to. I am a little surprised though that they are building a dive machine at this height, I think that if any park is eventually going to break the 500 foot mark it would be CP and a dive machine seemed like a safe and reliable way to do that (and there is plenty of space where Mean Streak is now).

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Can't help but wonder if Valravn will have some sort of themed noise on the lift hill like Banshee's scream or Fury's bee buzzing.

 

I wouldn't be surprised. Perhaps the screech of some bird or something like that, along with the safety spiel like on F325 (do they do that on all of the new CF coasters or just at Carowinds? I noticed it in I232 POV's too)

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Matt Ouimet has totally changed the direction of Cedar Point from super-unreliable Intamin rides, to more reliable slighly-but-not-too innovative B&Ms.

Although I find these big B&Ms generally boring: they do look nice, are easily marketable, high capacity, and much more reliable than the Intamin contraptions they were building before. Can't say I blame him, I wouldn't want to run a business where thousands of people are pissed off every day and many demanding refunds if I didn't have to. I am a little surprised though that they are building a dive machine at this height, I think that if any park is eventually going to break the 500 foot mark it would be CP and a dive machine seemed like a safe and reliable way to do that (and there is plenty of space where Mean Streak is now).

 

 

Super unreliable? Please list example of exactly what you are talking about and compare them to rides from other manufacturers that have never ever had problems.

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Matt Ouimet has totally changed the direction of Cedar Point from super-unreliable Intamin rides, to more reliable slighly-but-not-too innovative B&Ms.

Although I find these big B&Ms generally boring: they do look nice, are easily marketable, high capacity, and much more reliable than the Intamin contraptions they were building before. Can't say I blame him, I wouldn't want to run a business where thousands of people are pissed off every day and many demanding refunds if I didn't have to. I am a little surprised though that they are building a dive machine at this height, I think that if any park is eventually going to break the 500 foot mark it would be CP and a dive machine seemed like a safe and reliable way to do that (and there is plenty of space where Mean Streak is now).

Yeah I'd hardly call Millennium Force and Maverick "contraptions" You rarely hear of MF being down, and still gives 1.5 million rides per season after 15 years.

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Matt Ouimet has totally changed the direction of Cedar Point from super-unreliable Intamin rides, to more reliable slighly-but-not-too innovative B&Ms.

Although I find these big B&Ms generally boring: they do look nice, are easily marketable, high capacity, and much more reliable than the Intamin contraptions they were building before. Can't say I blame him, I wouldn't want to run a business where thousands of people are pissed off every day and many demanding refunds if I didn't have to. I am a little surprised though that they are building a dive machine at this height, I think that if any park is eventually going to break the 500 foot mark it would be CP and a dive machine seemed like a safe and reliable way to do that (and there is plenty of space where Mean Streak is now).

 

 

Super unreliable? Please list example of exactly what you are talking about and compare them to rides from other manufacturers that have never ever had problems.

Dick Kinzel stated in an interview with NPR that building Top Thrill Dragster was the worst decision he ever made as CEO. The ride was SBNO for half the summer the first year it was open, major disappointment. Can you imagine the amount of people that were not only upset but also went to guest relations and demanded refunds? Maverick was built the during the season in 2006 and still didn't open with the park the following year. Had to be re-profiled before it opened and was extremely unreliable for a long time. That Shoot the Rapids ride had a huge accident that made national news. Xcelerator has been SBNO more times than I can count. Intimidator 305 had to be reprofiled and rarely ever ran more than 1 train when it was new because the wheels were literally melting. Wicked Twister (and all the other impluses at the time) had to add supports. Both TTD and Xcelerators cables have frayed while the ride was running causing major PR nightmares and Millennium Force's cable has snapped while it was operating as well (although I can't really verify if this is Intamin or CF's fault, probably a mix of both). I haven't been to CP in years but last time I was there Maverick, TTD, and MF all opened late and all 4 Intamin's broke down while I was in line for them (Maverick broke down at least 10x during the day).

 

It's well known in the industry that Sandor kept giving Kinzel big discounts on new rides because of how unreliable the last ride they built was. It doesn't surprise me at all that now that they have a new CEO they have gone a much safer route.

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Matt Ouimet has totally changed the direction of Cedar Point from super-unreliable Intamin rides, to more reliable slighly-but-not-too innovative B&Ms.

Although I find these big B&Ms generally boring: they do look nice, are easily marketable, high capacity, and much more reliable than the Intamin contraptions they were building before. Can't say I blame him, I wouldn't want to run a business where thousands of people are pissed off every day and many demanding refunds if I didn't have to. I am a little surprised though that they are building a dive machine at this height, I think that if any park is eventually going to break the 500 foot mark it would be CP and a dive machine seemed like a safe and reliable way to do that (and there is plenty of space where Mean Streak is now).

 

 

Super unreliable? Please list example of exactly what you are talking about and compare them to rides from other manufacturers that have never ever had problems.

Dick Kinzel stated in an interview with NPR that building Top Thrill Dragster was the worst decision he ever made as CEO. The ride was SBNO for half the summer the first year it was open, major disappointment. Can you imagine the amount of people that were not only upset but also went to guest relations and demanded refunds? Maverick was built the during the season in 2006 and still didn't open with the park the following year. Had to be re-profiled before it opened and was extremely unreliable for a long time. That Shoot the Rapids ride had a huge accident that made national news. Xcelerator has been SBNO more times than I can count. Intimidator 305 had to be reprofiled. Wicked Twister (and all the other impluses at the time) had to add supports. Both TTD and Xcelerators cables have frayed while the ride was running causing major PR nightmares and Millennium Force's cable has snapped while it was operating as well (although I can't really verify if this is Intamin or CF's fault, probably a mix of both). I haven't been to CP in years but last time I was there Maverick, TTD, and MF all opened late and all 4 Intamin's broke down while I was in line for them (Maverick broke down at least 10x during the day).

 

It's well known in the industry that Sandor kept giving Kinzel big discounts on new rides because of how unreliable the last ride they built was. It doesn't surprise me at all that now that they have a new CEO they have gone a much safer route.

 

I go to CP every year and I see it different. Maverick and MF are never down when I am there. Raptor and Gatesleeper are down with the slightest breeze. When I went a couple weeks ago Raptor was off and on and GK was closed the whole day. While the intamins powered on. I have nothing against B&M, but there fanboys make me laugh. Gatekeeper is a chain snapper. When I went to Carowinds both !232 and Fury were down for a while. They are machines. Every ride is going to break down. And I bet when B&M steps out of there comfort box there reliability will go down the pipes.

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You must have really bad luck because of the 3x i've been to CP Dragster, Maverick, and Wicked Twister have all broken down every time i've been in line for them. I haven't been to CP in years but did go to Carowinds this year and didn't see any of their B&Ms go down and we even rode Fury in the rain several times without any issues.

 

Trust me the industry is in a much healthier state now than it was 10 years ago or so: the leadership of Kinzel and Kieran Burke brought this industry to it's knees. I was good friends with one of the maintenance managers at CP back then and he told me about when SF called them and offered to fly them out to NJ as well as pay them to help make Kingda Ka more reliable (which was not only breaking down every 30 minutes when it was open, but also had an incident and went SBNO for most of its opening summer as well). I am definitely not a B&M fanboy, I don't even like many of their new rides (i'm a Batman and Kumba guy myself), but it's extremely obvious why Intamin's aren't being built near the frequency they used to.

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Speaking of the rides breaking down when we were at the park this summer it was a clear day. Not windy... not a cloud in the sky. Really warm, low 90's, and during our visit Gatekeeper, MF, TTD, Raptor, Maverick, Rougarou, Iron Dragon, Wicked Twister, Gemini, Mean Streak, Magnum, MaXair, Skyhawk, Shoot The Rapids, and Power Tower all at some point during the 8 hour VIP Tour broke down. Thankfully we had our VIP Tour guide who had a radio and knew when the rides were down to keep us from walking across the park to ride something only to get to the ride and find out it was down.

 

With that being said everyone loves to compare how much certain rides at Cedar Point break down... but what everyone LOVES to forget/ignore is that the rides are run hard. They are going non-stop all day, everyday (aside from the off season.) They are machines. They are going to break down. Things happen. Every park, and every ride experiences down time. Sure some coasters more than others, but the point is they all break down. No coaster company is perfect, and no computer system is perfect.

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Speaking of the rides breaking down when we were at the park this summer it was a clear day. Not windy... not a cloud in the sky. Really warm, low 90's, and during our visit Gatekeeper, MF, TTD, Raptor, Maverick, Rougarou, Iron Dragon, Wicked Twister, Gemini, Mean Streak, Magnum, MaXair, Skyhawk, Shoot The Rapids, and Power Tower all at some point during the 8 hour VIP Tour broke down. Thankfully we had our VIP Tour guide who had a radio and knew when the rides were down to keep us from walking across the park to ride something only to get to the ride and find out it was down.

 

With that being said everyone loves to compare how much certain rides at Cedar Point break down... but what everyone LOVES to forget/ignore is that the rides are run hard. They are going non-stop all day, everyday (aside from the off season.) They are machines. They are going to break down. Things happen. Every park, and every ride experiences down time. Sure some coasters more than others, but the point is they all break down. No coaster company is perfect, and no computer system is perfect.

No one here is denying that downtime is part of normal operation of a park... Intamin has left an impression of having significantly more downtime than other manufacturers however...

 

I would be really curious to see a legit comparison of downtime between different rides to see who is king of that department...

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Personal peeve of mine. Running a 5 minute system reset is NOT "broke down"

 

Closing due to wind speed is not "broke down"

 

Having a cable snap or vehicle collide with brake assembly is "broke down"

 

Anything that causes the queues to be emptied is considered broken down to most people.

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^Whoa Dude! Hold your horses with the strong lip there bud! Why can't you just pick a side and stick to it man? Why ya gotta be so Switzerland? You're on the internet! Where every person that has a keyboard, and is growing up in their parents basement has a voice. Nay! A Right! Yes! A right to scream at the top of their lungs all their petty feelings on the issue. It doesn't matter if no one cares what you say, because the internet has given you a voice! And damn it! You're gonna use it! Even if you do look like a tool or a troll. You're gonna tell the world in all your poor grammar and improper punctuation just how butt hurt you feel because someone has a different opinion than you. Ooooooooooooo! My pussy is chaffing because you like this! Ahhhhhhhhh! There's sand all up in my crack cause you don't like that!

 

Get on the bandwagon man, and pick a side! You disgust me! Where's my throw up imogi?!

 

Guy "With that said, Go Intamin!" Koepp

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There's a big difference between a cherry-picked daily forecast of "how often rides from each manufacturer broke down on the day I visited the park" and a climate pattern of poor reliability over a long period of time.

 

I love the Intamin coasters, but there have been many frustrations with the ones at Cedar Point alone, not to mention long downtime, drop ride issues (maintenance and loss of life), and a revolving door of reworked restraints, trains, and design elements on multiple rides across many parks over a period of years. We want to forgive and look the other way given so many top-ten-caliber coasters, but the bad track record is just as true as the fact that they make some amazing rides.

 

Even the critical acclaim we throw at Intamin for the guts to do things like i305 and Skyrush doesn't invalidate the fact that those are "controversial" coasters that have both fielded complaints and faced modifications. Anyone remember Volcano's multi-year dormancy just after its debut? There were many days when it would simply test sporadically and leave a small line of hopefuls waiting in vain at its entrance. Getting a ride on it used to be as elusive as catching a piggy-back ride from Big Foot. It was extremely disappointing and inexcusable -- not a turnkey operation at all, and it's happened again and again...Intamin is like the baseball hitter who either clobbers the ball or strikes out, while B&M has settled into consistent bloop singles and the occasional double. It's great when Intamin and a park swing for the fences, but I can understand why park managers would sleep easier at night with a reliable B&M.

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^Whoa Dude! Hold your horses with the strong lip there bud! Why can't you just pick a side and stick to it man? Why ya gotta be so Switzerland? You're on the internet! Where every person that has a keyboard, and is growing up in their parents basement has a voice. Nay! A Right! Yes! A right to scream at the top of their lungs all their petty feelings on the issue. It doesn't matter if no one cares what you say, because the internet has given you a voice! And damn it! You're gonna use it! Even if you do look like a tool or a troll. You're gonna tell the world in all your poor grammar and improper punctuation just how butt hurt you feel because someone has a different opinion than you. Ooooooooooooo! My pussy is chaffing because you like this! Ahhhhhhhhh! There's sand all up in my crack cause you don't like that!

 

Get on the bandwagon man, and pick a side! You disgust me! Where's my throw up imogi?!

 

Guy "With that said, Go Intamin!" Koepp

 

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I think the problem with Intamin is that although they have the best designers in the world, their engineering is poor quality. They have great ideas, but they never efficiently execute them. The hydraulic launch for example was a great idea at the time yet most hydraulic launch coasters face considerable downtime. The accelerator trains were poorly designed as well, causing countless complaints about rider comfort (and don't get me started on the Skyrush trains). It seems that now oversees that they're learning from their mistakes, as they're back in the hydraulic launch game and they've redesigned their restraints to only have the lapbar portion. It's only a matter of time before we see them here again.

 

Also, I'm laughing at all of the B&M fanboys who seem to think that every mechanical thing Intamin touches will constantly be broken down. Yes, the Intamins here break down more often than other coasters, but as Robb once said have you ever seen the problems to this extent in Europe? The answer is no. They have more skilled mechanics who are better equipped to handle such complex rides, maintaining an Intamin really requires a specialized crew. The problem isn't that "Intamins are extremely unreliable", it's that "Intamins are extremely complex" and the U.S.' maintenance teams simply can't keep up right now.

 

Now, I'm not going to say anything else on this subject because that would belong in the "Intamin Drought" thread that popped up yesterday. Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion....

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Millennium Force and Maverick are my favorite rides at CP, but there's no doubt that the B&Ms are more reliable. MF doesn't seem to break down often, but Maverick does from time to time (same with Wicked Twister), and TTD seems to be closed more often than it is open.

 

At the end of the day, both companies make great rides. B&M's are more reliable and always a guest pleaser, while Intamin's are less reliable but seem to be a favorite amongst both the GP and enthusiasts. Just look at CP's social media pages. Anytime they ask "What's your favorite coaster?", 99% of people either respond MF, TTD, or Maverick.

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