Kings Island (KI) Discussion Thread

[ratdogg68]

Great job, thanks for sharing.

[Midgetman82]

Thanks all, really appreciate it!

Yes!! Very enjoyable to watch! How did you manage to slowly turn and zoom the camdera during the shot?? That was cool.

Each frame is an individual photo, and their resolutions are bigger than the video frame, so I could zoom and pan around the large image.

[DirkFunk]

I would assume that the antique cars would be added, but certain coasters do not run well in colder weather.

 

We're still doing this, huh?

 

Revolution can't have lapbars because its illegal in CA to have inversions without OTSRs. Wood coasters can't launch or go upside down. It's impossible to put floorless trains on a standup coaster because the heartline is totally different.

[thrillrider]

I would assume that the antique cars would be added, but certain coasters do not run well in colder weather.

 

We're still doing this, huh?

 

Revolution can't have lapbars because its illegal in CA to have inversions without OTSRs. Wood coasters can't launch or go upside down. It's impossible to put floorless trains on a standup coaster because the heartline is totally different.

Huh?

[prozach626]

Just a little comical sarcasm.

[coasterbill]

Revolution can't have lapbars because its illegal in CA to have inversions without OTSRs. Wood coasters can't launch or go upside down. It's impossible to put floorless trains on a standup coaster because the heartline is totally different.

 

[Midgetman82]

It took me a hot minute to get it. Clever, you are.

[prozach626]

The first sentence caught me off guard, but I saw the poster and I know he knows better.

[RAWKIN_coaster38]

In my two and a half years of living out here I still haven't been to Jungle Jim's despite all the praise for it. I guess I have been somewhat avoiding it because I have a weakness for groceries and at no point have I been like, "Hey, I have enough disposable income right now, I should totally go spend $200 on specialty groceries today." I didn't know about all the cool stuff to see though so I will definitely make it more of a priority especially when I'm looking for stuff to do this January.

 

I barely made it to two hours of WinterFest on Friday but I took some pictures while I was there. I haven't had time to even think about putting them up but when finals are over I'll hopefully get the chance to do so, and also tell the story of the shopkeeper who stole my Secret Santa animals.

 

I'll share just a few pictures for now to whet the appetite and in case I never get around to posting the rest, at least I contributed a little holiday cheer to this thread

[DirkFunk]

People are told complete BS all the time by parks - like obvious bold faced lies - and run with it as being truth. Is there actually a temperature listed in the B&M operations manuals that prevents them from running in the cold? I mean, I seriously doubt that there is if for no other reason than Six Flags does it *all the time* and Dollywood does it *all the time* and BGW does it *all the time* and SDC does it *all the time*. If they aren't following the manual of procedures as set by the manufacturer, they're going to run into all sorts of gnarly issues with insurance. It also means I have to believe Ohio has more regulatory requirements than Ed Markey's home state of Massachusetts or the state where they forced Great Adventure to redo the control system of Kingda Ka, lest it actually operate at the same time as Zumanjaro.

[WolfBobs]

People are told complete BS all the time by parks - like obvious bold faced lies - and run with it as being truth. Is there actually a temperature listed in the B&M operations manuals that prevents them from running in the cold? I mean, I seriously doubt that there is ....

 

Here is what I know. I worked as a ride operations supervisor for GL for a few seasons during the CF era. We were flat out instructed by maintenance not to begin test running rides until temperatures were above 40f and that that was the recommendation from B&M and other ride manufacturers. Was this listed in our SOP? I honestly can't remember. And our SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) were written in house based off the recommendations from every ride manufacturer.

 

I never once saw an original ride manual for any ride in the park and most SOPs at the time were carry overs from the pre-SF days or the SF days. (ironically some terminated SF management took SOPs with them and we had to rewrite a lot of the ones we used based off tribal knowledge) A lot of times an SOP would be typed up from being on-site with the engineers and being taught to operate the rides from them. I was there when XF was being installed for example. We would then take that info and write our manuals.

 

So I can't confirm or deny the fact that there is a written recommendation on operating temps. But even as an operator we were told that 40 degree mark was the magic number. Again probably doesn't help since we know some parks and some chains operate below this mark but while I was at a CF park we were forbidden to start testing if it was below that mark.

[DirkFunk]

Here is what I know. I worked as a ride operations supervisor for GL for a few seasons during the CF era. We were flat out instructed by maintenance not to begin test running rides until temperatures were above 40f and that that was the recommendation from B&M and other ride manufacturers. Was this listed in our SOP? I honestly can't remember. And our SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) were written in house based off the recommendations from every ride manufacturer.

 

And that's fine. Let me ask you: Do you think New Jersey would not have it regulated multiple times in the 232 pages of amusement industry regulations (I cheated and looked already, obviously) that parks defer to operations manuals provided to them by the manufacturers? Alternately, do you think it's possible that there was a determination made in-house by someone at CF as to what "safe operating temperature was" which was above the possibly nonexistent such figure provided by the manufacturer? Consider the preponderance of evidence for a moment. I'm not telling you that it isn't true, but I'm just asking you to think critically.

 

Which do you think sounds better to tell a front line employee (who will then interact with guests outside the closed ride): "Maintenance determined that the ride was unsafe to run because of temperatures" *OR* "management would like to skip staffing this attraction if possible to save a few bucks at the end/beginning of the season when crowds would be expected to be light, ergo it's closed, please visit our souvenir stand"?

[Jew]

I've never seen an operating manual from a manufacturer not have some sort of information on weather. At the very least, they all mention "In case you couldn't figure this out on your own, rides are giant lightning rods." That being said, I have not seen a B&M one, so can't speak to that specifically.

 

However, it is not far fetched to assume cold weather plays a role in the operation of a ride, given that there are so many variables. It not surprise me at all if Cedar Fair had their own internal policy based on their past experiences with rides, which once they codify it into their own SOP, counts the same as the manufacturer SOP for legal purposes.

[WolfBobs]

Here is what I know. I worked as a ride operations supervisor for GL for a few seasons during the CF era. We were flat out instructed by maintenance not to begin test running rides until temperatures were above 40f and that that was the recommendation from B&M and other ride manufacturers. Was this listed in our SOP? I honestly can't remember. And our SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) were written in house based off the recommendations from every ride manufacturer.

 

And that's fine. Let me ask you: Do you think New Jersey would not have it regulated multiple times in the 232 pages of amusement industry regulations (I cheated and looked already, obviously) that parks defer to operations manuals provided to them by the manufacturers? Alternately, do you think it's possible that there was a determination made in-house by someone at CF as to what "safe operating temperature was" which was above the possibly nonexistent such figure provided by the manufacturer? Consider the preponderance of evidence for a moment. I'm not telling you that it isn't true, but I'm just asking you to think critically.

 

Which do you think sounds better to tell a front line employee (who will then interact with guests outside the closed ride): "Maintenance determined that the ride was unsafe to run because of temperatures" *OR* "management would like to skip staffing this attraction if possible to save a few bucks at the end/beginning of the season when crowds would be expected to be light, ergo it's closed, please visit our souvenir stand"?

 

Oh I'm not saying you're wrong. And I'm not saying the 40 degree temp is right. Not even trying to argue as I think it's ridiculous. I'm just saying what I know from experience and what we were told from our maintenance guys. Is it true? I don't know. Could they just be over cautious so they don't have to do an evac on a ride that didn't complete it's course? Maybe. There were plenty of mornings we tried to test run in late October and trains wouldn't make it through the course. First runs for each train were always white knuckle hoping you'd see it hit the brake runs!

 

The 40 degree mark we used could have easily come from an insurance lawyer who decided what was best.

 

But this could be settled easily with some interviews! A lot of industry fan websites and vlogs have been interviewing ride designers like the gentlemen from B&M, Intamin, Vekoma and RMC, someone should ask! I'd love to see some ride/park urban legends put to rest from the designers themselves!

[coasterbill]

I seriously doubt that there is if for no other reason than Six Flags does it *all the time* and Dollywood does it *all the time* and BGW does it *all the time* and SDC does it *all the time*.

 

This. Not to mention that Cedar Fair does it all the time too.

 

Does anyone honestly believe that Cedar Fair would give a sh*t about this if it were (let's just say) 38 degrees on the final Saturday of Haunt with 30k+ people in the park? Every coaster at Cedar Point, Valleyfair and Kings Dominion has operated below this arbitrary number at one point and the same is likely true for many other parks in the chain.

 

I'm pretty sure it was below those temps for Steel Vengeance, Twisted Timbers and Banshee media day. Did they send the media home?

 

Plus, while they don't run many coasters for Winterfest they've already run Dominator, Racer75, Afterburn and others below 40 degrees and they ran Mystic Timbers into the high teens / low 20's last year routinely. They even sent a test train when the tracks were covered in snow and it ended up stopped somewhere in the woods.

 

I'll share just a few pictures for now to whet the appetite and in case I never get around to posting the rest, at least I contributed a little holiday cheer to this thread

 

Great photos!

[Jew]

To be fair, every ride, park, and chain will all have somewhat unique operating practices.

 

I remember being in line for Mantis when it shut down in the rain and then wouldn't re-open until after they completed the block check again. That is something we most definitely did not do at SFMM with RRv.

 

None of us truly know, so we're all assuming at this point.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Jew

[DirkFunk]

LOL, well, yeah - of course parks have different policies. I think that's the gist of the last two pages. They can change them too. Cedar Point used to run their coasters in the rain up until the Magnum incident where two trains bumped. Then this year, it was back to running in the rain again. What changed? Certainly wasn't state law.

[grsupercity]

LOL, well, yeah - of course parks have different policies. I think that's the gist of the last two pages. They can change them too. Cedar Point used to run their coasters in the rain up until the Magnum incident where two trains bumped. Then this year, it was back to running in the rain again. What changed? Certainly wasn't state law.

 

I think I read somewhere that after the bump magnum was retrofitted with a magnetic braking system. I could easily be wrong though so if I am please don't burn me at the stake

[Jew]

LOL, well, yeah - of course parks have different policies. I think that's the gist of the last two pages. They can change them too. Cedar Point used to run their coasters in the rain up until the Magnum incident where two trains bumped. Then this year, it was back to running in the rain again. What changed? Certainly wasn't state law.

 

Every state that has laws on the books regarding amusement rides essentially boil down to: follow your SOP's. So technically the "state law" thing is true, so long as the park has their policy in the SOP...

[bill_s]

I seriously doubt that there is if for no other reason than Six Flags does it *all the time* and Dollywood does it *all the time* and BGW does it *all the time* and SDC does it *all the time*.

 

This. Not to mention that Cedar Fair does it all the time too.

 

Does anyone honestly believe that Cedar Fair would give a sh*t about this if it were (let's just say) 38 degrees on the final Saturday of Haunt with 30k+ people in the park? Every coaster at Cedar Point, Valleyfair and Kings Dominion has operated below this arbitrary number at one point and the same is likely true for many other parks in the chain.

 

I'm pretty sure it was below those temps for Steel Vengeance, Twisted Timbers and Banshee media day. Did they send the media home?

 

Plus, while they don't run many coasters for Winterfest they've already run Dominator, Racer75, Afterburn and others below 40 degrees and they ran Mystic Timbers into the high teens / low 20's last year routinely. They even sent a test train when the tracks were covered in snow and it ended up stopped somewhere in the woods.

 

I'll share just a few pictures for now to whet the appetite and in case I never get around to posting the rest, at least I contributed a little holiday cheer to this thread

 

Great photos!

 

KD also ran Dominator on the day in 2012 that hurricane Sandy blew Star Jet into the ocean, and I have no idea how much cold alone it would take to slow it down as much as the cold and wind combined slowed it down that day. Nevertheless, now that it's Winterfest they're cutting it at 39 degrees exactly, even if it's already running. They closed it about 5:30 on last Friday (5:00 park opening) which would have been about that temperature. They even sent around only 4 people in the train after cutting the line, certainly not something you'd do if there were actual problems completing the course.

[CoasterNerd87]

Just my two cents on the temperature thing. It isn't necessarily just the temperature that plays a role. It's the amount of time it takes for the trains to make a circuit. There usually is a time that once it passes, it becomes more of a probability instead of a possibility that the train will valley. Take into account how long it takes for the train to stop moving enough to clamp, temperature, and time to evacuate the train, it would make more sense to err on the side of caution. If the daytime temperature doesn't warm up enough, you're talking about the grease not getting loose enough to even think about it. I'm no expert but I wouldn't want to be stuck on a coaster in 30s waiting to be pulled off in a lift.

[coasterbill]

There usually is a time that once it passes, it becomes more of a probability instead of a possibility that the train will valley.

 

This is exactly the opposite of how it generally works (at least on all of Great Adventure's coasters that run for Holiday in the Park). As time passes the rides run faster and faster as they keep cycling to the point where even if the temperature drops considerably (or the wind picks up considerably) after dark the rides haul ass because they've been running for about 5 hours straight. If a ride is going to valley it will almost always do it at the beginning of the day (probably during testing).

[Jew]

summary of the last 5 pages: Every ride is different because there are so many variables unique to each ride.

[prozach626]

The focus of Winterfest doesn't seem to be on rides, which is contrary to Six Flags. Both park chains offer different experiences. I think if there's any chance one of their few coasters which are open might valley, it's just serves them no purpose to risk it when they clearly don't cater to thrill seekers for Winterfest. Six Flags may operate rides in colder temperatures, because it needs them to draw a crowd.

 

As much as I enjoy HITP, I think the strategy that CF takes is smarter. Less wear and tear. Less maintenance. Less staffing. More focus on Holiday activities. If I had kids, I would be more interested in taking them to a Winterfest event vs. HITP. I personally don't think the ride operations at Cedar Fair have anything to do with laws that possibly don't exist and manufacturer's recommendations. It's also important to remember that a manufacturer's recommendations may have nothing to do with safety and more to do with the general performance of the ride.

[coasterbill]

^ I agree with this 100%.