The Six Flags Magic Mountain (SFMM) Discussion Thread

[DJeXeL]

It's amazing how many enthusiasts don't want to admit that modern B&M wing and dive coasters are mostly forceless, probably because they're easily impressed.

 

Look at this guy. See this, this is why I don't like enthusiasts. This right here.

 

Okay, so where do we begin? First of all, tons of people are "willing to admit" that B&M coasters can be forceless, but that doesn't mean they're not a ton of fun. No, just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't mean that they're "easily impressed". That's incredibly arrogant. My fiance for example has been on (I hate doing this but it's necessary for the argument) over 250 coasters now, including things like El Toro, Wicked Cyclone, Maverick, Intimidator 305 and Fury 325 and what's her favorite? Gatekeeper. I don't get it, I never will... but it doesn't mean she's easily impressed. Some people just like different things. Your opinion does not reign supreme. There's a reason Gatekeeper and Valravn pull huge lines despise their great capacity.

 

So rather than wasting $20 million on a crappy forceless dive coaster, more parks should save up for even more thrilling GP crowd pleasers like launchers and alternate position coasters

 

If I were you I'd call up the parks and let them know. Since you're an expert on what everyone wants and what coasters deliver the best return on investment you should call up their management divisions one at a time and inform them that you've crunched the numbers and that they shouldn't "waste money" on a Dive Coaster that you personally wouldn't like when they should be investing in "alternate position coasters".

 

There's a reason Maverick is now more popular than Gatekeeper despite being in the back of the CP

 

And finally this gem. You were hoping to bury it so that nobody would call you out on your bull*** weren't you? Surprise... there's absolutely no measurable way for him to prove this point. He just made it up. He's sure as hell not going based off of ridership numbers (I believe they were last released in 2014). Gatekeeper did 1,898,204 riders, Maverick did 1,153,896 riders. Gatekeeper destroyed Maverick in this department. All of the B&M's are likely destroying Maverick and Dragster in this department since the Rougarou conversion has made that ride more popular, added a 3rd train and sped up dispatch times).

 

Now I understand that this isn't entirely fair. Gatekeeper is a high capacity people eater with 32 passenger trains. Gatekeeper also has incredible up-time. Maverick is a low capacity coaster with 12 passenger trains that breaks down constantly. It never had a chance to give more rides than Gatekeeper, but at the same time since you're not going based off of ridership numbers and the capacity argument removes your ability to use some anecdotal explanation like "Maverick has a longer line, therefore it's more popular" since it holds a MAXIMUM of 12 people per train, it's clear that you're pulling this statement that you're trying to pass off as fact straight out of your a**.

 

It might be true, but there's no way to measure that. You made it up to make it look like everyone else agrees with you. Sorry, they don't. Personally I like Maverick way more than Gatekeeper and Valravn but that doesn't make me right and I don't speak for everyone else. And more importantly I like all 3 of them and would be thrilled to have any of them in my home park.

 

Just because you make sh*t up confidently doesn't mean you're not making sh*t up. Peace.

 

 

[coasterbill]

Well, IMO, Gatekeeper is the best B&M in the park, closely followed by Valravn. The other can't even compete, and I wouldn't mind if they were removed TBH. But I'd say GK and Valravn are within the top 5 coasters in the park, with GK possibly beating out MF. I just like the feeling of flying and flipping around without forces. It's kinda cool!

 

I'm actually a big fan of all of their B&M's. I love Raptor to death (In my opinion it's one of the better inverts though I do prefer Montu and possibly Afterburn), Valravn and Gatekeeper are great and Rougarou is actually really solid too. While I prefer Intamins I actually don't think there's a B&M in existence that I don't enjoy with the exception of the standups (minus Vortex at Carowinds which I like for some reason).

 

As far as Magic Mountain goes, I love their B&M lineup too. I hate Riddler, but Batman clones are always spectacular, Scream is ugly but a solid, fun ride and Tatsu is awesome and easily my favorite flyer. Just like with Cedar Point, the B&M's may not be my favorite rides in the park (Tatsu was but I'm sure Wicked Cyclone blows it away) but they're all a ton of fun (except Riddler lol).

 

Everybody likes different things though.

[grsupercity]

Well, IMO, Gatekeeper is the best B&M in the park, closely followed by Valravn. The other can't even compete, and I wouldn't mind if they were removed TBH. But I'd say GK and Valravn are within the top 5 coasters in the park, with GK possibly beating out MF. I just like the feeling of flying and flipping around without forces. It's kinda cool!

 

That is what makes this hobby interesting. Peoples opinions vary so much. Because I think Raptor is the best B&M in the park (3rd best ride in the park) and that Gatekeeper is the worst major coaster I have ever ridden.

[Wisco Woody]

Wow Coasterbill, tough guy eh? A Stephen Colbert mic drop absolutely proves how intelligent and superior you and your opinions are. In all seriousness, go back to CP for more than one day and observe the length of the lines and crowd movements throughout the day. Raptor, my 2nd favorite invert, and Gatekeeper, my favorite wing BTW, both lose riders and have much shorter lines as the day progresses. Hell even Valravn and sometimes TTD have noticeably shorter lines as night falls, and that is because both Millennium Force and Maverick have long lines throughout the day and their lines usually only get longer.

 

Now I personally don't care much for only height and speed if it's a slow paced ride like MF, but that is what the GP loves first and foremost, and they can tell when they have ridden multiple copy/paste and cookie cutter elements on B&M coasters, and as a result they flock to the taller, faster, and faster paced rides for truly unique experiences. Dive coasters are not unique or that exhilarating for the GP as they used to be, since at several major parks there are already one or two taller and faster coasters that already have steep drops and better layouts after the drop, and if you ask regular park goers they often say that after the drop on a dive coaster they felt the rest was absolutely nothing special.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Wow Coasterbill, tough guy eh? A Stephen Colbert mic drop absolutely proves how intelligent and superior you and your opinions are.

It's not so much the Colbert mic drop that proves him right, it's the verifiability of his facts.

 

You're fairly new to this forum, so I'll tell you that just having a strong opinion isn't going to cut it around here. You can absolutely have an opinion, even if it's unpopular. What won't cut it is saying that yours is the only valid opinion, or making up "facts" that aren't rooted in reality. If you aren't a fan of Valravn, cool. If you say that Valravn wasn't a good investment, that's BS, and you're going to be called out on it.

[coasterbill]

A Stephen Colbert mic drop absolutely proves how intelligent and superior you and your opinions are.

 

I didn't offer an opinion. I said that it was stupid to offer an opinion when there's no measurable way to determine the overall popularity of each ride compared to the return on investment and maintenance costs... which it is. We should leave that to the experts. You seem to be convinced that if you like a certain coaster better than another one then that means it's a better investment and if they build something you don't like then everyone else hates it too and it's a "waste of money". That's arrogant and stupid. Period.

 

Raptor, my 2nd favorite invert, and Gatekeeper, my favorite wing BTW, both lose riders and have much shorter lines as the day progresses. Hell even Valravn and sometimes TTD have noticeably shorter lines as night falls, and that is because both Millennium Force and Maverick have long lines throughout the day and their lines usually only get longer.

 

Nobody is talking about Millennium Force, it's probably the most popular coaster in the park, the numbers show us this. Along with Magnum it has the highest theoretical capacity (if we don't count Gemini) and the second highest ridership after Gatekeeper. I think it's safe to say that it has probably overtaken Gatekeeper since the stats came out in 2014 as Gatekeeper trended slightly down from 2013 to 2014 as all new rides do unless they had significantly increased up-time in their second season like Dragster did.

 

And again, using line length to prove your point is stupid. Maverick has miserable capacity and it's in the back of the park, of course the line gets longer as the day goes on. No sh*t. Gatekeeper has spectacular capacity and is in the front of the park. Of course the line gets shorter as the day goes on and people have already ridden it. No sh*t. And again, comparing line length of an unreliable ride with a 12 car train to the line length of an ultra-reliable capacity monster with a 32 passenger train is like comparing apples to oranges. There's no way to compare the 2. We know that way more people ride Gatekeeper than Maverick every year but when you factor in downtime and capacity it's impossible to determine which ride is the most popular. It's a dumb conversation anyway since both rides are obviously very popular and it doesn't really matter, but when you speak with authority on something that's impossible to prove then I'm going to call you out on it.

 

Wow Coasterbill, tough guy eh? A Stephen Colbert mic drop absolutely proves how intelligent and superior you and your opinions are.

It's not so much the Colbert mic drop that proves him right, it's the verifiability of his facts.

 

You're fairly new to this forum, so I'll tell you that just having a strong opinion isn't going to cut it around here. You can absolutely have an opinion, even if it's unpopular. What won't cut it is saying that yours is the only valid opinion, or making up "facts" that aren't rooted in reality. If you aren't a fan of Valravn, cool. If you say that Valravn wasn't a good investment, that's BS, and you're going to be called out on it.

 

Edited September 29, 2016 by coasterbill

[Coasterguy21]

Wow Coasterbill, tough guy eh? A Stephen Colbert mic drop absolutely proves how intelligent and superior you and your opinions are. In all seriousness, go back to CP for more than one day and observe the length of the lines and crowd movements throughout the day. Raptor, my 2nd favorite invert, and Gatekeeper, my favorite wing BTW, both lose riders and have much shorter lines as the day progresses. Hell even Valravn and sometimes TTD have noticeably shorter lines as night falls, and that is because both Millennium Force and Maverick have long lines throughout the day and their lines usually only get longer.

 

Now I personally don't care much for only height and speed if it's a slow paced ride like MF, but that is what the GP loves first and foremost, and they can tell when they have ridden multiple copy/paste and cookie cutter elements on B&M coasters, and as a result they flock to the taller, faster, and faster paced rides for truly unique experiences. Dive coasters are not unique or that exhilarating for the GP as they used to be, since at several major parks there are already one or two taller and faster coasters that already have steep drops and better layouts after the drop, and if you ask regular park goers they often say that after the drop on a dive coaster they felt the rest was absolutely nothing special.

 

I like all of the rides mentioned above, but actual ridership numbers do not lie. Capacity also plays a large role in the number of people in line/how quickly the line moves. Maverick's lines won't move as quick as the B&M's and Maverick, usually, also faces some hiccups throughout the day.

 

EDIT: Coasterbill went more into detail but explained exactly what I was typing out.

[coasterkid124]

That is what makes this hobby interesting. Peoples opinions vary so much.

 

Yeah, everyone's different. People like (or hate) rides for different reasons. Personally, I thought Valravn was a let down, although I got a middle row seat. I purposely kept my expectations low, and it is actually my least favorite B&M at Cedar Point (and least favorite dive coaster).

 

That being said, I think if the park was to replace Viper, a Wing coaster would probably be better, but a Dive coaster is probably what they're going with for marketability and the price aspect of it.

[Wisco Woody]

I never said Valravn wasn't worth the investment, to build a coaster of that caliber and transform the whole area beautifully for only $20 million is impressive. What I said is it's not quite the GP magnet throughout the whole day that dive coaster lovers want you to believe. Gatekeeper is my 5th favorite CP coaster, but at only one year old it already had only 50% more riders than 7 year old Maverick despite being higher capacity, less downtime, and at the front of the park, and the same decrease in ridership will likely occur with Valravn.

 

My original and main point is that maybe we should stop hoping and asking for a cookie cutter dive coaster to come to every park, because eventually Parks will take notice and might actually start installing these dive coaster clones instead of pursuing innovation. At least Batman: The Ride was innovative and loved greatly by almost everyone, and I don't think you can say that of a dive coaster clone.

[imagineerz]

Gatekeeper is my 5th favorite CP coaster, but at only one year old it already had only 50% more riders than 7 year old Maverick despite being higher capacity, less downtime, and at the front of the park, and the same decrease in ridership will likely occur with Valravn.

 

Remember that you always see higher ridership numbers in years 2 and 3 after a ride has been installed, so we'll probably see even higher numbers in the coming two years.

 

Also, "only 50%" is a pretty loaded statement. Let's use simple numbers for this, just to keep it clean. If Maverick has 1,000,000 riders in one season, then Gatekeeper will have 1,500,000 riders. Sure, it's only 50% greater. But 50% is 500,000 people. That's a loooot of people. Even if we assume crew is hitting perfect intervals and getting to the max theoretical capacity (1,200 pph), to match that 500,000, Maverick would have to stay open for more than a month longer to hit those numbers. And that's an ideal case.

[coasterbill]

I never said Valravn wasn't worth the investment, to build a coaster of that caliber and transform the whole area beautifully for only $20 million is impressive.

 

No, you pretty much did. See...

 

So rather than wastin $20 million on a crappy forceless dive coaster, more parks should save up for even more thrilling GP crowd pleasers like launchers and alternate position coasters.

 

Also...

 

What I said is it's not quite the GP magnet throughout the whole day that dive coaster lovers want you to believe

 

Nobody was talking about that, but you have no evidence to back up this claim either. Nobody has ridership numbers on Valravn, and it's in the front of the park. When we went on Labor Day weekend it was running longer than Millennium Force each day at the end of the night (minus the day MF had passholder ERT). I won't claim to use that as evidence of anything (again... capacity), but I'm just pointing it out since anecdotal crap is the same thing you're going on.

 

Neither of us know any of these things to be true but only one of us is pretending that we know what we're talking about when we don't have any way of knowing. I'll gladly admit when it's impossible to know which ride turned out to be a better investment but some people would just rather make sh*t up. Plus it doesn't matter, the park is probably very happy to have both, as are it's patrons.

[SFMMGeek27]

Well, IMO, Gatekeeper is the best B&M in the park, closely followed by Valravn. The other can't even compete, and I wouldn't mind if they were removed TBH. But I'd say GK and Valravn are within the top 5 coasters in the park, with GK possibly beating out MF. I just like the feeling of flying and flipping around without forces. It's kinda cool!

 

That is what makes this hobby interesting. Peoples opinions vary so much. Because I think Raptor is the best B&M in the park (3rd best ride in the park) and that Gatekeeper is the worst major coaster I have ever ridden.

 

Agree! Yeah Raptor doesn't do much for me. There's nothing wrong with it, I just find it really boring. But that's true of pretty much all inverts for me. The only one I find semi-okay is Silver Bullet. Unless you're in the front row, it's just not all that fun. I only rode Raptor once on my 3 days trip, where I rode GK 6 times and Valravn 4 times.

[JGuy]

My only concern if Magic Mountain added a Dive Coaster is if they would be cheap about it. A scaled-up Oblivion clone marketed with arbitrary records that not even the GP will be impressed by would be a disappointing addition. (Shiniest coat of paint on a steel coaster in Southern California. )

 

This is a worst case scenario for a dive coaster, of course, but it's still possible.

[coasterbill]

I just find it really boring. But that's true of pretty much all inverts for me. The only one I find semi-okay is Silver Bullet.

 

To each his own always (again... I like Mean Streak), but this is the polar opposite of basically everyone on earth. By the way, I've never found any coaster of any kind "boring". Is it just me?

 

not even the GP will be impressed by would be a disappointing addition

 

They're not stupid. If they spend 20 million dollars on something the goal would be to build a ride that people actually enjoy. They're cheap but they're not idiots.

[Henry M]

I don't get it why people would call any decent sized rollercoaster boring (millennium force, B&M). I am sure there is a thread about it somewhere.

[coasterbill]

I agree with Henry. What's happening to me?

[TheCoasterKid211]

I agree with Henry.

[JordyC]

I agree with Henry.

 

 

Sorry, but this was just too funny..

[simaticable]

Bill, I have also never found a roller coaster to be boring, and to be honest, I found Mean Streak to be fun when I went to CP a couple of years ago. I just go in with no expectations and not trying to compare experiences, and I usually come off with a smile on my face and clapping onto the brake run.

[Nrthwnd]

^ You haven't been to Japan yet, right?

And not all coasters are like this one. But still, no air time, and it was still rough, too.

 

And pardon for the sidebar, here.

And the TPR crowd coming off this one, didn't seem that impressed, either.

I don't see much hand clapping, there. TPR 2013 Japan Tour.

[simaticable]

^ You haven't been to Japan yet, right?

And not all coasters are like this one. But still, no air time, and it was still rough, too.

 

And pardon for the sidebar, here.

Hey, at least it can't be any worse than the infamous B&M rattle, right?

In all seriousness, I've never felt anything but fun in B&M's and certainly no rattle. Also, I'll try any coaster before calling it boring.

[DoinItForTheFame]

. . .In all seriousness, I've never felt anything but fun in B&M's and certainly no rattle. . .

 

You haven't been on many B&M's have you?

[simaticable]

. . .In all seriousness, I've never felt anything but fun in B&M's and certainly no rattle. . .

 

You haven't been on many B&M's have you?

Not too many, but I'm not saying there's no rattle. I'm just saying I haven't felt it if it's there. The few B&M's I have ridden, I've ridden several times, and I just haven't felt a rattle in any of my rides.

[coasterbill]

. . .In all seriousness, I've never felt anything but fun in B&M's and certainly no rattle. . .

 

You haven't been on many B&M's have you?

 

I've never experienced rattling on a B&M. The only painful B&M's I've ridden are the standups.

[SFMMGeek27]

I just find it really boring. But that's true of pretty much all inverts for me. The only one I find semi-okay is Silver Bullet.

 

To each his own always (again... I like Mean Streak), but this is the polar opposite of basically everyone on earth. By the way, I've never found any coaster of any kind "boring". Is it just me?

 

not even the GP will be impressed by would be a disappointing addition

 

They're not stupid. If they spend 20 million dollars on something the goal would be to build a ride that people actually enjoy. They're cheap but they're not idiots.

 

Ok. Not boring in general, but boring by roller coaster standards. I come off most inverts saying "well that was okay I guess". There's just nothing really memorable about them for me. But I need to get back and ride Banshee. I've been liking B&M's so much more now that they're using the vest restraints instead of the OTSRs. That makes the entire world of a difference in my opinion.