Six Flags St. Louis (SFStL) Discussion Thread

[SFZIP]

If you want an interesting look at the Hannibarrels go here, not very many people have ever seen this view and it looks a lot different today without any sign that the ride ever existed at the park.

[prozach626]

If you want an interesting look at the Hannibarrels go here, not very many people have ever seen this view and it looks a lot different today without any sign that the ride ever existed at the park.

 

Those were neat pictures.

 

Thanks for sharing your info, Zip.

[SteveStL]

SFSTL did a good job of hiding it while it was on that condition.

[StlSS]

Man I'm always browsing negative G I love his shots and I stilled missed this good stuff.

[simaticable]

I thought someone confirmed that SFStL had no plans on Iron Boss. If that is the case, 2015 would not be the year for it as the park's 5 year plan would have it placed somewhere within these next few years. I understand the people here want their I-Box coaster, but if there is no plans for it, why keep mentioning it?

[theymitbgi]

Haven't posted for awhile in here just because of all the Iron Boss talk, I agree that why waste time/space talking about a dream/pure speculation. Pages of this post could be deleted if all the Iron Boss talk was gone.

 

Great pictures of the Hannibarrels, it was one of my favorite rides at the park.

 

Lastly, my family attended that Hazelwod School district STEM fair today. This is a big event where they promote careers/education in Science, Technology and Math. Six Flags St Louis was setup with a table promoting their Science/Physics day(s) at the park. They had a stack of various blueprints on the table, which I looked at a fewa and appeared to be motors, One labelled Madusa/Goliath, kinda interesting. They also had a little giveaway at their table, I haven't seen these before.

Free Giveaway!!

[StLCPfan]

I think most of us believe that a major rehab on The Boss is more likely than not to be coming within the next 5 years. They have to be aware of how much money they could be saving by not retracking the ride as much as they have to currently. The biggest problem I think most of us have with The Boss is the lack of padding in the trains. Because of the concerns about loss of momentum with the Iron Horse track with urethane wheels that occurred on NTG and IR, and the major modifications that would have to be done to The Boss' course, I personally would rather see the ride given topper track for the whole course and new Rocky Mountain designed trains with steel wheels similar to Outlaw Run's trains. I would think that only minor, if any, changes in the ride's path would be necessary, instead of the drastic change that would be necessary with Iron Horse track and soft wheeled trains.

[gerstlaueringvar]

I personally would rather see the ride given topper track for the whole course and new Rocky Mountain designed trains with steel wheels similar to Outlaw Run's trains.

 

I don't think RMC's trains are going to provide a solution. What's special about their trains is that they use springs to push the side wheels and up-stop wheels to make sure they attach to the track the whole time to eliminate the train banging around the track like normal wooden coasters. Outlaw Run finishes the course at a low speed after the barrel rolls. A normal wooden coaster's speed would not decline that much with a height of 106ft but only a length of 2000+ ft (exclude the brake run, station and lift hill). That means this new technique used on RMC trains generate a lot more friction than normal wooden coaster trains like the PTC's, Gerstlauer's, etc.

 

Only Topper Track would be okay, on a coaster like The Boss, Gerstlauer trains are enough as the airtime is not that extreme to require hydraulic lap bars to hold the riders tight.

 

But I think Iron Horse could be the best decition. The original layout is fine, but not that amazing as it gets lame at parts.

[prozach626]

I thought someone confirmed that SFStL had no plans on Iron Boss. If that is the case, 2015 would not be the year for it as the park's 5 year plan would have it placed somewhere within these next few years. I understand the people here want their I-Box coaster, but if there is no plans for it, why keep mentioning it?

 

A few people in this thread love to discuss dreams instead of reality.

Key words: Hyper, Euro Fighter, Giga, Steel, Launched, Intamin, Expansion, Etc.

 

Also, people have been talking about the necessity of a Boss rehab for years, as if it's going to happen.

Key words: Ibox, New Trains, Retracking, PTC, RMC

 

Although changes to the Boss are more likely than a new exciting addition, people forget it took us ten years to get the Batman repainted...

 

If you're not on board with any of this you're viewed as being 'negative'. Fanboy syndrome for sure.

 

Haven't posted for awhile in here just because of all the Iron Boss talk, I agree that why waste time/space talking about a dream/pure speculation. Pages of this post could be deleted if all the Iron Boss talk was gone.

 

You have to get good at skimming.

[rcjp]

I personally would rather see the ride given topper track for the whole course and new Rocky Mountain designed trains with steel wheels similar to Outlaw Run's trains.

 

I don't think RMC's trains are going to provide a solution. What's special about their trains is that they use springs to push the side wheels and up-stop wheels to make sure they attach to the track the whole time to eliminate the train banging around the track like normal wooden coasters. Outlaw Run finishes the course at a low speed after the barrel rolls. A normal wooden coaster's speed would not decline that much with a height of 106ft but only a length of 2000+ ft (exclude the brake run, station and lift hill). That means this new technique used on RMC trains generate a lot more friction than normal wooden coaster trains like the PTC's, Gerstlauer's, etc.

Interesting, I didn't know that. But is outlaw run's loss of energy throughout the course only due to this system or also due to the fact that it has quite a lot of terrain variations and maintains a relatively high speed during the entire ride?

[Vonni]

I thought someone confirmed that SFStL had no plans on Iron Boss. If that is the case, 2015 would not be the year for it as the park's 5 year plan would have it placed somewhere within these next few years. I understand the people here want their I-Box coaster, but if there is no plans for it, why keep mentioning it?

 

A few people in this thread love to discuss dreams instead of reality.

Key words: Hyper, Euro Fighter, Giga, Steel, Launched, Intamin, Expansion, Etc.

 

Also, people have been talking about the necessity of a Boss rehab for years, as if it's going to happen.

Key words: Ibox, New Trains, Retracking, PTC, RMC

 

Although changes to the Boss are more likely than a new exciting addition, people forget it took us ten years to get the Batman repainted...

 

If you're not on board with any of this you're viewed as being 'negative'. Fanboy syndrome for sure.

 

Haven't posted for awhile in here just because of all the Iron Boss talk, I agree that why waste time/space talking about a dream/pure speculation. Pages of this post could be deleted if all the Iron Boss talk was gone.

 

You have to get good at skimming.

 

 

 

It doesn't surprise me at all to hear this from you. Way to stick to your guns there buddy!

[ArizonaGuy]

I gotta agree with Prozach on this to some extent. Talking about Hyper, Euro Fighter, Giga, Steel, Launched, Intamin, Expansion, Etc. seems like a pipedream at this point.

 

As much as I'd like to see SFStL get a new signature coaster.....it's going to be a while down the road before it happens, however I will embrace the updates that they have been doing.....even the Boomerang. (thats where Prozach and I don't see eye to eye) That's totally cool with me. Quite honestly I'd probably side with Prozach a lot more if it were my home park.

[thrillseeker4552]

I personally would rather see the ride given topper track for the whole course and new Rocky Mountain designed trains with steel wheels similar to Outlaw Run's trains.

 

I don't think RMC's trains are going to provide a solution. What's special about their trains is that they use springs to push the side wheels and up-stop wheels to make sure they attach to the track the whole time to eliminate the train banging around the track like normal wooden coasters. Outlaw Run finishes the course at a low speed after the barrel rolls. A normal wooden coaster's speed would not decline that much with a height of 106ft but only a length of 2000+ ft (exclude the brake run, station and lift hill). That means this new technique used on RMC trains generate a lot more friction than normal wooden coaster trains like the PTC's, Gerstlauer's, etc.

Interesting, I didn't know that. But is outlaw run's loss of energy throughout the course only due to this system or also due to the fact that it has quite a lot of terrain variations and maintains a relatively high speed during the entire ride?

 

I think the reason Outlaw Run ends at such a low speed is due to the fact that the ride finished at a height much higher than the majority of the ride (like you said). It hauls butt entering the double barrel roll, but because the barrel rolls are fairly steep uphill, the train slows down a lot. Since Goliath at SFGAm is pretty much on all flat ground, it will probably be a better judgement of RMC trains that Outlaw Run.

[NAMTABSFGAm]

Personally, I believe the Boss should be be set ablaze and we can all have a nice bonfire from it.

[piedude81]

Personally, I believe the Boss should be be set ablaze and we can all have a nice bonfire from it.

 

I would disagree. While it is certainly painful at this point in the ride's lifespan, that doesn't mean the ride is complete garbage. It has an interesting layout, and I don't know of many coasters like it. All it needs is some TLC, whether that means a retracking, better trains, or a RMC overhaul.

 

I thought someone confirmed that SFStL had no plans on Iron Boss. If that is the case, 2015 would not be the year for it as the park's 5 year plan would have it placed somewhere within these next few years. I understand the people here want their I-Box coaster, but if there is no plans for it, why keep mentioning it?

 

I've never heard of this 5-year plan. Mind elaborating?

 

A few people in this thread love to discuss dreams instead of reality.

Key words: Hyper, Euro Fighter, Giga, Steel, Launched, Intamin, Expansion, Etc.

 

Also, people have been talking about the necessity of a Boss rehab for years, as if it's going to happen.

Key words: Ibox, New Trains, Retracking, PTC, RMC

 

Although changes to the Boss are more likely than a new exciting addition, people forget it took us ten years to get the Batman repainted...

 

If you're not on board with any of this you're viewed as being 'negative'. Fanboy syndrome for sure.

 

DON'T STOP BELIEVING! Seriously though, can't we talk about multiple things at once? I don't mind dreaming, talking about current park news, and discussing realistic 2015 attractions/additions in the same thread. Just bring up whatever you'd like to bring up, and we'll start a conversation. Okay?

[simaticable]

Every park has a 5-year plan for the most part. It allows them time to plan ahead and get the proper permits and such finished, so when the time comes, construction can start quickly. No park just decides to build a coaster immediately. They have to make sure they have a budget and such.

[theymitbgi]

I think it should also be noted that there is a LOCAL plan and a CORPORATE plan. I would think neither match up.

[StLCPfan]

Gerstlaueringvar, so far the only rides given Iron Horse treatment, NTG and IRat, have also been given new trains with urethane/nylon wheels. The increased friction and loss of momentum due to the soft wheels has made for substantial changes in the course of both of those rides for the steel track conversion. Unless Rocky Mountain plans on using steel wheels on Iron Horse track for the first time I don't think this will happen, unless Six Flags is willing to allow that major change in The Boss' course. I thought from looking at the IAAPA 2012 photos of Outlaw Run's train that the wheel assembly of Rocky Mountain's wooden coaster train was not that different from the Millennium Flyer by GCI except for being 2 bench instead of 1 bench cars. You would have to ask someone more in the know of the physics of roller coasters than myself, but I thought using traditional steel wheels on Outlaw Run allows the trains to keep more of its momentum, even with a tighter assembly of the running, side friction, and underfriction wheels. The fact that Outlaw Run is designed to be coming back UPHILL at the end of the ride is the reason the train starts to slow down at the end of the barrel rolls. The Boss was designed to keep its pacing breakneck all the way to the last double up at the end, so I don't think the trains used on Outlaw Run would cause the ride to lose much, if any, more momentum than the crappy G trains currently do, maybe even less if they are heavier. I think Six Flags really will pay attention to how the Iron Medusa transformation goes in Mexico since it and The Boss are similar in the unpopularity department and built around the same time. That is unless they have already decided to do the Boss transformation already.

 

And prozach, just because YOU aren't willing to give Six Flags any respect because you aren't getting what you want in regards of ride additions, some of us LIKE the direction they are taking SFStL in. I think most of us were disappointed more that they took OUT the bumper cars to add Boomerang, but Dave Roemer said the building was in bad shape and he is fighting for new bumper cars in the near future. And you aren't just NOT a fanboy, you are a hater at times. I understand your frustration. I'm 10+ years older than you, I worked at the park when I was in high school, and it has seemed at times to be the park corporate cared about the least, especially considering SFStL was one of the original three parks. So take some time off and enjoy SDC and Great America until you feel there is an addition worthy of your patronage again. But sometimes when you feel the need to call those of us who haven't given up hope for a new big steel coaster DREAMERS, you should just step away from the keyboard and not post your negativity.

[pixelated85]

Here's a question I'm not sure I've seen answered (perhaps I missed it): would there, in the end, really be a benefit to doing an Iron Horse treatment vs. a topper track makeover? From what I see out of their existing coasters, both styles seem to be able to maneuver the same way, perform similar elements, etc. So is the real debate over keeping the layout intact vs. overhauling it and possibly adding inversions? I've only ridden Outlaw Run out of the three, and it rode incredibly smooth with really good air. Are their Iron Horse coasters smoother? Also, could they not re-profile the layout and add inversions, all with topper track?

[gerstlaueringvar]

Gerstlaueringvar, so far the only rides given Iron Horse treatment, NTAG and IRat, have also been given new trains with urethane/nylon wheels. The increased friction and loss of momentum due to the soft wheels has made for substantial changes in the course of both of those rides for the steel track conversion. Unless Rocky Mountain plans on using steel wheels on Iron Horse track for the first time I don't think this will happen, unless Six Flags is willing to allow that major change in The Boss' course. I thought from looking at the IAAPA 2012 photos of Outlaw Run's train that the wheel assembly of Rocky Mountain's wooden coaster train was not that different from the Millennium Flyer by GCI except for being 2 bench instead of 1 bench cars. You would have to ask someone more in the know of the physics of roller coasters than myself, but I thought using traditional steel wheels on Outlaw Run allows the trains to keep more of its momentum, even with a tighter assembly of the running, side friction, and underfriction wheels. The fact that Outlaw Run is designed to be coming back UPHILL at the end of the ride is the reason the train starts to slow down at the end of the barrel rolls. The Boss was designed to keep its pacing breakneck all the way to the last double up at the end, so I don't think the trains used on Outlaw Run would cause the ride to lose much, if any, more momentum than the crappy G trains currently do, maybe even less if they are heavier. I think Six Flags really will pay attention to how the Iron Medusa transformation goes in Mexico since it and The Boss are similar in the unpopularity department and built around the same time. That is unless they have already decided to do the Boss transformation.

 

RMC trains use springs to push the side wheels and up stop wheels towards the track and everyone knows that more compression force cause more friction force that slow down the train. The thing is not about traditional steel wheels or polyurethane wheels but I can tell that NTaG added 10ft of height and removed a giant helix, iRat removed the giant helix at the upper cliff and the helix near the station. Polymath and wheels definitely give much more friction than steel wheels but RMC's new technology on trains with steel wheels gives more friction than traditional wooden coaster trains.

[StLCPfan]

And, as I said, I'm no expert, but I've seen the undercarriage/wheel assembly of both the Outlaw Run train and a GCI Millennium Flyer. The wheel assembly is quite similar. I don't believe that all three wheels of the train gripping the rails instead of being loose like a traditional wood coaster train causes THAT MUCH loss of momentum as you are implying.

 

Read other forums here regarding the new trains on IRat and NTG and how much modification they had to do to make sure the trains had enough momentum to get back to the station. And then read what you can on the topper track with the steel wheeled train Outlaw Run uses and how it compares to a traditional wood coaster train as far as friction, drag, and loss of momentum. And then look into what they are saying about the Great America Goliath with its use of topper track AND soft wheels and what the conversation is about how THAT will affect Goliath's momentum.

 

Another comparison could be Intamin's wooden coasters with urethane wheels. I know El Toro uses urethane wheels. I'm not sure about Balder, Colossos, or T Express.

 

And remember, as 3 of us informed you in previous posts, Outlaw Run is coming UPHILL back into the station, and that has more to do with the ride losing momentum at the end than the wheels.

[StlSS]

No expert here, I work on cars in my free time not roller coasters.

In My Eyes

 

Spring loading will add more friction.....But its all in the wheel.

 

Steels rigidity doesn't allow anywhere near the energy absorption of a poly urethane wheel. The virtual absence of "Give" in the steel gives it the big advantage of less friction spring loaded or not.

 

Urethane with unrivaled smoothness absorbs energy like a sponge compared to steel. The Durometer (Hardness) of these wheels is what is going to give them the friction vs steel. Expanding the footprint gives you a softer ride while gaining traction/drag.

 

 

its like an aluminum baseball bat without a grip maximum energy transfer straight into your hands, while with a grip that energy is dissipated before coming to your hands.

 

[StLCPfan]

That's what I've read also in regards to the use of steel wheel assemblies using modern suspensions to create a smoother ride for a wooden coaster experience. I don't know exactly what the details are, but I have been reading about the concerns for a urethane-wheeled train on The Boss since its design relies heavily on the terrain changes in the area of the park where it's located. The biggest concern was whether they would have to completely eliminate the final double helix if they used soft-wheeled trains instead of keeping steel wheels. I'm sure that Rocky Mountain could come up with an amazing design either way, and I don't mean to be bashing you, gerstlaueringvar. I just remember having read somewhere that someone, I believe it might have been Alan Schilke himself, made comments about the differences of what they could do in a coaster design depending upon which type of wheels they use for the train. He implied that there was a much greater loss of momentum with the Gerstlauer urethane-wheeled trains that they used on IRat and NTG versus the steel-wheeled trains they designed for OR.

[prozach626]

I'm 10+ years older than you

Congratulations

 

So take some time off and enjoy SDC and Great America until you feel there is an addition worthy of your patronage again.

I haven't been to the park in three years.

 

But sometimes when you feel the need to call those of us who haven't given up hope for a new big steel coaster DREAMERS, you should just step away from the keyboard and not post your negativity.

Prove me wrong and I'll gladly put my foot in my mouth. However, seeing as how our last major steel coaster was in 1998, I guess that makes me right.

 

If you don't like my opposing point of view, 'step away from the keyboard' and ignore it. As people have said before, it gets a little old trying to sift through the fantasy posts for good park information.

[StLCPfan]

I'm sorry that you can see Batman, Mr. Freeze, a WHOLE WATERPARK, The Boss, Excalibur, Pandemonium, Superman, Tornado, American Thunder, Sky Screamer, and Bonzai Pipeline as SFStL being neglected.