Six Flags St. Louis (SFStL) Discussion Thread

[Danrarbc]

In fairness the Six Flags CEO did reverse course last year and decided to increase capital investment. It's the reason all of the 2023 rides are late - all of the contracts were signed later than usual because it wasn't the plan all along. 

As for employment you see some cases where they're investing in systems to reduce the need for employees. Automating the toll plaza can add a handful more people to the to the workforce inside the park. Implementing the soda dispensers they're using in Six Flags Over Georgia can decouple the need for that service to be done at a manned food location. They should consider employee housing the way some Cedar Fair parks do it as well - it's easier to bring in migrant workers when you make the process easier for them. SFStL in particular is actually at a pretty big disadvantage just based on its location for employees overall though - the commute to the park is longer than many other parks in their respective cities and there's no way that isn't having some impact (this is the hardest thing to fix).

[TrippinBillie]

2 hours ago, Danrarbc said:

In fairness the Six Flags CEO did reverse course last year and decided to increase capital investment. It's the reason all of the 2023 rides are late - all of the contracts were signed later than usual because it wasn't the plan all along. 

As for employment you see some cases where they're investing in systems to reduce the need for employees. Automating the toll plaza can add a handful more people to the to the workforce inside the park. Implementing the soda dispensers they're using in Six Flags Over Georgia can decouple the need for that service to be done at a manned food location. They should consider employee housing the way some Cedar Fair parks do it as well - it's easier to bring in migrant workers when you make the process easier for them. SFStL in particular is actually at a pretty big disadvantage just based on its location for employees overall though - the commute to the park is longer than many other parks in their respective cities and there's no way that isn't having some impact (this is the hardest thing to fix).

Yes, I am aware of the reversal....but it only affected a couple parks.  Cool, he gave us a hand-me-down Vekoma crawler thing for kids that was supposed to be going to the failed Six Flags in Dubai.  And then we got a giant swing, to replace a giant swing after we lose XCalibur for next year.  If he wants to see people come through for 1 day, repeat visits or annual passes, he has GOT to invest in a coaster for the park.  You would get flood of people coming from all over.  I remember the late 90s/early 2000s when we got investment how packed it would be.  Gotta spend money to earn money.  Your cheapest ROI without it being a large, drawnout project is simply a call to RMC to complete the job at a fraction of cost for a new coaster.

[castaway_kid]

45 minutes ago, TrippinBillie said:

Yes, I am aware of the reversal....but it only affected a couple parks.  Cool, he gave us a hand-me-down Vekoma crawler thing for kids that was supposed to be going to the failed Six Flags in Dubai.  And then we got a giant swing, to replace a giant swing after we lose XCalibur for next year.  If he wants to see people come through for 1 day, repeat visits or annual passes, he has GOT to invest in a coaster for the park.  You would get flood of people coming from all over.  I remember the late 90s/early 2000s when we got investment how packed it would be.  Gotta spend money to earn money.  Your cheapest ROI without it being a large, drawnout project is simply a call to RMC to complete the job at a fraction of cost for a new coaster.

1. It is not a hand me down, it is a brand new coaster that was supposed to go to a park in China, not Dubai.

2. An RMC of the Boss is actually more expensive than the Boss was to build outright or a new ground up RMC would be.

[liltrekkie]

Honestly, while we definitely need more rides and coasters to just fill the park out more, what I believe is more important right now is also just general maintenance. Paint, gardening, general cleaning and renovations. 

 

Coasters and flat rides are cool, but a dirty and run down looking park isn't going to attract people to spend money. 

 

I'm also going to throw out a suggestion, they could take a page from Holiday World and expand the water park using that basically abandoned parking lot. Create one big spread out water park line they do. Add a second wave pool which could be smaller and maybe isn't as intense. Could of thriller water rides, maybe even a water coaster. 

[prozach626]

The problem with our park is that it treats general maintenance as a substitution for new or additions. Sometimes this comes along with a budget addition. You shouldn't have to hit the brakes and take a breather every couple years to do the shit you should have been doing all along. If there isn't enough maintenance staff for this during the off season then contract it out. Landscapers, painters, carpenters, etc. Hire them yesterday.

Rookie Racer wasn't a hand-me-down like Boomerang. It was a reallocation of resources, and a damned good one. There shouldn't be any grievance there. Joker will be a great addition. We're one RMC and a lot of TLC away from being a good park again.

I'm not even going to mention the other thing.

[parkjunkie]

12 hours ago, prozach626 said:

The problem with our park is that it treats general maintenance as a substitution for new or additions. Sometimes this comes along with a budget addition. You shouldn't have to hit the brakes and take a breather every couple years to do the shit you should have been doing all along. If there isn't enough maintenance staff for this during the off season then contract it out. Landscapers, painters, carpenters, etc. Hire them yesterday.

Rookie Racer wasn't a hand-me-down like Boomerang. It was a reallocation of resources, and a damned good one. There shouldn't be any grievance there. Joker will be a great addition. We're one RMC and a lot of TLC away from being a good park again.

I'm not even going to mention the other thing.

After working at the park for almost 15 years, late 90s in to 2000s, the biggest problem is exactly this, maintenance. Its been an issue ever since Premier took over. Premier would dump every penny they made, and then some into rides, rides rides, and of course only at select parks. Maintenance was just a memory for many years. Put a bandaid on everything... instead of dropping X amount to fix something, lets spend 3x X over 5 years with bandaids. Then you move forward to the bankruptcy and Shapiro days. Shapiro was brought in to focus on just this, maintenance, upkeep, paint, flowers.... He was brought in to get SF back on its feet and continue his motto. That didnt last long before it was back to wasteful spending, neglect of the parks, and so on.... but yet corporate cant figure out why things are so bad..... SMH

[SixFlagsOMA80]

25 minutes ago, parkjunkie said:

After working at the park for almost 15 years, late 90s in to 2000s, the biggest problem is exactly this, maintenance. Its been an issue ever since Premier took over. Premier would dump every penny they made, and then some into rides, rides rides, and of course only at select parks. Maintenance was just a memory for many years. Put a bandaid on everything... instead of dropping X amount to fix something, lets spend 3x X over 5 years with bandaids. Then you move forward to the bankruptcy and Shapiro days. Shapiro was brought in to focus on just this, maintenance, upkeep, paint, flowers.... He was brought in to get SF back on its feet and continue his motto. That didnt last long before it was back to wasteful spending, neglect of the parks, and so on.... but yet corporate cant figure out why things are so bad..... SMH

Yup - Exactly what I tell every person I know. Premier Parks killed everything great about Six Flags and turned it from a upscale Theme Park to a Dump. I mean come on, Season Passes are the same price today under our new CEO then they were under Time Warner. I still go to the park because I have memories of my childhood but it is very sad to see it in it's current state, we can't even replace lights that go out.  

[thisdougsforu]

We refrained from visiting this year. There were a few weekends where we talked about going to Fright fest, but figured the experience would ultimately be a crappy one so we'd wait it out. Sounds like the right decision was made. 

I really don't have much to add here that hasn't been said as of late, but I'll pile on. My family of 5 (late 30's, 3 kids) won't be spending our money at SFSL until things change. We took road trips this year to other parks and plan to do that next year as well. Despite being a bit pricier, WAY more value for the dollar.

The kiddie coaster was a VERY smart addition. I think the disc ride is as well. But I feel fairly confident that despite those things being added, it will not be a good time at the park due to the standard stuff that we always talk about here. Understaffed, dirty, attractions down, etc. All of those things I just mentioned are indications of crappy companies, albeit non-amusement companies have different but similar comparisons.

As we've all discussed here plenty, SFSL has a great set of bones. I used to think it was a headlining coaster away from being a really good park. I've changed my opinion on that some- the park needs a good headlining coaster AND the general park experience to be better- and that means various things mentioned earlier being fixed. I think a new big time coaster would get a ton of new people in the door but if the experience they have is similar to how it's gone for many the last few years in regards to the rest of the park, it would be a simple one and done. 

I hope the park can get it together. It would be nice to eventually look forward to visiting it again, and on the reg. 

[SixFlagsOMA80]

Cedar Fair is in possible talks to merge with Six Flags.... 

[Danrarbc]

3 hours ago, SixFlagsOMA80 said:

Cedar Fair is in possible talks to merge with Six Flags.... 

Again?

I'd be down if Cedar Fair leadership retains full power. Not so much if Six Flags ownership does.

[SixFlagsOMA80]

1 hour ago, Danrarbc said:

Again?

I'd be down if Cedar Fair leadership retains full power. Not so much if Six Flags ownership does.

This time cedar fair made the offer. In 2019 Six Flags made the offer. I’d assume Cedar Fair leadership would stay in place. 

[Danrarbc]

This merger would raise some questions around what happens to certain parks. There are markets where both chains currently operate a park (and others that are in close proximity) - how on earth do they manage that situation? Would regulators require the combined company sell some parks to others in order to maintain some additional competition that will otherwise be lost?

Is a sell off already part of the plan as that would help offset any capital spent on the deal?

[SixFlagsOMA80]

https://s2.q4cdn.com/170666959/files/doc_presentations/2023/11/FINAL-Investor-Presentation-11-02-2023.pdf 

 

View the power point for more details on the merger. 

[Danrarbc]

"Greater flexibility to invest in new rides and attractions, broader food and beverage selections, additional in-park offerings, and cross-park initiatives"

"Leverage Cedar Fair’s recent park investments experience to accelerate the transformation underway across Six Flags’ portfolio"

It certainly sounds like the plan is to roll the kinds of improvements Cedar Fair has been making at their parks over the last several years out to the Six Flags parks too. And to do so within 3 years.

[thisdougsforu]

There's a lot one could discuss with this merger and in general I find these kinds of things to be terrible.....but looking at this strictly from the SFSL perspective, I see this as probably the most positive news ever for this park, at least in the last couple decades. It'll either be improved or sold off. I'd expect the former, especially given this isn't one of the markets where CF/SF are competing against each other.

The PR makes it sound like they are going to goose the SF parks with attractions, but even if they don't hopefully things will FINALLY improve operationally here. 

[Danrarbc]

Oh this merger is absolutely terrible for anyone working for Six Flags' corporate office. That will be shutting down and the Sandusky and Charlotte Cedar Fair offices will be running the entire operation. That's the primary cost savings they'll realize here.

But for park guests it's probably the best case scenario.

[TrippinBillie]

As long as SOMEONE f*&%$@g RMCs the Boss, I really don't care LOL

[thisdougsforu]

3 hours ago, TrippinBillie said:

As long as SOMEONE f*&%$@g RMCs the Boss, I really don't care LOL

I always figured an RMC Boss was the absolute best case scenario for this park. That was until this merger/acquisition was announced though!

I trust that Cedar Fair will probably decide that in order to make more money at this park it's best to invest in attractions and experiences that make people want to actually buy tickets and spend more money at the park. 

Or sell it off.

I don't see a sell off happening here though. Too much good shit to work with.

But yeah, it'll either be improved or sold. Better for one or the other to happen, IMO. I feel like this whole deal ends the days of perpetual "just gettin' by" that this park has operated under as long as I've personally been visiting it. Or at least finally numbers the days where it's like that. 

[SteveStL]

5 hours ago, TrippinBillie said:

As long as SOMEONE f*&%$@g RMCs the Boss, I really don't care LOL

and will Cedar Fair save our pathetic carousel?

[KBrylczyk]

36 minutes ago, SteveStL said:

and will Cedar Fair save our pathetic carousel?

Maybe they'll send CGA's double decker once that park actually closes.

[teacherkim]

OK, my 2 cents and a story about the boy that used to work at the park as a cautionary tale about lack of management, sorry this is long so read at your own discretion: 

First I have said before and say again that staffing is one of the biggest improvements needed; across the board, to improve a lot of what you all are complaining about. Now I 100% know that this is easier said than done and agree with whomever stated up thread that the park's location is a great hindrance to this. In addition our park is VERY seasonal and has very few full time jobs so they rely almost entirely on students, retirees, and teachers looking for brief summer work. However, they also shoot themselves in the foot. For example when they reopened after the initial Pandemic shutdown ride op pay was increased, which was nice since after all they were all being required to wear masks outside in the summer heat AND were taking a lot of extra crap from guests over all the policies. Fast forward to the 2023 season and all the ride op pay was reduced back to pre-Pandemic levels. Seriously. Essentially demote those that stuck with you through a couple years of crap? I mean I could maybe see new hires starting out at the old pay. But reduce employees that had been faithful to the park?

Second they have to get a proper park President. This whole "sharing" one with the Chicago park is bull. I also think the slashing of middle management that happened a couple years ago is taking a toll. I'll give you a real world example of the effects of this. My son started working at the park as a ride op just before his 16th birthday. He was thrilled. Stayed working there through the Pandemic and all it entailed. Stuck out the summer he was mostly on kid's rides which he did not like. Kept it up through a couple years of Community College (his choice, he just wasn't into a big 4 year school), planned on staying this season even after the pay cut. Even stuck it out when he was inexplicably moved from AT/Log Flume which he really liked to Batman which he was not happy about because he knew the ride crew was not great. No one asked for this move and the leads and supers had no idea why it happened. He was a good ride op. Knew more about how the rides operated than a lot of the supervisors. Worked a majority of the rides in the park. Cleaned up his share of barf without complaining. Never called in and worked every shift he was scheduled, did day off requests way ahead of time and as prescribed by policy. Had more than one incident where he noticed restraints had not been checked by someone else or there was a problem and kept an unsafe train from going out. Etc, etc, you get the picture. Well the policy had always been 3 safeties and then a ride op lost their ride badge, essentially a 3 strikes and you are out rule. Safeties are issued anytime a ride op basically does something unsafe, like cross in front of a train without permission for example. He had never received a safety after 4 full seasons. Early this summer he gets a safety for not looking long enough at the boats on the log flume at the bottom of the first lift hill before launching a new boat. For those that are unaware if they are allowed to stack at the first hill they fill up with water and sink. Yeah. He wasn't written up for not checking, the super just didn't think he looked long enough. Ok. You do get to write out your side of the story, which he did but basically laughed it off as the super having a bad day instead of fighting it. Fine. Then after he is moved to Batman they are loading a train, he is at the panel, ALL ride ops give their thumbs up that restraints are checked and they are in the safe zone and the way is clear. He launches the train, then one of the ops moves out of the safety box and he has to e-stop the train for the ops safety. Safety issued to each member of the crew. Reports written out. Super tells him standard procedure, don't worry it won't stand, only the op that moved where they shouldn't have will get the safety. Nope. Entire crew gets safety and oh yeah we reduced it from 3 to 2 so they pull his ride badge.

Now it is what it is. Shit happens and we all get screwed sometimes and have to pay our dues. Hard lesson learned, he probably could have and should have gotten the first safety reversed. And to be totally fair he knew it was his last season.  At this point there are 3 weeks of daily operations left. He cannot go on rides again until next season, which he knows he won't be coming back because he will need to move on and get a real full time adult job since he is finishing up school. But they tell him they need people to do fastpass and he can do that. He says fine, he had planned on the income for those weeks and will just stick it out. Ok, fast pass will call you. Several days go by and no call. After 3 weeks, several phone calls on his part and a physical visit to human resources...............they apologize with a so sorry Person A thought Person B had called and Person B thought Person A had called and no one seemed to notice you weren't being scheduled............!

Why the long tale? This caused him to lose 3 weeks of expected pay, the park to be short in two departments while an employee was available and wanting to work, an unnecessary blow to a young man's self esteem, and an abrupt end to what had been a proud employee. IF there had been better management in place all of this could have been avoided. Without a dedicated park president and a team that is beholden to him or her on a daily basis things and people are falling through the cracks. I believe better management could have provided training to get him his ride badge back (I am NOT advocating that they skimp on safety issues but clearly there should be some nuance here by a higher up that can evaluate the situation, the whole ride crew did not deserve a safety) or at least get him moved over within a day to the other department, not just "oh didn't you get called, we had no idea"  Clearly no one was checking their voicemail or email or getting messages from HR. Meanwhile, he was still getting emails asking him to take shifts on Batman despite his badge being pulled and they were advertising for employees needed at fastpass. And why is fastpass a whole separate crew? Ride ops can do it instead of paying someone to just stand at the fastpass entrance and do nothing else but scan people in. He wasn't fired, he wasn't scheduled, he was in a void for 3 weeks.

I could go on but you get the idea. Management seems to be a total mess right now and that has got to get fixed in order to improve all the things that make a park a great park. I have no idea if they couldn't find a qualified park pres or if they just decided to do it on the cheap; but it is not working to share.

We can go back and forth with whether or not the landscaping is up to par. Something I tend to notice. If the ride lineup is good. If the special events are done well. Yada, yada, yada.......but until they properly manage the park and employees none of that will show huge improvement. I agree that RR and the new flat for next year are positive improvements but they have to get the management situation fixed. I am VERY curious to see how this plays out with the new CF merger! As well as what it means for season passes. We have kept our DE VIP memberships not so much just for our park but because we travel to multiple parks every year.

Currently this is one of the more active threads, not sure if it's because we are a bitchy bunch, passionate about our park,  a little of both? In the end good or bad this park holds a lot of memories for me and I really really do want to see it succeed. So moving forward and fingers crossed.

And just in case anyone is wondering. Joel is fine. He did work about a month's worth of weekends dong fastpass, after they realized oh yeah we should schedule you, just because it was convenient money while job hunting during the week. He finished some school, got some IT certifications and is now working, at age 20,  his first full time adult job as a field technician for a big and well established tech company.

[teacherkim]

Sorry that was brutal, but it felt good to get it off my chest because the whole thing has been bothering me for months AND I thought the story was pertinent to much of what is happening at the park right now!

[teacherkim]

On 11/2/2023 at 12:54 PM, thisdougsforu said:

I always figured an RMC Boss was the absolute best case scenario for this park. That was until this merger/acquisition was announced though!

I trust that Cedar Fair will probably decide that in order to make more money at this park it's best to invest in attractions and experiences that make people want to actually buy tickets and spend more money at the park. 

Or sell it off.

I don't see a sell off happening here though. Too much good shit to work with.

But yeah, it'll either be improved or sold. Better for one or the other to happen, IMO. I feel like this whole deal ends the days of perpetual "just gettin' by" that this park has operated under as long as I've personally been visiting it. Or at least finally numbers the days where it's like that. 

I don't see it being a sell off either. Closest competition is 3 hours a way and most of the GP are not going to travel that more than once a year. I do see them trying to use WOF and SFSTL to gang up on SDC. Don't know if that is possible but I do think they will try to steal some business. I mean if you live anywhere in the middle of the state and have a pass that gets you into both parks. This is all total speculation of course, but waiting on pins and needles to see how it pans out.

[SixFlagsOMA80]

In the 70’s thru the early 00’s there was not the staffing issue there is too and less ppl lived in the area. I don’t think the park being in Eureka is the issue. Most kids are more lazy today and don’t want to work. Also min wage in Missouri is $12. I don’t think theme park ppl should be paid $20 an hour when corporate jobs start at $20 an hour. This is why we have an inflation problem. I would agree management is the reason why ppl no longer want to work there and/or stay there. 

[teacherkim]

9 hours ago, SixFlagsOMA80 said:

In the 70’s thru the early 00’s there was not the staffing issue there is too and less ppl lived in the area. I don’t think the park being in Eureka is the issue. Most kids are more lazy today and don’t want to work. Also min wage in Missouri is $12. I don’t think theme park ppl should be paid $20 an hour when corporate jobs start at $20 an hour. This is why we have an inflation problem. I would agree management is the reason why ppl no longer want to work there and/or stay there. 

They aren't getting $20, pay is $14 - $15 for most positions, and that is on par with most part time jobs at fast food joints and retail establishments. For a couple years during the Pandemic it was raised to $18 but as I stated that was taken away. 

As a parent and retired teacher I think "kids nowadays are too lazy" is a vast oversimplification of the issue. Just like we have inflation because wages went up is too simple an explanation, inflation is due to a number of factors and isn't even close to what it was in the early 70's when the park opened. Since our park is in a generally more affluent area it isn't that kids are lazy it's more that they are being pushed by parents and schools to spend their summers and weekends devoting massive amounts of time to extra curriculars (sports and clubs) and/or classes and camps. This is under the mistaken belief that it pads a college resume. I cannot tell you how much I disagree with this thinking. If you talk to college recruiters it isn't as important as most people think, a job is just as meaningful to them and they are missing out on real world skills that cannot be learned in the shelter of school and subsequent school sponsored activities. 

Meanwhile, the district I taught in was just plain poor. Those kids would have loved more opportunities to work, especially over the summer, but they didn't have a lot of choices close enough to home that made it easy to get to. I mean it would have been an hour+ round trip without traffic issues to get to SFSTL.

And as a postscript I really believe most of the employees are doing their best with what they have have to work with. I mean look at all the employees that stayed despite their pay going down.