Alton Towers Discussion Thread

[gerstlaueringvar]

^But the real concerning thing is, no matter how dumb you think the control system is, it is still smarter then the ENGINEERS!

 

I think with a control system like what you described, it is likely to get the "ghost train" error more frequently so it will take a huge amount of time to work everything out.

[COASTER FREAK 11]

All coasters at Disney run this way. Each block has a time limit, and if it is exceeded, the alarm sounds and the ride will e-stop all on its own. AND THEN, it requires you to actually walk out to the area where the fault occurred, and clear the system from there. So you'd have to actually see the area before releasing a train.

[djrappa]

The thing is the 'engineers' (which will be park mechanics and electricians, not qualified engineers) are still just people too, and people make mistakes. A good control system doesn't allow death and injury because of one human mistake.

 

You only get a ghost car if a sensor is flagged when there is no train, usually from a worker or something like that. Rarely in operation mode. Mack use a system as I have described and it works well, you do get more faults, but uptime shouldn't be prioritised over guest safety.

 

I've seen other ride issues stem from lack of advanced systems in other Gurst ride control systems, perhaps they will be looking to improve how they do things now.

[DBru]

Giving bonuses for ride uptime is one of the more ridiculous things I've heard of at a park, and it's not surprising that it led to the engineers being pressured to giving the ride the green light.

 

Does any other park do this?

 

Yep. It does sound ridiculous...but it keeps maintenance from sitting around and eating extra ham sandwiches/flirting with cute ride ops when there are rides to fix.

 

I know that Millennium Force does not have any kind of "block has been occupied too long" fault. But it is strange that many coasters allow operators/maintenance to clear blocks single-handedly from the control booth. I believe all Arrow coasters require simultaneous action from controls and on-location to clear a block.

[knaiwear]

To me it shows massive flaws in the rides control system and I'm surprised that this was not detailed more in the findings.

 

Are you a control system expert? Because, as the article states:

 

"A Health and Safety Executive (HSE) investigation found no fault with the track, the cars, or the control system that keeps the cars apart from each other when the ride is running."

 

The investigation concluded that the system did its job and the humans did not. I'm inclined to believe that they checked everything out and the system did not, in fact, have flaws - let alone "massive" ones.

[dcxs]

The errors of the technicians is mind-boggling to me. Even if you are stressed you should triple check when making such potentially dangerous/life threatening decisions as ignoring block warning is. I don't understand how they can still be employed, they don't seem to know what they are doing. But sure, routines and employee education may be very lacking also.

[djrappa]

 

Are you a control system expert? Because, as the article states:

 

"A Health and Safety Executive (HSE) investigation found no fault with the track, the cars, or the control system that keeps the cars apart from each other when the ride is running."

 

The investigation concluded that the system did its job and the humans did not. I'm inclined to believe that they checked everything out and the system did not, in fact, have flaws - let alone "massive" ones.

 

I'm not going to throw the word 'Expert' out there, but I would like to think I certainly have an understanding at a higher level than most (enthusiasts included) of complex control systems. I also work in that field, albeit not on coasters specifically.

 

I believe the control system in question on Smiler to be 'adequate' in that it isn't faulty, but I do believe it to be flawed in the seemingly limited faults that were generated if the report is accurate, which I would assume it to be.

It certainly relies on the humans not to make mistakes or assumptions, rather than give them clear information.

 

Sort of like how their Sky Roller control system has not faults, as long as the Op checks all the seats are upright before lowering at the end of the cycle. The control system itself doesn't check this, which I why I have seen one come done and crush a sideways seat. Just because it's not faulty doesn't mean it isn't flawed.

 

 

I think everyone should note that the report also doesn't blame the engineers, as people seem to be jumping on. It clearly says it was the systems the park had in place that let them down. Let's not throw the technical services guys under the bus here.

[KarlaKoaster]

Coming out of retirement to clarify a couple of points, sorry if I've misunderstood anything.

 

Sort of like how their Sky Roller control system has not faults, as long as the Op checks all the seats are upright before lowering at the end of the cycle. The control system itself doesn't check this...

When you say 'their', do you mean Gerstlauer? Because Smiler uses an Alan Bradley ride control system which is the same as many coasters out there including B&M. Not sure about their Sky Rollers, but it's probably not a fair comparison.

 

All coasters at Disney run this way. Each block has a time limit, and if it is exceeded, the alarm sounds and the ride will e-stop all on its own. AND THEN, it requires you to actually walk out to the area where the fault occurred, and clear the system from there. So you'd have to actually see the area before releasing a train.

 

I believe all Arrow coasters require simultaneous action from controls and on-location to clear a block.

 

It's the same on Smiler.

[knaiwear]

I believe the control system in question on Smiler to be 'adequate' in that it isn't faulty, but I do believe it to be flawed in the seemingly limited faults that were generated if the report is accurate, which I would assume it to be.

 

Appreciate your insight. However I will still default to the notion that if you were not involved in the investigation then you are not in a position where you can say that it has massive flaws. Or even ANY flaws that are relevant to the accident. I am confident that the investigation would have noted that if it was the case.

 

I have only directly worked on one roller coaster's control system, so I am also not an expert. On that ride under normal operation, the clearing of blocks manually is not possible without a person out on the block pressing a button. However, in maintenance mode, you can do whatever you want as a solo operator, bypassing almost all restrictions. There's a valid need for this as maintenance often needs to do something, like move a train, that doesn't go through the normal motions of the ride. HOWEVER - you should never ever run in maintenance mode with people on trains. That's a safety standard that I thought was international. If you need to run it manually, you get everyone out. Period.

 

It appears that this policy/procedure didn't exist on Smiler (among others) and that's why the park is at fault instead of the control system.

[Dar]

It appears that this policy/procedure didn't exist on Smiler (among others) and that's why the park is at fault instead of the control system.

 

Just to pick up on this, not attacking you directly, but the report says the ride was put into "Evacuation mode", not maintenance mode, when the crash happened. Evac mode moves all the train back to the station, starting with the furthest away but still obeys other block rules

[djrappa]

Allen Bradley is a manufacturer of process control equipment for industry.

They supply nothing more than bare components and 'empty' PLCs.

 

Each manufacturer creates their own software and systems from that so two rides having an AB control system have nothing more in common than say two movies using an Arri camera for filming.

[knaiwear]

Just to pick up on this, not attacking you directly, but the report says the ride was put into "Evacuation mode", not maintenance mode, when the crash happened. Evac mode moves all the train back to the station, starting with the furthest away but still obeys other block rules

 

Good catch! My ride did not have "evacuation mode" so I didn't piece that together in my head. Again I am not an expert

 

The report specifically commented that the control panel showed the location of all of the trains. Panels don't show exactly where they are on the track, because there aren't sensors everywhere. Maintenance would have seen five indicators but because they believed only four trains were on the track, the fifth one was presumed to be a "ghost" that was manually cleared at the base of the lift.

 

This reminds me of how California Screamin's control booth has signs up indicating which trains are running - a manual solution to help keep everyone abreast of exactly what's going on.

[TheoB]

Just to pick up on this, not attacking you directly, but the report says the ride was put into "Evacuation mode", not maintenance mode, when the crash happened. Evac mode moves all the train back to the station, starting with the furthest away but still obeys other block rules

 

Good catch! My ride did not have "evacuation mode" so I didn't piece that together in my head. Again I am not an expert

 

The report specifically commented that the control panel showed the location of all of the trains. Panels don't show exactly where they are on the track, because there aren't sensors everywhere. Maintenance would have seen five indicators but because they believed only four trains were on the track, the fifth one was presumed to be a "ghost" that was manually cleared at the base of the lift.

 

This reminds me of how California Screamin's control booth has signs up indicating which trains are running - a manual solution to help keep everyone abreast of exactly what's going on.

 

The Smiler along with all the other 3+ train coasters (as far as I know) have this at Merlin parks, eg Sequoia Adventure and Saw. I think the two/three car train rides also have this.

[Henry M]

Just sharing the shocking footage of the train being released to its doom. It actually sends a shiver down my spine how something like this could happen.

 

http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/new-alton-towers-smiler-rollercoaster-crash-video-shows-full-horror-of-carriages-collision/story-29738567-detail/story.html

[johnnyknottsville]

Video shows absolutely nothing but rubbish whom ever recorded it should have their hands cut off!!! total was of time

[Dar]

Better to see the actual CCTV of the train being released and colliding with the stationary car? And the 20 seconds that the empty car spent stuck at the top of the batwing?

 

[gerstlaueringvar]

Just sharing the shocking footage of the train being released to its doom. It actually sends a shiver down my spine how something like this could happen.

 

http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/new-alton-towers-smiler-rollercoaster-crash-video-shows-full-horror-of-carriages-collision/story-29738567-detail/story.html

Holy crap 1:25!

[johnnyknottsville]

Better to see the actual CCTV of the train being released and colliding with the stationary car? And the 20 seconds that the empty car spent stuck at the top of the batwing?

 

 

Thanks for posting this one, this is the video to watch to see what actually happens and not some park goers crappy cellphone footage that's shaky asf and pointed at the ground the majority of the time.

 

This was caught on CCTV what the Ride operators can't see these screens or where they just not paying attention???

[djrappa]

Regardless of my thoughts on the control system the fact that NO staff realised a car had valleyed is ultimately the major flaw in Altons procedures as highlighted in the report.

No park should ever send empties without confirming they return to the station BEFORE admitting guests.

[Paperface]

Regardless of my thoughts on the control system the fact that NO staff realised a car had valleyed is ultimately the major flaw in Altons procedures as highlighted in the report.

No park should ever send empties without confirming they return to the station BEFORE admitting guests.

 

Unfortunately, the way Merlin run things this was bound to happen. Similar situations have arisen before (spinball etc) but luckily nobody was hurt those times. Paying staff a bonus based on thru-put is asking for trouble and cut corners.

[TheoB]

Regardless of my thoughts on the control system the fact that NO staff realised a car had valleyed is ultimately the major flaw in Altons procedures as highlighted in the report.

No park should ever send empties without confirming they return to the station BEFORE admitting guests.

 

Unfortunately, the way Merlin run things this was bound to happen. Similar situations have arisen before (spinball etc) but luckily nobody was hurt those times. Paying staff a bonus based on thru-put is asking for trouble and cut corners.

 

I am quite interested what happen on Spinball, if it is this:

 

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3146958/Riders-left-hanging-Alton-Towers-rollercoaster-gets-stuck-mid-ride.html

 

Then that definitely isn't an accident, its two vehicles colliding at low speeds in the brake run. This is not even close to what happened on the Smiler so saying its similar is just dumb and uninformed.

[sam345]

What I hate is how the media love to demonise Alton Towers as if their rides aren't safe.... Constantly exaggerating mishaps (excluding June 2015) as if they are life threatening. No! They just have some shite staffing that needs sorting out.

 

Example of exaggeration- http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/512350/Riders-stuck-Alton-Towers-rollercoaster-virtual-reality-Galactica-Smiler

[sam345]

Does anyone know if the Smiler face has been taken of ALL of the carriages since the crash? Or is it just the one in this picture? Just looks a bit bare without that grinning face on the front.

[RyanTPM]

^That's an old picture, they've now been added back to all the trains.

[sam345]

^That's an old picture, they've now been added back to all the trains.

 

Ok, thanks