Evolution or Creationism

[halation]

I firmly believe in creationism.

 

This past year (in October of '06) my Grandfather suffered a heart attack. He lives in a very remote area of Maine, just 25 minutes from Canada's border. He was transported to a hospital in Virginia. During this time, he was revived twice, so he has actually died. His brain was without oxygen for well over 5 minutes. He should have suffered a massive loss in mental abilities.

 

I know for a fact that I as well as many other members of my family prayed for him in church that Sunday. Relatives from all over my family will attest that they prayed.

 

My grandfather had absolutely no trouble. As my mother, aunt, and grandmother were about to sign papers to pull the plug, he started talking to one of the nurses. He even recounted a story about how he was en route to heaven, and was told it wasn't his time so he returned to earth.

 

The question was if you believe in creationism or evolution.

 

did you read the first sentence?

 

aaaand the story was a major reason I believe in creationism. No need for hostility.

 

I was referring to the rest of it..does this prove that creationism, as stated in the bible, is true? I don't see the connection. I don't know who you think is being hostile, there are just many people who don't agree with you, that is all.

[GeorgiaDawg278]

^my apologies. I misunderstood what you were saying.

 

Anyway, the rest of the story is what helps my faith in creationism.

[coasterdude5]

I believe in both, I believe God created, and what he created evolved over time. I'm not sure what that would fit, though.

[BiCoastal Kid]

Part of the reason that some people don't take everything in the Bible as the literal truth is because of the language it was written in. The Bible is almost 2000 years old now, and language has developed rapidly since then. If you asked someone 50 years ago what an MP3 was, they'd have no clue. The same can be said of the language used in the Bible. It had to be written in a language that could be understood not only by those writing it, but also those reading it 2000 years later. It's also part of the reason that translation is so hard. As language evolved, there became new meanings for different words, and different meanings for the same word. It becomes complicated. This is probably my biggest beef with those who believe in a completely literal translation of the Bible... and carefully neglect the words "Judge not lest ye be judged". They use it to point fingers when the main goal of being a Christian is to 'love the sinner, hate the sin'.

 

Anyhew, yeah. That's why we can believe in both creation and evolution.

 

I agree. I don't know of many people who speak Hebrew or Greek.

 

In fact, the translation of the Bible could be far off or simply false. Monks, who did most of the copying of manuscripts before the printing press, or up until somewhere around the mid 1400's, were known to have been instructed to change or add into a story parts of their "leader's", for lack of a better terms, beliefs. If they did it to many of stories from pre-Roman England, such as Beowulf, it wouldn't be a huge jump to say that thye could have been instructed to alter parts of the Bible.

 

I know that sounds very "conspiracy theory," but it's just something to think about.

 

Another thing, if you think about it, the Bible has only been available in popular vernaculars for a little less than 500 years, so compared to some other religions and their periods of popular understanding, Christianity is actually kind of a young religion.

[America Sings Freak]

I believe in evolution, but I also believe in some thoughts of creationism.

[crispy]

Here's another one:

 

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

 

Please don't use old testament law, in Christianity, Christ came to fufill the law, and therfore Christians are no longer bound to obey old testament law, but to obey Christ teachings

 

not to say we do not use things from the old testament to guide our faith, but we are not required to follow them, I can't remember the last time I sacrafice a young goat to pay pennace for my sins

 

The fact that people make interpetations on a vague passage of scripture should not confuse anyone, the bible is not really specific about HOW God created the earth, just that he did, and although it says it took 7 days, the bible also hints that time means nothing to God.

 

I could quote off a bunch of scriptures, but I won't. The fact remains that faith is a very personal thing, and while some members like Shepp seem to truely dislike christianity, I have met some really amazing people who really do good for thier communities in the framework of organized religion.

 

Well this of course is off subject, but many "Christians" use the old testament to condemn homosexuals.

 

Back to that old picking and chosing to fit an agenda.

 

not really, read Romans 1:18-32

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201:18-32;&version=51;

 

 

This is off topic, so I will not post the actual scriptures, if your so inclined go read it yourself, and this is no endorsment on the the way some Christian groups treat homosexuals, just replying to halation

[Masked_Maverick]

All I am going to say is God loves the sinner but hates the sin.

[halation]

Here's another one:

 

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

 

Please don't use old testament law, in Christianity, Christ came to fufill the law, and therfore Christians are no longer bound to obey old testament law, but to obey Christ teachings

 

not to say we do not use things from the old testament to guide our faith, but we are not required to follow them, I can't remember the last time I sacrafice a young goat to pay pennace for my sins

 

 

 

The fact that people make interpetations on a vague passage of scripture should not confuse anyone, the bible is not really specific about HOW God created the earth, just that he did, and although it says it took 7 days, the bible also hints that time means nothing to God.

 

I could quote off a bunch of scriptures, but I won't. The fact remains that faith is a very personal thing, and while some members like Shepp seem to truely dislike christianity, I have met some really amazing people who really do good for thier communities in the framework of organized religion.

 

Well this of course is off subject, but many "Christians" use the old testament to condemn homosexuals.

 

Back to that old picking and chosing to fit an agenda.

 

not really, read Romans 1:18-32

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201:18-32;&version=51;

 

 

This is off topic, so I will not post the actual scriptures, if your so inclined go read it yourself, and this is no endorsment on the the way some Christian groups treat homosexuals, just replying to halation

 

My point was that some people will pick something like the bible saying homosexuality is wrong and believe that, and then ignore other ridiculous things like the bible saying eating shellfish is wrong or to kill your children if they disrespect you.

 

It IS picking and chosing..unless those who condemn homosexuals, don't eat shellfish, and have killed their children for disrespecting them, also.

[Wes]

Well, it took a week, but now the topic has veered off of "Evolution vs. Creationism" and is now about the merits of the bible. We're venturing into bad territory now.

 

It was good while it lasted. Either get back to the actual discussion topic, or El Locko will be coming for this thread.

[FlyingScooter]

The differences between people will always keep threads like this interesting.

 

Last weekend, my girlfriend and her son went to the Creation Museum in KY. They said it was great.

 

Why didn't I go? Easy: there's no point to going on a four to five hour drive just to debate points from people that will not change their opinions.

 

Had i gone to that museum, i would've disagreed with a lot of it. Doesn't mean I'm not a Christian. There's just certain parts of both Creationism and Evolution that, to me, make no sense.

[Vekoma Fan Boy]

I believe that God created the Earth, but I alos believe that things evolved over time.

 

Now see, that is the way I veiw it. BUT, I also believe that god created all the changes over the years, I just don't see "nature" having a bunch of genes sit down at an oval conference table with spreadsheets of what will and will not be effective. It makes no sense to me. I beleive god said okay you llok like this and you act like this, (things change) okay, now look like this and act like this.

[BiCoastal Kid]

Romans 1:32

 

They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

 

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

 

 

Which of these am I going by? Do these sinners really encourage others to do so, do they simply approve of the actions and partake in them when made possible, or do they all stick together to do what they do?

 

That's a pretty hefty difference in my opinion when trying to determine what it means.

 

Of course, this rendition of 1:28-32 from "The Message" is my favorite.

 

 

Since they didn't bother to acknowledge God, God quit bothering them and let them run loose. And then all hell broke loose: rampant evil, grabbing and grasping, vicious backstabbing. They made life hell on earth with their envy, wanton killing, bickering, and cheating. Look at them: mean-spirited, venomous, fork-tongued God-bashers. Bullies, swaggerers, insufferable windbags! They keep inventing new ways of wrecking lives. They ditch their parents when they get in the way. Stupid, slimy, cruel, cold-blooded. And it's not as if they don't know better. They know perfectly well they're spitting in God's face. And they don't care—worse, they hand out prizes to those who do the worst things best!

 

Now, I've never been given a prize for being gay. This must be the version that the Phelps family follows since (this directed at those specific radical groups such as Westboro Baptist, and not respectable Christians) they obviously don't have a damn clue.

 

Could you point me to the part in the Bible where it says to persecute homosexuals? I'd love to see the different ways that one's worded. "The Message" version should be especially fun. As it stands, that part doesn't tell Christians they they are the ones to put sinners to death, just that sinners deserve death.

[halation]

This is funny:

 

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

[crispy]

Romans 1:32

 

They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

 

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

 

 

Which of these am I going by? Do these sinners really encourage others to do so, do they simply approve of the actions and partake in them when made possible, or do they all stick together to do what they do?

 

That's a pretty hefty difference in my opinion when trying to determine what it means.

 

Of course, this rendition of 1:28-32 from "The Message" is my favorite.

 

 

Since they didn't bother to acknowledge God, God quit bothering them and let them run loose. And then all hell broke loose: rampant evil, grabbing and grasping, vicious backstabbing. They made life hell on earth with their envy, wanton killing, bickering, and cheating. Look at them: mean-spirited, venomous, fork-tongued God-bashers. Bullies, swaggerers, insufferable windbags! They keep inventing new ways of wrecking lives. They ditch their parents when they get in the way. Stupid, slimy, cruel, cold-blooded. And it's not as if they don't know better. They know perfectly well they're spitting in God's face. And they don't care—worse, they hand out prizes to those who do the worst things best!

 

Now, I've never been given a prize for being gay. This must be the version that the Phelps family follows since (this directed at those specific radical groups such as Westboro Baptist, and not respectable Christians) they obviously don't have a damn clue.

 

Could you point me to the part in the Bible where it says to persecute homosexuals? I'd love to see the different ways that one's worded. "The Message" version should be especially fun. As it stands, that part doesn't tell Christians they they are the ones to put sinners to death, just that sinners deserve death.

 

A prize for being gay, lmao, that was good

 

I have to agree with Wes though, this really needs to stay on topic, I am very pleased with how adult everyone has been regarding creationism and evolution, so lets keep this thread open and discuss this issue with the same maturity we have been, if anyone wants to discuss the merits of the bible, or have any other questions, you can PM me, I would be glad to give you my OPINIONS

 

I'll end with this

 

Galatians 5:14 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

 

 

14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

[GURZU]

This video explain very well the "World Beginner" by Peter Griffin

 

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=ms3MIcg5MpU

[DATman]

I can believe in both creationism and evolution because even if God simply created the initial cells of life, he still created all life.

[BiCoastal Kid]

I'll end with this

 

Galatians 5:14 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

 

 

14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

 

Applauds.

[GURZU]

The human beings we will never know the origin of the life...

[jten11]

I believe in evolution(not both), and that's all I need to say.

[coasters 4 me]

I believe in creationism. I cant see how animals can evolve and just develop things without them having the characteristics for them.

 

Its like animals saying "Hmmm....I want to have a longer beak", but they just don't get it.

 

I just think that every animal was made. Some were not successful and got wiped out by other animals.

 

Interesting, we have just finished learning about different types of evolution and all in Biology.

[nyanko]

I believe in creationism. I cant see how animals can evolve and just develop things without them having the characteristics for them.

 

Its like animals saying "Hmmm....I want to have a longer beak", but they just don't get it.

 

I just think that every animal was made. Some were not successful and got wiped out by other animals.

 

Interesting, we have just finished learning about different types of evolution and all in Biology.

 

I'm sorry but what? It has been proven many times over that DNA mutates and this causes things to evolve. You can see it in a few generations of bacteria becoming resistant to antibiotics.

 

Your biology teacher did the worst job ever in teaching you.

[nyanko]

Now that I've had a chance to read the whole thread I want to add my thoughts. Keep in mind that this is coming from an agnostic person who is PhD-bound (UC Davis next year woo) in Genetics, so my opinions are quite focused on one direction and that is in the scientific merit and grounding of both the concepts of macroevolution and microevolution.

 

First of all I don't know why there was an attempt at squelching active discussion by the moderators. Discussion is what keeps content fresh and engaging, rather than a forum where people just post their favorite whatever and don't read anybody else's posts except to circlejerk with moderators and administrators. That gets stagnant and boring after a very short time. Yeah, if people start flaming and trolling that's one thing and bringing the banhammer down on someone like that is totally warranted, but to actively discourage discussion just because somebody might become offended seems rather counterintuitive to the enjoyment of any given topic.

 

Anyway that's a digression. Many of you who believe in what basically amounts to the tenets of "Intelligent Design" are kind of wishy-washy. I don't really understand how you can believe that something or other was placed on this earth and then required any evolving to make it any better than it already was. If your God is omnipotent and omniscient, wouldn't He have had the foresight to make the animal perfect as it were? Why would it need any fine-tuning? And where do we stop with the phylogenetic tree and say "Welp, this is one of those that was 'created' at the beginning, this particular branch's roots are here" because in my studies of evolutionary biology and phylogenetics I have not seen any sort of point like that, just convincing evidence that the tree keeps going down to a more cohesive root, as a "tree" should. I guess my point is that if you are going to believe in creationism, you should believe in it as it is written in the Bible, not in some wishy-washy moderate form.

 

I work with Drosophila melanogaster, the fruit fly, in my studies and it's been shown that likely 75% of human genes have a very close/direct analog in the fruit fly. Even single celled eukaryotes like Saccharomyces cerevisiae are used in studies to better understand human genetics. How could this happen if we did not share some kind of ancestor? What would be the reasoning for this in God's eyes?

 

As far as microevolution goes, I don't see how it's even debatable. As stated in my post above, we can actually observe this in a colony of bacteria that becomes resistant to a given antibiotic in culture given enough generations or in the fruit flies I work with developing different characteristics given mutagenic agents or even just in a number of generations given a shift in living conditions. The ones most suited for survival in the given substrate thrive, while those who may not be as suited fail to thrive and do not reproduce as much. The process of evolution is not outcome-driven as the previous poster's "oh, I want a longer beak so I will make it so!" seems to suggest. To believe so would be silly as there is nothing in our DNA that reads in from the outside environment and makes a conscious decision to make so-and-so changes. It's just that those birds that are naturally born with longer beaks will outcompete those with shorter beaks for the best food sources and thus for the breeding rights.

 

Sorry this ended up being so long-winded. Obviously this is a topic near and dear to me. I welcome active debate with my post as long as it isn't just mudslinging!

[shesaidboom]

^We also share 50% of our genes with bananas. I agree with pretty much everything you said.

[speedracer]

^ me too, very intelligent and well informed response.

[BiCoastal Kid]

I work with Drosophila melanogaster, the fruit fly, in my studies and it's been shown that likely 75% of human genes have a very close/direct analog in the fruit fly. Even single celled eukaryotes like Saccharomyces cerevisiae are used in studies to better understand human genetics. How could this happen if we did not share some kind of ancestor?

 

A worker at Medical College of Georgia came and spoke to my AP Biology class last semester and talked to us about their studies with fruit flies, too. They're very common in genetic research because of their fast reproduction, which I cannot think of the word right now. It all seems very interesting, but I'd rather read about it than do it. More power to you.

 

^We also share 50% of our genes with bananas. I agree with pretty much everything you said.

 

Your avatar made this post just that much better.