Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

[johnnyknottsville]

by ajfelice

You can give enthusiasts credit to some degree for being idea generators. Your Dick Kinzel example is correct, and I would add Holiday World famously did this with The Legend and The Voyage. However, the bigger picture always has and always will be that parks are infinitely most worried how the general public will respond to a roller coaster or any attraction in the park. Thank enthusiasts for their ideas for some roller coaster projects out there, but in the end parks will put the needs of the general public first and foremost with enthusiast opinions being more of a bonus or afterthought.

I love how it's coming straight from the horse's mouth that enthusiast sites like this and enthusiast idea's, reviews and suggestions are of value and taken into precedence during the creation of a park's major new thrill coaster. Then someone comes along that thinks they know more and says no it's the GP they're concerned with and everything else is an after thought because I said so. Like lol I guess Dick Kinzel, the man responsible for helping to create a World renowned Coaster Superpark doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. I could see if you were saying Parks focused on the needs of the GP far as Food quality and service, Hospitality and cleanliness, Family/kiddy rides and or entertainment, Not saying Enthusiast aren't concerned with those things.

 

Yet to say they are targeting and catering to the needs of the GP over the enthusiast community when building 200 and 300+ foot coasters, with insane speeds, crazy forces neg/or pos and crazy amounts of inversions is absolutely ludicrous. Especially when the majority of the GP you're talking about acts like Space Mountain is as intense as Millennium Force, yet these are the people you claiming they're thinking of or catering to when a park adds a ride like X2 That's like saying Ford announced a newly designed Mustang muscle car, yet instead of getting input, suggestions and idea's from Mustang/Car/and or race enthusiast we're going to cater to Betty Myers Soccer Mom and whatever the diehards think will be an afterthought...Then release a 4 cyl miniwagon with a unicorn emblem wearing the Mustang name claiming this is a muscle miniwagon for the GP:lmao:

Edited January 17, 2016 by johnnyknottsville

[blakelemay23]

To re assure enthusiasts that Parks read enthusiasts forums, heres this:

 

"Ghost Rider opened on Dec. 8, 1998, and Falfas told the media that it immediately boosted park attendance by double digits. Dick (Kinzel) said he knew he had a winner when coaster --->enthusiasts started chatting about it on the internet<---"

[blakelemay23]

by ajfelice

You can give enthusiasts credit to some degree for being idea generators. Your Dick Kinzel example is correct, and I would add Holiday World famously did this with The Legend and The Voyage. However, the bigger picture always has and always will be that parks are infinitely most worried how the general public will respond to a roller coaster or any attraction in the park. Thank enthusiasts for their ideas for some roller coaster projects out there, but in the end parks will put the needs of the general public first and foremost with enthusiast opinions being more of a bonus or afterthought.

I love how it's coming straight from the horse's mouth that enthusiast sites like this and enthusiast idea's, reviews and suggestions are of value and taken into precedence during the creation of a park's major new thrill coaster. Then someone comes along that thinks they know more and says no it's the GP they're concerned with and everything else is an after thought because I said so. Like lol I guess Dick Kinzel, the man responsible for helping to create a World renowned Coaster Superpark doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. I could see if you were saying Parks focused on the needs of the GP far as Food quality and service, Hospitality and cleanliness, Family/kiddy rides and or entertainment, Not saying Enthusiast aren't concerned with those things.

 

Yet to say they are targeting and catering to the needs of the GP over the enthusiast community when building 200 and 300+ foot coasters, with insane speeds, crazy forces neg/or pos and crazy amounts of inversions is absolutely ludicrous. Especially when the majority of the GP you're talking about acts like Space Mountain is as intense as Millennium Force, yet these are the people you claiming they're thinking of or catering to when a park adds a ride like X2 That's like saying Ford announced a newly designed Mustang muscle car, yet instead of getting input, suggestions and idea's from Mustang/Car/and or race enthusiast we're going to cater to Betty Myers Soccer Mom and whatever the diehards think will be an afterthought...Then release a 4 cyl miniwagon with a unicorn emblem wearing the Mustang name claiming this is a muscle miniwagon for the GP:lmao:

You are thinking about this way too hard and i guess that is my fault for not elaborating. Read the book yourself and you will see that when he went to the drawing board he looked to enthusiasts.. that has nothing to do with the other operations of the park, I meant the process of bringing an attraction to life and nothing else.

[RCF]

It's happening so often now, (even outside of Intamin,) you think parks would have maybe caught on and plan accordingly in construction, maybe erect the entire coaster earlier, or give the engineers enough time to work everything out and make sure it all can work properly before manufacturing.

 

S&S had a good idea when they built a prototype for their Free Spin coasters to make sure they would work properly. I haven't heard of any mechanical issues with Batman: The Ride at SFFT so far. Maybe other manufacturers should be doing that more often?

 

I'm still trying to gather what this whole post is trying to say, but with regards to this section specifically, I think it's funny. Both El Loco at Adventuredome and Batman at SFFT broke down multiple times during the days I was there. Also you talk about how rides are hurting people... I found Batman to have the most uncomfortable coaster restraints and trains I've ever ridden. [emoji38]

 

Never made mention of El Loco as I know that coaster hasn't been reliable, and I haven't heard of any mechanical issues with Batman. Since you said there actually has been some then I was mistaken.

 

In regards to making sense of my post, I was talking about how back then, making unique rides happened more often because of two reasons:

1.Some enthusiast-made coasters nowadays have been found to be too extreme and hurt people, like Skyrush and Intimidator 305.

2. Coasters back then didn't have as much down time as there is now for new and unique rides, and maybe engineers and parks should catch on and change how new rides come to reality through the engineering and construction phases.

 

 

My main point I've been trying to make, and final on this thread for now, is that Cedar Point has held up this standard that has not been met by their latest coaster additions. If they want to be considered one of the leading parks in the industry, they need to add something else than the B&M catalog.

[Superbatboy]

That's like saying Ford announced a newly designed Mustang muscle car, yet instead of getting input, suggestions and idea's from Mustang/Car/and or race enthusiast we're going to cater to Betty Myers Soccer Mom and whatever the diehards think will be an afterthought...Then release a 4 cyl miniwagon with a unicorn emblem wearing the Mustang name claiming this is a muscle miniwagon for the GP:lmao:

Oh my

[johnnyknottsville]

You are thinking about this way too hard and i guess that is my fault for not elaborating. Read the book yourself and you will see that when he went to the drawing board he looked to enthusiasts.. that has nothing to do with the other operations of the park, I meant the process of bringing an attraction to life and nothing else.

 

Umm that's pretty much what I was saying

[ZeroGravity55]

[coasterbill]

^ Yeah I'm out of here. This has just turned into a bunch of enthusiasts trying to convince themselves that their opinion is more important than the opinions of the other guests that go to the park.

 

All they care about is getting a return on investment, they want a ride that increases revenue, attendance and as a result share price. They don't care about living up to the rides in enthusiasts wet dreams or if you think a ride on the other side of the country is better than Millennium Force. If they care so much they'd be building RMC's and Intamins but oh look, B&M after B&M. The year they built Gatekeeper enthusiasts did nothing but bitch. "The restraints hurt", "It's forceless" and guess what. Attendance went up FIVE PERCENT (which is incredible growth for a well established regional park in a single season) because the world doesn't revolve around coaster enthusiasts. You're not special.

 

Keep complaining, the rest of us will enjoy the ride.

Edited January 17, 2016 by coasterbill

[RaceBoarder]

It's cold out there today...

 

Won't somebody think of the boat!?!?!?!?!?

[DorneyKid14]

I'm not returning to this thread until the boat returns to the park.

 

 

 

I'll be back before then

[SbSteveZ]

I never thought I'd see the day where the Darien Lake thread is less insane than the Cedar Point thread. Nice job guys!

[johnnyknottsville]

^ Yeah I'm out of here. This has just turned into a bunch of enthusiasts trying to convince themselves that their opinion is more important than the opinions of the other guests that go to the park.

 

All they care about is getting a return on investment, they want a ride that increases revenue, attendance and as a result share price. They don't care about living up to the rides in enthusiasts wet dreams or if you think a ride on the other side of the country is better than Millennium Force. If they care so much they'd be building RMC's and Intamins but oh look, B&M after B&M. The year they built Gatekeeper enthusiasts did nothing but bitch. "The restraints hurt", "It's forceless" and guess what. Attendance went up FIVE PERCENT (which is incredible growth for a well established regional park in a single season) because the world doesn't revolve around coaster enthusiasts. You're not special.

 

Keep complaining, the rest of us will enjoy the ride.

 

OMG I see we have another one using those same dirty fingers he plays with himself with, standing on his lotion bottle like a soap box to type up an argument that's makes no sense. Not once did anyone say anything revolved around Coaster Enthusiast period!!! Nor did anyone say the other guest of the park opinions didn't matter. Stevie Wonder can even see how a business is run and to be a profitable one you have to get your ROI, I really don't know who the hell your trying to educate on something or talk down too with your petty arguments. For one I'm old as effing black pepper this isn't my first got da&m rodeo.

 

What I just don't understand what's so dam hard to accept that these parks are not building these insane coasters specifically for the GP. If that was the case why isn't Disney building B&Ms, Hypers and Gigas???. I guess Coaster Enthusiast don't have families and friends that are GP/thrill seekers that tag along on trips that help boost ROI, no that's just impossible. I don't see what's so preposterous it being stated that Coaster Enthusiast sites like TPR, enthusiast reviews, idea's or suggestions does play a part in these parks coaster making decisions regardless how small.

 

Attendance goes up every time CP installs a new coaster since it's usually some type of record breaker and or something never seen/done before GateKeeper was all of those and had a very wide appeal with the GP,Now compared to the appeal the majority of the GP will have for dropping 223 feet vertical face down, I'm sure the numbers will reveal who turned out the most to ride it and I doubt they'll show it was the GP flocking to ride it. Also members of the GP is not going to hop on a plane, spend thousands of dollars for a weekend trip for the opening of Gatekeeper or Valrvn!!! Everyone I knew that is a Non-enthusiast GP thought I was absolutely effing insane for doing.

 

So first it's we don't care about the opinions of other guest in the park, now it's we're complaining b/c some of us state our opinion that we're not just foaming at the mouths over Valravn sounds to me like the opinion your fools want to hear is your own

 

Anyways Back to CP and Valravn even though I have MY opinon that it's a Giant cookie cutter I am enthusiast enough to admit it is Gorgeous and it's snowing on the web cam click on it and chill TF out

[coasterbill]

I'd respond but all that will do is steer this conversation further and further off the rails and I honestly don't even know what you're yelling about over there. You just keep on keepin on.

[djcoastermark]

Wow, with the snow storm going on, I hope the boat makes it back ok.

[coasterbill]

The lake is already starting to freeze up (though it's impossible to see that now with all the snow), it's not looking good.

[talon2017]

Ok, I am currently reading Dick Kinzel's biography right now so i want to share a couple of things.

 

First off, i would like to talk about the opinion some people have that nerdy enthusiasts opinions don't matter and that parks are more worried about how the general public responds to coasters. Actually, nerdy enthusiasts and clubs alike get most of the consideration over the GP--probably because we know what the hell we are talking about.

 

Parks do read forums like this daily, and they take what we say into consideration greatly and it benefits.

 

Heres a quote by Tim O'Brien about Magnum XL-200

 

"Coaster fans' love affair with Dick (Kinzel) began with the appearence of Magnum XL-200 in 1989. They loved-him because he listened to him and was able to give them what they wanted. Journalist Paul Ruben, the North American editor of British-based Park World magazine recalls Dick telling him that he credits members of the American Coaster Enthusiasts (ACE) with the idea to build Magnum. "He saw video clips of Bandit, a 167 foot tall coaster that had just opened in Japan. An ACE member was interviewed and he raved about the ride. He said it had no corkscrews or helixes in it, and it didn't go upside down. It was just a fast, smooth ride--one of the best coasters he had ever ridden."

Dick subsequently asked some North American ACE members if the public would accept a coaster that went high and fast and had a lot of thrills, alot of speed and bumps, alot of camelbacks, but didn't offer any 360 defree loops or other inversions. The ACE members agreed a coaster like that would go over quite well in the U.S. That was all the research Dick needed."

 

I think CP still cherishes this community, and I think that is why we finally saw a floorless conversion of Mantis. I also think fans will het what they want concerning Mean Streak.

 

Second, a funny moment a week before Magnum's opening.

 

"It was a early Saturday morning, April 29, 1989, a week before the Magnum XL-200 was to open and the trains still had not made an entire circuit. Dick walked up to the ride platform just as Toomer was getting ready to release the first train to run a complete out and back. The group watched it run a succesful route and as it came back into the station, Toomer looked at Dick and said, "Okay hop on for the first ride." No sand bags, no second run. It was just Dick and a couple of the maintenance guys with Jack Falfas in the station at the controls.

The ride was fast and as the train went into thr last turn before heading into the station the trim breaks did not work. The ride held to the track, giving everyone a safe but scary ride. Dick was exuberant but later admitted that he had never been as scared on a coaster as he was going into that curve. The ride opened as scheduled the following weekend with less than a week's testing. "That would certaintly not be allowed now." Dick notes. Today, it takes weeks of testing and hundreds of circuits completed before anything other than sandbags can ride."

 

He also said he finally talked his co-workers to ride but told the operator to pause the ride at the top of the hill for ten seconds. When the ride paused he turned around and said "It's time to discuss management's bonus program." "I could only see fear in their eyes, and i remember Veit saying, in his British accent 'Kinzel, you bastard' as tbe train went over the top of the hill. No one ever forgot it"

I will continue to share things as i go.

 

clearly cedar fair hasn't looked at the worlds of fun, valleyfair, great america,or dorney forums.

[DorneyKid14]

Ok, I am currently reading Dick Kinzel's biography right now so i want to share a couple of things.

 

First off, i would like to talk about the opinion some people have that nerdy enthusiasts opinions don't matter and that parks are more worried about how the general public responds to coasters. Actually, nerdy enthusiasts and clubs alike get most of the consideration over the GP--probably because we know what the hell we are talking about.

 

Parks do read forums like this daily, and they take what we say into consideration greatly and it benefits.

 

Heres a quote by Tim O'Brien about Magnum XL-200

 

"Coaster fans' love affair with Dick (Kinzel) began with the appearence of Magnum XL-200 in 1989. They loved-him because he listened to him and was able to give them what they wanted. Journalist Paul Ruben, the North American editor of British-based Park World magazine recalls Dick telling him that he credits members of the American Coaster Enthusiasts (ACE) with the idea to build Magnum. "He saw video clips of Bandit, a 167 foot tall coaster that had just opened in Japan. An ACE member was interviewed and he raved about the ride. He said it had no corkscrews or helixes in it, and it didn't go upside down. It was just a fast, smooth ride--one of the best coasters he had ever ridden."

Dick subsequently asked some North American ACE members if the public would accept a coaster that went high and fast and had a lot of thrills, alot of speed and bumps, alot of camelbacks, but didn't offer any 360 defree loops or other inversions. The ACE members agreed a coaster like that would go over quite well in the U.S. That was all the research Dick needed."

 

I think CP still cherishes this community, and I think that is why we finally saw a floorless conversion of Mantis. I also think fans will het what they want concerning Mean Streak.

 

Second, a funny moment a week before Magnum's opening.

 

"It was a early Saturday morning, April 29, 1989, a week before the Magnum XL-200 was to open and the trains still had not made an entire circuit. Dick walked up to the ride platform just as Toomer was getting ready to release the first train to run a complete out and back. The group watched it run a succesful route and as it came back into the station, Toomer looked at Dick and said, "Okay hop on for the first ride." No sand bags, no second run. It was just Dick and a couple of the maintenance guys with Jack Falfas in the station at the controls.

The ride was fast and as the train went into thr last turn before heading into the station the trim breaks did not work. The ride held to the track, giving everyone a safe but scary ride. Dick was exuberant but later admitted that he had never been as scared on a coaster as he was going into that curve. The ride opened as scheduled the following weekend with less than a week's testing. "That would certaintly not be allowed now." Dick notes. Today, it takes weeks of testing and hundreds of circuits completed before anything other than sandbags can ride."

 

He also said he finally talked his co-workers to ride but told the operator to pause the ride at the top of the hill for ten seconds. When the ride paused he turned around and said "It's time to discuss management's bonus program." "I could only see fear in their eyes, and i remember Veit saying, in his British accent 'Kinzel, you bastard' as tbe train went over the top of the hill. No one ever forgot it"

I will continue to share things as i go.

 

clearly cedar fair hasn't looked at the worlds of fun, valleyfair, great america,or dorney forums.

 

 

 

#PrayForTheBoat

[blakelemay23]

Ok, I am currently reading Dick Kinzel's biography right now so i want to share a couple of things.

 

First off, i would like to talk about the opinion some people have that nerdy enthusiasts opinions don't matter and that parks are more worried about how the general public responds to coasters. Actually, nerdy enthusiasts and clubs alike get most of the consideration over the GP--probably because we know what the hell we are talking about.

 

Parks do read forums like this daily, and they take what we say into consideration greatly and it benefits.

 

Heres a quote by Tim O'Brien about Magnum XL-200

 

"Coaster fans' love affair with Dick (Kinzel) began with the appearence of Magnum XL-200 in 1989. They loved-him because he listened to him and was able to give them what they wanted. Journalist Paul Ruben, the North American editor of British-based Park World magazine recalls Dick telling him that he credits members of the American Coaster Enthusiasts (ACE) with the idea to build Magnum. "He saw video clips of Bandit, a 167 foot tall coaster that had just opened in Japan. An ACE member was interviewed and he raved about the ride. He said it had no corkscrews or helixes in it, and it didn't go upside down. It was just a fast, smooth ride--one of the best coasters he had ever ridden."

Dick subsequently asked some North American ACE members if the public would accept a coaster that went high and fast and had a lot of thrills, alot of speed and bumps, alot of camelbacks, but didn't offer any 360 defree loops or other inversions. The ACE members agreed a coaster like that would go over quite well in the U.S. That was all the research Dick needed."

 

I think CP still cherishes this community, and I think that is why we finally saw a floorless conversion of Mantis. I also think fans will het what they want concerning Mean Streak.

 

Second, a funny moment a week before Magnum's opening.

 

"It was a early Saturday morning, April 29, 1989, a week before the Magnum XL-200 was to open and the trains still had not made an entire circuit. Dick walked up to the ride platform just as Toomer was getting ready to release the first train to run a complete out and back. The group watched it run a succesful route and as it came back into the station, Toomer looked at Dick and said, "Okay hop on for the first ride." No sand bags, no second run. It was just Dick and a couple of the maintenance guys with Jack Falfas in the station at the controls.

The ride was fast and as the train went into thr last turn before heading into the station the trim breaks did not work. The ride held to the track, giving everyone a safe but scary ride. Dick was exuberant but later admitted that he had never been as scared on a coaster as he was going into that curve. The ride opened as scheduled the following weekend with less than a week's testing. "That would certaintly not be allowed now." Dick notes. Today, it takes weeks of testing and hundreds of circuits completed before anything other than sandbags can ride."

 

He also said he finally talked his co-workers to ride but told the operator to pause the ride at the top of the hill for ten seconds. When the ride paused he turned around and said "It's time to discuss management's bonus program." "I could only see fear in their eyes, and i remember Veit saying, in his British accent 'Kinzel, you bastard' as tbe train went over the top of the hill. No one ever forgot it"

I will continue to share things as i go.

 

clearly cedar fair hasn't looked at the worlds of fun, valleyfair, great america,or dorney forums.

Not true, Dick Kinzel stated in the book he had it set up to where Cedar Point would get a major attraction every two years and the smaller parks would get a "major attraction" every four years up until 2008 (market crash). I think people have a wrong idea of how this works, CP brings in way more revenue than any other CF park. CF isn't some mystical Santa that looks at whose been naughty and nice and passes out coasters to who they want. If people are not buying enough tickets, buying enough merchandise, and buying food, than you will have to wait for a coaster.

[TopThrillMom]

I know someone posted this already but...#BoatLivesMatter

[DorneyKid14]

^^ with the other parks in the company, it mainly about planning. Most parks have a 2-3 year plan, I believe that's what Dorneys is. They look at past years with attendance and try to project for the future. Dorney had record attendance this past summer, so if that conutines to grow, maybe cf will invest in Dorney.

 

Cp is the what brings in a lot of the revenue for the company. So of course they will invest more. Why would cf invest in a park like MA when it could take 10 years to see a return on investment.

[Philrad71]

I never thought I'd see the day where the Darien Lake thread is less insane than the Cedar Point thread. Nice job guys!

 

At least the Darien Lake thread is more or less just total nonsense...

 

 

Oh, wait.

[Samuel]

Although Gatekeeper's rollover drop is a slightly larger inversion, VR's hulking immelmann looks very impressive jutting out toward the midway. I've wondered if there would ever be a standard B&M multi-looper layout raised to hyper scale, but I can clearly see how much space that would demand in any park! Even if someone prefers different kinds of elements, these jumbo-sized B&M inversions are still a marvel to see in person. I love the grace and scale.

[rcjp]

^I'd also love to see a hyper looping B&M (like a floorless or invert). Their big inversions do look (and ride) great. There's nothing quite like a colossal vertical loop, for instance.

[DoinItForTheFame]

I'd get in on this, but the last 3 pages have had more direction changes than Thunderhead and Maverick combined.

 

This couldn't be more accurate.

 

 

 

---------------------------

 

It's cold out there today...

 

Won't somebody think of the boat!?!?!?!?!?

 

I'm not returning to this thread until the boat returns to the park.

 

 

 

I'll be back before then

 

 

Wow, with the snow storm going on, I hope the boat makes it back ok.

 

#BoatLivesMatter

 

-------------------

 

Now, moving on. . .

 

Valravn is looking amazing. The sheer size of this coaster is amazing. It is massive! There is no doubt that this is going to be a great addition to the park. Regardless of what people think. The GP is going to LOVE this coaster!! And it is going to be a reliablel, people eater. Just what the park needs!! Sure it's no Top Thrill Dragster 2.0, but it is what it is. We can't change what the park is building, so why spend hours upon hours bitching about something that CAN NOT BE CHANGED. Let's all just be glad the park is building an awesome Dive Machine with an awesome Dive Loop... NEVER been done on a Dive Machine before, and a really awesome looking third inversion! If anything it's going to bring even MORE of the GP to the park, which means more money for Cedar Point, which they can use towards RMCign Mean Streak! PLUS... and the biggest plus!!! (For those of you who wait in lines) ... Shorter lines for all the other major coasters!!

[boldikus]