halltd Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 ^ If that's the case, cool. The official report didn't say that though, that's why I didn't think it were true. That makes just as much sense though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkkyj Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Would this type of accident be possible on the Intamin G1 Freefalls (my personal favorite), sense the riders are enclosed in their ride vehicle? You mean like Demon Drop at Cedar Point? If that cable (chain?) breaks, you'll be hitting the anti-rollbacks and sitting still until they let you out. The cable is nowhere near the drop side, so I can't imagine it interfering with the descent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbalvey Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 this tower was a newer version with tension sensors for the computer E-stopped itself. So basically you're saying the ride WORKED and did exactly what is was designed to do. Cables have snapped on rides before. Chain lifts have snapped, etc, etc... As long as the ride's safety system is working as designed, what's the big deal here? --Robb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkkyj Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Thinking about that, it almost seems like the S&S towers would put riders at greater risk. How does an e-stop on the S&S towers work anyway? The design of the S&S has the advantage that the cable is always intended to travel with the vehicle. And since that is the case, an e-stop after drop/shot is possible on an S&S, and it is not possible on an Intamin. So the operator has a tiny bit more time to react and do something. Still... does the S&S e-stop just shut the valves? that would stop the vehicle in hurry, but I don't think the piston is air-tight..? I think the vehicle would start to slowly lower to the ground. Unless the cables have some kind of brake, too, that kicks in shortly after the valve shuts. S&S seems inherently safer to me. Not 100% safe, but safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkkyj Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 this tower was a newer version working as designed, what's the big deal here? --Robb Not a big deal there, but I sure would like to know which towers have such a safety system and which ones don't! We all know of one that didn't.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PURE Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 this tower was a newer version with tension sensors for the computer E-stopped itself. So basically you're saying the ride WORKED and did exactly what is was designed to do. Cables have snapped on rides before. Chain lifts have snapped, etc, etc... As long as the ride's safety system is working as designed, what's the big deal here? --Robb I agree completely. A ride malfunctions and everyone complains. A ride's safety system works as planned and everyone complains. Theme parks just can't seem to win these days. ^^I believe an S&S e-stop stops air pressure from acting on the piston, similar to the "drop" button which can lower the cart at any time. As far as I know when the e-stop is hit, everything stops, and the car slowly descends to the bottom of the tower, with air pressure keeping the fall slow. Since some of you asked how S&S towers work, I understand a little bit about S&S drop towers, so I'll share what I know. I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything about the ride, but from what I've been taught S&S's drop tower is pretty much failsafe. Unless all 4 cables snap at once, the car is going to be supported by the cables that don't snap. Here's a drawing of how the ride works, and why it's so failsafe. I'm not claiming I'm an expert just sharing what I know! Red box is the air tight piston, connected to a cable (pink) that runs down around the wheel, connected to the car (blue), up back around another wheel and connected to the piston on the other side. Air pressure direction (green) from the main air tube determines the direction of the piston. In this case, its pushing the piston down, in turn pushing the car up. There are 4 of these systems per car, hence, 4 green tubs in each tower. There is 1 direction tube, the big blue tube in the middle that determines the direction of movement. This picture below will allow you to compare the drawing with the real thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanic Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 As long as the ride's safety system is working as designed, what's the big deal here? --Robb In the case of this incident, no big deal at all. It's great to see that the system did work as designed to prevent anything more unfortunate from happening. However, from what I've read about the SFKK accident, the key element that failed in that ride's safety system was an operator that didn't know what to do. Had the SFKK ride been equipped similarly to the one that's the subject of this thread, it seems likely that accident could have also simply been a relatively harmless incident as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkkyj Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 A ride malfunctions and everyone complains. A ride's safety system works as planned and everyone complains. I feel like you might be directing that at me.... if so, I'm not complaining about this incident. Actually, the first thing I said was "wow, that's cool." I think a discussion about the safety systems on these types of rides is healthy, and I would really like to know which rides have them and which ones don't. S&S's drop tower is pretty much failsafe. Unless all 4 cables snap at once, the car is going to be supported by the cables that don't snap. I'm comfortable with that... I am more interested about whether a dangling cable on an S&S can cause serious injury like in the SFKK incident. I believe it CAN, but is far less likely to. The cable could snap at the top side of a piston, and when the vehicle goes into its drop program, the cable could snag somebody and cause some big problems when the vehicle bounces back up. BTW... could you have the tubes mixed up? I really would think that there would be one piston in the large tube that all cables attach to so that each side is raised and lowered the exact same amount at the same time. Having 4 pistons in largely independant chambers seems difficult to synchronize. Perhaps the 4 outer tubes are asort of accumulator (as you described the big tube in the pic). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niiicolaaah Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Yeah so someone please figure out which towers have that safety system and which don't! So I know which to avoid and which to ride without fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markieb Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 I have not really read anyone complaining. As mentioned above which have the sensor and which don't? You will never know, unless Intamin does a mandatory retrofit which would not surprise me. It is obvious the cables are not changed out as often as they should be, so the sensor becomes a very important part. It's not a big deal, it's just a choice I make not to ride them again, same for Chaos. There are just some rides history tells me my safety may not be as well protected as on other rides. I think the parks think the same, and after this I would imagine their will be a few more on the market next year! (Edit) I did read that after SFKK cable sensors were installed on many drop towers. Perhaps they have already done a retrofit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahecht Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 The design of the S&S has the advantage that the cable is always intended to travel with the vehicle. ... S&S seems inherently safer to me. Not 100% safe, but safer. Here's the thing though: If, for some reason, all the cables on an Intamin tower break, the car will fall and be stopped normally by the magnetic brakes. There is danger from the loose cable ends, but no risk of the riders going SPLAT. On an S&S tower, there is one cable per side which holds the entire weight of the ride vehicle. If, for some reason, all those cables broke, the ride would plummet to the ground at full speed, and the chances of survival would be quite low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBru Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 ^I wouldn't say that... I know the smaller towers have springs near the bottom that should absorb the shock (and stop the vehicle) from hitting the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halltd Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 On an S&S tower, there is one cable per side which holds the entire weight of the ride vehicle. If, for some reason, all those cables broke, the ride would plummet to the ground at full speed, and the chances of survival would be quite low. Are there not e-stop "brakes" on the ride carriage itself? I honestly don't know. But, I know elevators have "brakes" on them to prevent the cab from crashing into the bottom of the shaft if the cables break. Also, I'm still confused about the S&S towers. I know that if one cable breaks, there are three others so the ride carriage won't plummet to the earth. My question is, if a cable breaks, does the ride e-stop automatically AND immediately? Or, does someone have to press a button? The reason I ask is because during the ride cycle, the carriage is going up and down quite quickly. So, it doesn't really matter if the cable breaks in the "direction of travel" of the ride carriage because that direction is going to change pretty quick. So, unless the ride carriage stops immediately, there's still a chance there's going to be a flopping cable out there that can grab onto someone's limb(s). BTW, I wasn't complaining about the ride safety systems when I said I chose not to ride the Intamin towers anymore. I know it worked right the second time. But, two amazingly similar accidents in less than a year is too much "coincidence" for me to overlook - safe or not. (I don't do well when I gamble. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebl Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 I have yet to ride an Intamin tower, and now that this cable thing has happened a second time, I'm really getting sort of skittish about ever riding. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbalvey Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 I have yet to ride an Intamin tower, and now that this cable thing has happened a second time, I'm really getting sort of skittish about ever riding. Eric Then you might as well never get in your car again or take a shower either. You have far more chance of an incident happening in either of those two places that you do on ANY amusement park ride. I'm actually surprised that someone who is as well educated in the theme park world would say something like that. You should know that the odds are always in your favor when visiting a park. --Robb "More people die by slipping in their showers each year than in amusement park accidents." Alvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebl Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 ^^ Yeah, I really didn't think that out---especially given that I've gotten back on rides where previous accidents have occurred. And, yes, I've fallen in the shower, and still take them. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyber.Fiber Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 halltd, I don't really know what is so confusing about the whole setup of the rides, and why you still don't understand this and many other facts about S&S and Intamin Towers, when you have received many GREAT answers from the other members here. And agreeing with Robb's point: "For healthy people who meet the size requirements for the ride, you are probably safer on the average roller coaster than driving to the amusement park" University of Pennsylvania I know that in this case, it wouldn't matter if you were healthy and meet size requirements, It isn't like everyday a cable snaps on one of these, and consider the amount of people who ride each tower every day, It is highly unlikely that YOU would be one of the unlucky people riding if the cable snaps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halltd Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 I'm actually surprised that someone who is as well educated in the theme park world would say something like that. You should know that the odds are always in your favor when visiting a park. That's actually why I am finding it difficult to want to get on an Intamin tower. I've always been a proponent of park safety and exactly what you said about driving, showering, etc... Accidents are extremely rare when it comes to parks. And, I still believe that. But, when the same accident (minus the horrible injury part) happens to the same type ride in less than a year, that raises a flag to me. To me, that's more than just an accident. I guess it's easier for me to say I'd rather not ride the tower because I never really liked them in the first place. So, it's no big deal to just skip them, ya know? There have been two (right?) accidents on the MF-type coasters too, yet I love riding those. It'd be really hard for me not to. But, then again, we're talking two totally different accidents which are either a result of rider issues or ride issues. If it's something I can't control, I get nervous. I don't ride Chaos anymore either. But again, I never loved it to begin with. So, no big deal passing that one up. edit: halltd, I don't really know what is so confusing about the whole setup of the rides, and why you still don't understand this and many other facts about S&S and Intamin Towers, when you have received many GREAT answers from the other members here. I fully understand the Intamin towers, thank you. And, I also have a great understanding of the operating mechanics behind the S&S towers. I also specifically questioned what I didn't understand - of which has NOT been answered so far. So, I'm not sure what the deal is. No one has said what happens immediately after a cable snap on an S&S tower. Does the ride carriage stop right away? Does it do that automatically? Does a ride op have to press the e-stop? Are there physical brakes on the carriage itself in case all four cables snap like another posted asked (and was never answered). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exit english Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Are there not e-stop "brakes" on the ride carriage itself? I honestly don't know. But, I know elevators have "brakes" on them to prevent the cab from crashing into the bottom of the shaft if the cables break. No, that's the purpose of those hydraulic/pneumatic (I'm not sure which they are off hand) cylinders on the 4 corners at the bottom. They come up about 8 feet as the ride ascends the tower, and have rubber stoppers on the top of them. I've seen a tower ride fall into them on an e-stop that wasn't high enough up the tower to have built up the pressure to catch the car, and aside from the obnoxious "twang" sound and the obvious lack of major bouncing (it bounced 5 or 6 feet twice then stopped), no one was the wiser. -Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBru Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 ^Yes, those cylinders are what I were referring to as the "springs". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkkyj Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 ^^^ That really makes me wonder about the actual setup of the cylinders. I've heard it described two ways--one description has a single piston in the large cylinder that all 4 cables attach to; the other description has a piston in each of the four outer cylinders so that each cable has its own piston. If there are 4 individual pistons, and a cable snaps, wouldn't that piston--now free of the counter force of the vehicle, shoot violently to the opposite end of the cylinder? I guess it would depend on whether the cable detached from the top of the piston or the bottom. On a turbo drop, if the cable detached from the bottom, then the piston would shoot up and the top part of the cable would be spit out of the top, slack and dangerous. There must be something to prevent that, or there is only one piston so that all cables move in unison even during a cable failure. I've read that the S&S system is complex enough to measure the weight of the loaded vehicle to calculate required air pressure.... so it is potentially capable of detecting a number of failure scenarios.... but does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahecht Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 The weight of the S&S car is measured by the pistons described earlier in this thread, not by the pneumatic/cable drive system. You can see it weigh the cars at the start of the ride cycle -- the car lifts up to allow the pistons to extend and then lowers slightly onto the pistons to see how much it compresses them. Shortly after, the car either travels to the top or launches, depending on the model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkkyj Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 ^ Thanks for that. I guess what I'm hoping is that if the system can take the weight as a factor for how it controls the air valve(s), then it could very well look for a cable failure and automatically close the valves, or deploy whatever other braking system the ride may have. I am not worried the least about hitting the ground hard. I'm just interested in if S&S towers are immune to the cable-snagging-a-body-part issue that now appears to be solved on the Intamin towers. And if I don't find out by the next time I'm at a park with an S&S... well, of course I'll still ride it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScubaSteve442 Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Yeah so someone please figure out which towers have that safety system and which don't! So I know which to avoid and which to ride without fear. After the 6FKK incident, all the US towers were retrofitted with the sensor system. S:TOP was the last one that was only using 2 cables to pull the cars up, all the others either were built with 3, or have had them added at some point. I was at 6FGAm today, and Giant Drop was running at least from 6-8pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgathriller Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 How exactly do ARM Drop Towers work? From what I have seen is that the cables are located on the inside of the tower so if they were to snap they wouldn't be able to reach the riders because of the tower? And I also heard that the car that the people sit in are stopped by magnets? Is this true? If so wouldn't this be a safer alternative that can be implemented in these larger drop towers? http://www.armrides.com/Rides/Super_Shot/Portable/gallery.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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