Why is there a nationwide lack of flat rides in the US?

[Propeller Factory]

I've been looking at parks and I've noticed that they have a lot of roller coasters, but not a lot of accompanying flat rides for them. What should the parks do? Should they initiate flat ride packages where they have a year to put in like 5 or so flat rides?nbut I feel like these chain parks should do something about it.

[JonnyRCT3]

Kennywood, Knoebels, Cedar Point, Hersheypark, Knott's Berry Farm, Holiday World, Universal Parks, Disney Parks, Sea World Parks.....basically everything not Six Flags is the contrary.

[Midgetman82]

^I can sort of agree with that. It just depends on where you look (and what you consider a "flat ride"). While focus is primarilly on the roller coasters, there are plenty of parks out there with a good to great selection of flats as well.

[ScreaminNewEngland]

Fiesta Texas' line up seems to be fading fast.....I really hope they don't loose hustler.

 

SFNE has nothing, Buzzsaw is ok as is kontiki but all the other flats are garbage. Hershey seems to be lacking in good ones too.

 

But I found Dorney to have an awesome flat line up! Canobie's line up also kicks ass too!

[Propeller Factory]

Also another thing why is it that Europe gets really cool creative flat rides and we keep jetting the same things at every chain park (tsunami soaker, sky screamer, windseeker)?

[Jew]

R.O.I.

 

When Tim Burkhart said it would be hard to get a return for a flat ride, he was 100% correct. Major market parks aren't going to win over guests with a Top Spin.

 

As far as the fair circuit? Most of the large flat rides are too big/heavy and expensive to travel in the U.S.

[Midgetman82]

Europe has a superior fairground market, but the majority of those rides seem like they're originally built to be transportable. I wish as much as you do that they would bring more of them over to the States. They look awesome!

 

I think a park would do excellent if they spent money on a line of flats instead of one major flat, like what Coney Island did when they called in Zamperla a while back. The only problem is that it still wouldn't market that well nowadays.

[gerstlaueringvar]

Because Six Flags is the biggest park chain in US.

[KBrylczyk]

I think a park would do excellent if they spent money on a line of flats instead of one major flat, like what Coney Island did when they called in Zamperla a while back. The only problem is that it still wouldn't market that well nowadays.

 

How did that end up working out for Heide with their Huss-land? It didn't strike me as anything special when I visited in 2012, but then again every ride there is one that's been stapled to death at every other park.

[OrlandoGuy]

R.O.I.

 

When Tim Burkhart said it would be hard to get a return for a flat ride, he was 100% correct. Major market parks aren't going to win over guests with a Top Spin.

 

Well...sort of. You wont attract a ton of people next season by solely adding a Top Spin. But the more variety you have, the more appeal your park will have, and the more people will want to come back...every season, not just the season with the biggest new roller coaster addition. And obviously thats the key to success--getting your customers not only to come, but to come back.

 

So flats are not completely hopeless for getting a park a good ROI at all. It just has to be done right. Like I said, if a parks 2015 addition is just a flat, it wont bring in a huge influx of people, maybe not even enough to make the installation profitable; but by adding flats in addition to their major investments (big coasters, more large-scale flat rides), sort of in the way Cedar Point added the Flying Scooters along with Pipe Scream and the Gemini midway, then you are able to secure an ROI (which comes with the influx of crowds coming to see the big headliner) while simultaneously making your park more appealing in the long-run. Like I said, Cedar Point has sort of jumped on this, and Valleyfair had the right idea as well by making their major 2014 addition a full flat ride-based park section.

 

It can be done, and hopefully parks are starting to see that. I think the problem is a lack of viable options for flats at this point...Huss isnt financially stable, correct? And Mondial seems very unreliable. A smart park can make flats work; the problem is finding a smart manufacturer.

[Jew]

^If flat rides and variety were the keys to getting guests to keep coming back, we wouldn't be having this discussion as to why there is a perceived lack of flat rides in the U.S.

 

You summed up perfectly exactly why there is a lack of flat rides: they are complimentary rides. They add capacity and some marketing/attendance value without the high cost of a big ticket ride. Cedar Point had the liberty of doing the Gemini Midway in 2014 because they just built GateKeeper and can still use that as the anchor attraction.

 

Major flat rides are also cost prohibitive for what you get. For example, a giant Frisbee is listed as $4.5 million dollars. Ravine Flyer II is listed as $6 million. Smaller parks are going to be much more inclined to spend a little more to get a coaster vs. a giant flat ride. However, after a park has plopped down $20+ million for a major ride, $4.5 mil (or less) just to say you added something isn't a terrible idea.

[Noporian]

It seems like for some reason flats don't have such an appeal in the US. Over there it seems like always bigger coasters, but nothing else does. I mean over here it's if a flat ride comes in any park for that matter, people are batshish excited, it's not about how big it is it's about the experience.

[DirkFunk]

As someone who's traveled overseas, I don't necessarily think that the US actually has a comparative dearth of flat rides. Heide Park, for example, has 9 flat rides. SFNE, a comparable US park, has the same exact number of flat rides.

 

The big differences are societal in nature. Flat rides in America don't run like they do in Europe, which traces back to how the carnival rides operate in each country IMO. The US carnival circuit is based of enormous companies who take over the whole midway and only occasionally book in pieces from outside their company to fill it out. This has been the case for decades and decades - Conklin and Royal American years ago, NAME, Wade, RCS, etc. today. You do see big iron on the road though generally for independent midways: Florida, Texas, Minnesota,and to a lesser extent Wisconsin after they changed over since apparently sales there haven't been as hot.

 

Over in Europe, practically every major fair is independent and showmen only own a few pieces at any given time. There's no wristband deals, and if you pay 5-6-7 euros to go on a spinning ride, you expect to get your money's worth. And generally speaking, they deliver. If anything, it makes as much sense for the US to have large rides as Europe does given that we have cheaper gas and probably cheaper labor too, but the economics of the beast don't allow it. You just can't do that when instead of collecting $5 a ride, you're scanning some kid's wristband over and over that cost his parents $22. There's also the issue of rider habits: when the top grossing attractions at major US fairs typically end up being giant slides, permanent fairgrounds skyrides, and music rides (Musik Express/Swiss Bob/Himalaya/Matterhorn) over coasters and giant multitrailer flat rides, why not just invest more in one trailer attractions to essentially complement that stuff?

[Joshuadrooney]

Contrary to what someone else said earlier, Europe has barely any really imaginative flat rides. Just the usual Mondial/Huss/Zamperla/Intamin/Fabbri line up with the exception of Thorpe Park, which operates the last remaining S&S Sky Swat.

[DirkFunk]

Contrary to what someone else said earlier, Europe has barely any really imaginative flat rides. Just the usual Mondial/Huss/Zamperla/Intamin/Fabbri line up with the exception of Thorpe Park, which operates the last remaining S&S Sky Swat.

 

Yeah, I mean, you see stuff like Mondial Top Scans once in awhile in both places. It isn't like Europe is the land of milk, honey, and Top Star Tours or KMG XXLs on every street corner.

 

(I think cost is probably relevant too here. A lot of flat rides being bought in the US have been for awhile and still are Italian rides - Zamperla, Technical Park, Moser. There's a deserved reputation for cheapness there. Mondial's credibility went out the window with the worthless Windseekers and the flying body on Long Island's Top Scan. Huss, as stated before, is basically doing not much more than sell eastern european fabricated parts to rides they sold a long time ago. Why doesn't KMG sell left and right to parks? They're dutch and probably expensive.)

[Geauga Dog]

I think it's a change of mentality for your average park goer. Back when many of the nation's theme parks were opening in the 70's and early 80's they were filled with flat rides. Then came the one-upmanship in coasters that seemed to put more focus on the next biggest coaster all the while flats were beginning to disappear from some parks.

 

Nowadays flats seem to be relegated to kid's areas and smaller parks who are willing to invest in them. How many times have we heard that at some parks there isn't enough for the tweeners, i.e. too big for the kid's rides and too short for the bigger rides? A good collection of flats helps fill that void and makes a park experience more rounded.

[Propeller Factory]

R.O.I.

 

When Tim Burkhart said it would be hard to get a return for a flat ride, he was 100% correct. Major market parks aren't going to win over guests with a Top Spin.

 

Well...sort of. You wont attract a ton of people next season by solely adding a Top Spin. But the more variety you have, the more appeal your park will have, and the more people will want to come back...every season, not just the season with the biggest new roller coaster addition. And obviously thats the key to success--getting your customers not only to come, but to come back.

 

So flats are not completely hopeless for getting a park a good ROI at all. It just has to be done right. Like I said, if a parks 2015 addition is just a flat, it wont bring in a huge influx of people, maybe not even enough to make the installation profitable; but by adding flats in addition to their major investments (big coasters, more large-scale flat rides), sort of in the way Cedar Point added the Flying Scooters along with Pipe Scream and the Gemini midway, then you are able to secure an ROI (which comes with the influx of crowds coming to see the big headliner) while simultaneously making your park more appealing in the long-run. Like I said, Cedar Point has sort of jumped on this, and Valleyfair had the right idea as well by making their major 2014 addition a full flat ride-based park section.

 

It can be done, and hopefully parks are starting to see that. I think the problem is a lack of viable options for flats at this point...Huss isnt financially stable, correct? And Mondial seems very unreliable. A smart park can make flats work; the problem is finding a smart manufacturer.

 

Ok first of all I have no clue what an ROI is.

And then to add on, I really feel like parks should start making more rides and coasters that are rerideable. Like coasters such as kingda ka and full throttle look fun (I haven't been on them) but I don't know if you could really ride them 2, 3 times in a row. In my opinion, if you build a huge new coaster, you should also, in the same year, build at least 2 new flat rides in the same area to accompany the coaster.

[Manic Monte]

I've personally never gotten the appeal of most modern day flats. I do like the classic ones from my childhood, but the modern ones seem way over the top in their attempt to mess your stomach up for the rest of the day.

 

And Six Flags? Don't even bother. It'll be a crap shoot to even find them open on a given day. Heck, come to think of it, I couldn't even catch Riptide or Windseeker at Knotts open... ever.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Manic Monte

[Coasterguy21]

^If flat rides and variety were the keys to getting guests to keep coming back, we wouldn't be having this discussion as to why there is a perceived lack of flat rides in the U.S.

 

You summed up perfectly exactly why there is a lack of flat rides: they are complimentary rides. They add capacity and some marketing/attendance value without the high cost of a big ticket ride. Cedar Point had the liberty of doing the Gemini Midway in 2014 because they just built GateKeeper and can still use that as the anchor attraction.

 

Major flat rides are also cost prohibitive for what you get. For example, a giant Frisbee is listed as $4.5 million dollars. Ravine Flyer II is listed as $6 million. Smaller parks are going to be much more inclined to spend a little more to get a coaster vs. a giant flat ride. However, after a park has plopped down $20+ million for a major ride, $4.5 mil (or less) just to say you added something isn't a terrible idea.

 

I think you hit this right on the money!

 

You can't build a large $10 million-$20 million coaster every year. If a park did that, then they wouldn't be getting the full potential off their previous addition. Cedar Point was mentioned, and their flat ride/tower ride additions in the past few years have been strategically placed in between major coasters to make sure that ROI was to its biggest extent (by the way Propeller Factory, ROI means "Return on Investment").

 

Cedar Point opened Mantis in 1996 and Power Tower in 1998. Two years later, Millennium Force was added.

 

maXair & Skyhawk were added in back-to-back years, but were in between Top Thrill Dragster (which the park was still trying to get increase ROI on due to its first season issues) and Maverick, the next big coaster. Due to Maverick opening in 2007, the flats were definitely strategically placed in investment terms. Then you mentioned this year's Gemini Improvements, riding off that tail of GateKeeper. Absolutely correct!

 

Parks have to do it all in terms of ROI. If a flat seems like it will be a good ROI one year, then they'll go for it. It not, then they won't. If its time for a coaster, then they'll go with the coaster. But building a $25 million coaster and then a $6 million flat ride in the same year might make it a bit harder to get that good ROI.

 

We'll continue to see flats into the future. Be thankful for the ones that we have.

[OrlandoGuy]

R.O.I.

 

When Tim Burkhart said it would be hard to get a return for a flat ride, he was 100% correct. Major market parks aren't going to win over guests with a Top Spin.

 

Well...sort of. You wont attract a ton of people next season by solely adding a Top Spin. But the more variety you have, the more appeal your park will have, and the more people will want to come back...every season, not just the season with the biggest new roller coaster addition. And obviously thats the key to success--getting your customers not only to come, but to come back.

 

So flats are not completely hopeless for getting a park a good ROI at all. It just has to be done right. Like I said, if a parks 2015 addition is just a flat, it wont bring in a huge influx of people, maybe not even enough to make the installation profitable; but by adding flats in addition to their major investments (big coasters, more large-scale flat rides), sort of in the way Cedar Point added the Flying Scooters along with Pipe Scream and the Gemini midway, then you are able to secure an ROI (which comes with the influx of crowds coming to see the big headliner) while simultaneously making your park more appealing in the long-run. Like I said, Cedar Point has sort of jumped on this, and Valleyfair had the right idea as well by making their major 2014 addition a full flat ride-based park section.

 

It can be done, and hopefully parks are starting to see that. I think the problem is a lack of viable options for flats at this point...Huss isnt financially stable, correct? And Mondial seems very unreliable. A smart park can make flats work; the problem is finding a smart manufacturer.

 

Ok first of all I have no clue what an ROI is.

And then to add on, I really feel like parks should start making more rides and coasters that are rerideable. Like coasters such as kingda ka and YOLOcoaster look fun (I haven't been on them) but I don't know if you could really ride them 2, 3 times in a row. In my opinion, if you build a huge new coaster, you should also, in the same year, build at least 2 new flat rides in the same area to accompany the coaster.

 

ROI = Return on Investment. Typically, a park that spends 6 million on a flat is not going to see an increase in revenue of more than 6 million that season.

 

I do believe that in the long run, flats are a good decision, and parks are allowed to have one "down" season to add a flat and simply recuperate the money on the season of their next big purchase...or add flats alongside big additions so the profits from the big additions cancel out the cost of the flats. In doing this, a park greatly increases its appeal and ability to draw crowds over a larger timespan, rather than become a park that relies solely on the next big coaster addition. The argument here seems to be whether or not parks should be inclined to think this way. I believe that Cedar Fair already has sort of begun this line of thinking (about the long-term rather than the short) with the Gemini midway update at CP, Route area at VF, and cosmetic updates to KD--all investments that dont secure a huge ROI in the immediate season, but will provide beneficial in the long run. This mentality applies to purchase of flats as well. Like I said, I think the real problem is lack of options.

[willh51]

Discovery Kingdom has a couple of good ones, with the Frisbee and Hammerhead. Cedar Point does/did, but I miss Chaos.

[Propeller Factory]

Do you think it would be worth it If so done came along and started a flat ride business like rmc did with roller coasters? Or should big companies that already have reputations start designing/making more flat rides? OR (I just thought of this) what if a big companies teamed up with a smaller company that makes good flat rides? (Big companies will give small companies money to design flat rides (?)) idk how that would work...

[OneOfTheWills]

I think part of the reason parks choose to invest in roller coasters more than flats in the US is because parks know today's guests don't get excited about flats like they used to. This is because, in my opinion, a majority of flat rides spin and guests see this and think, "I don't do spinning rides." Since there are only so many unique ways you can spin someone other guests think, "I've ridden one similar to that before," and then decide not to ride or at least they don't go home and tell their friends to attend the park because of a certain flat ride.

 

US patrons like the uniqueness of roller coasters and slides (even though they too are basically the same ride over and over) because each design is different enough to draw in new and repeat guests. At least in my personal opinion, flat rides don't have that "designed" feeling that slides and coasters have. To me they all feel like replicated machines that replicate themselves every time you ride.

 

I'm sure there are other, more probable, reasons why larger parks sway away from flats but it does seem that the industry as a whole has moved away from them.

[larrygator]

ROI = Return on Investment. Typically, a park that spends 6 million on a flat is not going to see an increase in revenue of more than 6 million that season.

 

No park in their right mind expects to make all their money back in the first year.

 

If you look back at amusement park that were started in the 1970s most opened with a flat ride package that was larger than their original coaster count. Magic Mountain opened with 2 coasters (one a kiddie) in 1971. Great Adventure had 2 coasters open during their first season in 1974. Both Great America's, Kings Island and Dominion each had 3 coasters (one of which was a kiddie). This followed what was prevalent at the existing old time amusement parks.

 

However, coaster technology took great leaps forward and people became hungry for these big thrills and the corporate parks catered to these tastes as it drove attendance. Biggest, fastest, tallest and steepest mean something to people and not just enthusiasts.

 

However, whenever something new and exciting in the realm of flats/non-coasters became hot quite a few parks jumped on board. I'm old enough to remember the first river rapids ride, and how every big park had to get one soon thereafter. When drop tower became hot practically every park got one within 10 years. However, few parks would build more than one classification of drop tower, yet they would multiple classifications of steel coasters.

 

Very few people go to an amusement park to ride flats and that's the biggest reason. When Cedar Point built MaxAir, Skyhawk and Windseeker those rides by themselves did not bring me (or others) to the park. Soon we rode them but we traveled for the coasters.

[Rollercoaster Rider]

Kennywood, Knoebels, Cedar Point, Hersheypark, Knott's Berry Farm, Holiday World, Universal Parks, Disney Parks, Sea World Parks.....basically everything not Six Flags is the contrary.

 

 

Yeah, It's not like Six Flags Over Texas, Six Flags St. Louis, Six Flags Great America, Six Flags America, The Great Escape, Six Flags Discovery Kingdom, Six Flags Mexico, or La Ronde have any flats.

 

 

Six Flags in the past few years have only added like 8 Star Flyers (That work), A Frisbee, A Top Spin, Bumper Cars, Mack Twist N' Splash, Flying Scooters, and 2 Drop Towers (If you count those as flats)

 

 

Too bad Six Flags can't be like Busch Gardens Africa with like 4 flat rides (Carousel, Phoenix, Gwazi Gliders, Bumper Cars)