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The Knott's Berry Farm (KBF) Discussion Thread

P. 651: Montezooma's Revenge project terminated?

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Vortex is crappy no matter where it is. I think the simple answer is to add attractions that draw in guests and enhance the park, through types of rides and themes. Carefully placing them as to not disrupt the atmosghere of the area but this can be challenging with limited space and care must be taken to that end. But do most of the GP really care about that or are they just interested in what's new and thrilling? Would attendance be higher with great atmosphere or a bunch of thrilling rides all over?

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^^ I think had Knott's not already had Montezooma's Revenge, it'd get the same exact reaction if they brought it in from another park.

 

The thing is, these rides aren't "cutting edge" with eleventy-three inversions, record breaking height, and 0-182 in one second speeds. The public will see this as "WTF?!?!?" and we enthusiasts see it as a step backwards.

 

Eric

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A short-term marketing system would benefit from the seasonal addition plan. Thinking on a long-term scale, not concerned with immediate cash and profit grabbing, you can do a lot more with atmosphere than you can with coasters. Knotts might have cornered some of the teen demographic, but what family can go to Knotts with kids under 48 inches and get the full experience they are paying so generously for? This is supposed to be a family-oriented park. I saw a bunch of kids having to sit out while their older siblings went and rode...they didn't look happy. Why are supposed family additions coming with such a ridiculous height requirement?

 

It just doesn't make sense to me. Almost all of the decisions CF has made for the park...I don't get it. I just don't get it.

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See here's the thing about Knott's and it's last few additions that I've seen issue with (up to and including Demon Drop)

 

Now this isn't bashing Knott's or Cedar Fair in any way, just some things I've noticed that I personally feel would've been a better decision.

 

GhostRider is a cool ride (minus the roughness). It's a nice, long, big wooden coaster, and wooden coasters have always been a staple to amusement parks. The fact that 90% of it extends either out of the park or backstage keeps it's placement in the Historic Ghost Town tranquil and fitting. Many people can ride with the minimum height requirement at 48", so child swapping is kept to a minimum. Thumbs up on adding GhostRider.

 

Supreme Scream. Yea, the height requirement is 52", so unless you're over 4' tall (pointing at children) you can't ride. SE DOES however add to the thrill factor of the park. It's not too extreme, immpecable safety record, low maintenence, and decent capacity, it gave guests a reason to forget that WindJammer was never open (and might I add is doing a great job at easing the pain on guests that Xcelerator's not open...but we'll get to that in a bit) Thumbs up on adding Supreme Scream.

 

Perilous Plunge filled the void of soaker attraction in the park...(despite Bigfoot Rapids having it's geysers turned off, but for safety reasons, so you can't complain about that too much). Perilous was Knott's attempt to become a park that plays host to a "world's most" type attraction, which many would consider to be unfitting for "the friendliest place in the west". The ride did add water to the Boardwalk area, which prior to the addition of Perilous, the Boardwalk had no water...go figure. Save for vanity an a steepest drop on a water attraction, the problematic operations, horribly designed capacity, and reprofiling of the boats that cause a less than desirable splash, Perilous' novelty wore off the same time the new boat smell did. Thumbs down on adding Perilous Plunge

 

Intamin shook the coaster world in 2002 with the inception of the hydraulically launched "Xcelerator". Never brefore has a coaster been able to pack such an intense jettisen, in a compact amount of space while conserving so much energy compared to it's magnetic predessesors. Getting up to 82 mph in 150 feet isn't something to be scoffed at, but in the same respect, this sinngle addition would be the blueprint for things to come at Knott's and the direction the park would be driven of this decade. Many parks would love to have a rocket coaster-when they run, but when the type rears it's ugly head of overheating, proximity sequence errors, mechanical foleys, and overall a "maintence nightmare", Xcelerator has just as much a reputation of "the ride that's never open", as it does the "coolest ride in the park. Can go either way on adding Xcelerator.

 

Silver Bullet is a fun ride. Silver Bullet is a reliable ride. Silver Bullet is a high capacity ride. However, Silver Bullet has the single highest height restrictions in the park. Silver Bullet not only shows that the park made no attempt to make this ride blend into the celebrated scenary of Ghost Town, it almost as if it were intended to stick out like a sore thumb. The ride itself is no major nusance, but up to Bullets first dispatch for guests on December 7th, 2004, Knott's Berry Farm had gone 9 years without a true "family addition"-and the drought would continue. Silver Bullet was nothing more than a manifestation of the park's parent company doing to Knott's what it does to all it's parks, "build 'em high, build 'em fast". That formula has long worked for the thrill oriented market in mind, but Knott's has never truly been a strong player in the thrill market. Knott's made it's claim to fame from taking a piece of American history in the region and bringing that history to life through shows, rides, theming, and atmosphere, Silver Bullet was a harsh reminder that these things that helped establish what Knott's was, was exactly it...what Knott's Berry Farm WAS. As marketable as a B&M invert is, there are far more practical ways to keep attendance high without catering to the small and virtually penniless thrill market. Thumbs down on adding Silver Bullet.

 

Sierra Sidewinder marketed as a family ride just seems odd to me, considering it replaced a BETTER family ride with lighter rider restrictions that could've been enjoyed by far more people...dare I say the entire family. Perhaps I'd think more highly of this ride if it were placed somewhere that could've been an addition to the coaster lineup, rather than "Well, it replaced Walter K. Steamboat...but the height requirement's only 42" so it's great for families". Sidewinder may very well be great for families, but Steamboat was BETTER for families. Thumbs down on adding Sierra Sidewinder.

 

Pony Express. Where to begin with Pony Express. I would’ve much rather seen Knott’s spend $10 million in park renovations (log/mine ride updating) than buy P90X. It’s too short for it to really do anything, with the lack of restraints, it heralds a 48” height requirement, despite the fact it’s one of the more tame rides they offer, and in terms of diversity, offers what two other coasters in the park already do. Talk about continuity! Thumbs down on adding P90X

 

Demon Drop….it is what it is. I think a park like Michigan’s Adventure or heck even Gilroy Gardens could’ve used this ride Waaay more than Knott’s could have. Ballpark figure…if it costs $1.5 million to dismantle, ship, reassemble, program, and open Demon Drop, I think it would’ve been much more practical to use that money to aid a hurting operations, use to once again improve park quality, and maybe even touch up or add new shows, the parks claim to fame to begin with. Just because coasters and thrill rides keep the turnstiles spinning doesn’t mean it’s the only thing that will. Thumbs down, not on adding Demon Drop, but on the thought that this was the best thing the park could do for next season, despite recent ride additions in 2007 and 2008. There are other areas in the park that could use updating.

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^I agree with most of your opinions except Perilous Plunge.

 

I think Perilous Plunge was a great addition that added a lot to the Boardwalk atmosphere. Not having water in the boardwalk area would be lame. I don't like the new boats though. When standing on the bridge, your feet barely get wet. You used to be able to stand in the back and still get very wet. You now only get sprinkled if you are lucky and the wind is in your favor.

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This was posted on Screamscape today...

 

(11/2/09) Screamscape has heard a weird rumor claiming that Demon Drop may get a very interesting technical upgrade when it reopens at Knott’s next year. If it works out, look for the new Demon Drop to feature a brand new magnetic braking system that will go a long way to cutting down on the noise factor from the 1st Gen ride system.

 

Sounds kinda promising!

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You guys seem to be forgetting that 10 years ago, there WAS water on the Boardwalk. Windjammer was built over a small lake and the surfing theme was what made the Boardwalk after being rethemed from the Roaring 20's in 1997. However, Windjammer was closed for much of it's life because of mechanical and structural problems, as well as low ridership. Such a failure was inevitably going to be replaced. Xcelerator, while it has its share of problems and took the Boardwalk theme in a different direction that the Knott family did, is a perfect fit for the park in these days of "bigger is better." That being said, Perilous Plunge was built right about the same time Windjammer was permanently shut down, and saved that back corner of the park. I remember the days of riding the old parachute drop that was attached to the sky tower and the relaxing atmosphere in the Windjammer area.

 

I feel the addition of Demon Drop can be a step in the right direction if some thought is put into it. Think about it...an old ride like that could be themed to something old, like a mine shaft for Ghost Town. I can't imagine this would fit in worse for the theme of the park than the Screamin' Swing did, no matter what they end up doing with the ride.

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My original question still stands and is yet to be answered: what should Knott's/CF be doing to keep guests coming back year after year while maintaining the atmosphere and feel that everyone wants? If they can't build new rides/coasters without wrecking the view or atmosphere, or if people aren't happy with them bringing in other rides from other parks (ala Demon Drop) -- then what are they supposed to do? New variety shows certainly won't cut it.

 

What they did for GhostRider (granted that was planned by the Knott family) would more than suffice.

 

I refuse to believe that it was impossible to combine a thrilling ride with a theme to "blend" in with KBF.

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My original question still stands and is yet to be answered: what should Knott's/CF be doing to keep guests coming back year after year while maintaining the atmosphere and feel that everyone wants? If they can't build new rides/coasters without wrecking the view or atmosphere, or if people aren't happy with them bringing in other rides from other parks (ala Demon Drop) -- then what are they supposed to do? New variety shows certainly won't cut it.

 

What they did for GhostRider (granted that was planned by the Knott family) would more than suffice.

 

I refuse to believe that it was impossible to combine a thrilling ride with a theme to "blend" in with KBF.

 

Can also just look to Busch, DW or SDC for perfect examples of how to blend them in without ruining what's already there. Unfortunately it requires CF to give a crap about what's already there, which they obviously don't.

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Dollywood is a good example of expansion without destroying pre-existing theme. And, they have far less money than Cedar Fair.

 

Among the things Knott's could do in the future besides recycling CP's trash..a.) refresh the Calico Mine Ride with better AA (and log ride - maybe license a kids property) and/or modify the track/train of Calico into an actual coaster for the family crowd, b.) dump Mystery Lodge for a flex 4-D theater, C.) 3D theater for Camp Snoopy, D.) add scenic/show elements for Stagecoach and Train (Knotts could use dark rides for the kids), E.) light gun shooter in the old Kingdom of Dinosaur bldg.

 

Massive coasters would be a challenge, but rides like Wicked Twister, Intamin Half Pipe, Disko Coaster can fit into Knotts while still being different enough from what SF and DL/DCA offer.

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Dollywood is a good example of expansion without destroying pre-existing theme. And, they have far less money than Cedar Fair.

 

Uh...you know that Cedar Fair is over $1 billion in debt, right?

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Dollywood is a good example of expansion without destroying pre-existing theme. And, they have far less money than Cedar Fair.

 

Uh...you know that Cedar Fair is over $1 billion in debt, right?

 

^ My thoughts exactly about Cedar Fair's debt..... I wonder how long they can hold off till they file for bk?

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^They don't have to make a profit, all they really have to do is break even and make the minimum payments on their loans. Profits would certainly help, but as long as they continue to make their payments they will be good. Albeit two billion is a lot (I thought it was two, I could be wrong though).

 

And in regards to why, they did it purposefully, it is not like their debt just appeared out of no where. A large chunk of that likely came from the purchase of the paramount parks. So when they did buy those parks, and all the present coasters, they weigh the costs and benefits and compare them. So though it may seem irrational to take on that much of a debt load, there was a reason behind it and CF likely saw some opportunity in those parks. Time will tell though.

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Lol wow, $1 Billion? Seriously?! There even spending $25 million on Intimidator305, wow! Interesting fact, Royal Caribbean just spent $1.1 Billion on a new ship :-P anyways back to subject, Knott's has always had a cool park, I think I might have to go to it soon.

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Does anyone know what a "Knott's Berry Farm merchandise location" is? I was checking out their website for the Toys for Tots deal next month, and it says for the free admission, the toy must be from one of those locations. Otherwise, you get a coupon for $15 admission instead of free admission.

 

Here's the link:

http://www.knotts.com/public/admission/prices/deals.cfm

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Does anyone know what a "Knott's Berry Farm merchandise location" is? I was checking out their website for the Toys for Tots deal next month, and it says for the free admission, the toy must be from one of those locations. Otherwise, you get a coupon for $15 admission instead of free admission.

 

Here's the link:

http://www.knotts.com/public/admission/prices/deals.cfm

 

I'm sure any of the stores in the park or outside in the marketplace would qualify as a Knott's merchandise location for that promotion.

 

 

Unrelated note, just saw this video today. It's of Chinese pop star Sun Ho's "new" (released in September) US single "Fancy Free" and it seemed as if it was completely filmed at Knott's. It's Lady Gaga-ish in that it's faux-rock in a completely pop sort of way, so you have been warned.

 

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Here is the isssue. Knotts cannot and should not choose to be a "family park" or an "extreme park." As we all know, Magic Mountain and DIsneyland allready occupy those places. Therfore, Knotts needs to end up in the middle.

 

Lets start with what they have now:

 

Xcelerator-Luv it but it needs a paint job

Silver Bulle-Luv it

Perilous Plunge-Luv it but the new boats kinda suck

Ghost Rider-Luv it but it's too rough in places

Supreem Scream-Luv it but it gets boring after 2 many rides

 

Now...the stuff I dont like or have issues with

 

Jaguar and Montezoomas are extremely outdated! First, Jaguar needs to go because there is allready 2 family coasters that have been added in these last 5 years. (Both of which my opinion is indifferent about). It is poorly themed and a piece of junk. Montezoomas was great, b ut the park already has a launch coaster so it really has lost it's flare. WHat they should do is tear out Montezoomas and Jaguar to make room for a new B&M coaster. Maybe like SFOG Goliath. KBF really lacks a good coaster with large hills. It could use Jaguars station but have it updated to not feel like a total $#!# hole. That Takes care of Fiesta Villiage.

 

The other parts of the park are fine. (for now) Boomerang is showing it's age but what could you really put in there that will be better than what is allready there?

 

Finally...as for the new drop ride from Cedar Point... It is a complete waste of money. It is not new, or interesting. The public wont care. KBF allready has a great drop ride (supreem scream). Really bad decision. What needs to happen is for KBF to update itself. Hive the old mine ride and logride a faclift. Repaint Xcelerator! and send the old CP ride to the dump. Bring us a solid B&M!!!!

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Thanks for the clarification, RCFreak.

 

Sephiroth, I agree with you on some of your points, but this is what I think:

 

You're right about the fact that Knott's shouldn't try to be a family or extreme park. But at this point, SFMM is actually doing better than Knott's, in my opinion, with bringing in families. It's like both of their reputations completed flip flopped. Knott's is way too over crowded with coasters. At SFMM, you can't see many of the supports or coasters because they're all either on their own piece of restricted land, or hidden by trees.

 

With the rides, I think Xcelerator needs a paint job. Silver Bullet should get a paint job that actually represents a some sort of ghost town theme.

 

I disagree with the fact that Montezooma's Revenge or Jaguar need to be scraped. Reason being, Jaguar still entertains lots of kids today, and Montezooma's is one of the most intense coasters in the park. It's DEFINITELY more intense than Silver Bullet. If they did scrap them, how do you think a B&M Hyper like Goliath would fit in there? There would still be no room.

 

Rides that should be taken out, though, are Perilous Plunge and Boomerang. Maybe even Riptide. The only reason Boomerang or PP ever have lines anymore is because they are both one train or boat operation. Perilous Plunge never runs its second boat whenever I visit. Riptide never has a line when I go, either. I think they could fit your B&M Hyper idea back there, with the station being where PP is now, and have the lift hill go out over the bumper cars and Pony Express. Then have the hills and drop in the backstage area to the left of Bigfoot. All the smaller hills after the MCBR could be coming back from that area, then it could do a splashdown where PP is now.

 

Demon Drop is just a disappointment, in my opinion. Just another excuse to tell park goers, "Hey! We have a 'new' ride!"

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Still. I think perilous plunge is a decent ride for several reasons. It IS a world record AND it gets very popular during the summer. Now boomerang...there is nothing that can replace it that would 1: be a better ride, and 2: actually fit. However, fiesta villiage has seriously deteriorated. It's fake coloring and is just filled with puke stains everywhere. Everywhere I look I kinda wanna barf. Jaguar is a terrible ride. It's slow, ugly, and noisy. Montezooma's is a classic but looks like it is getting close to the end of its lifespan. And i think there would b room. If it started in the Jaguar station, came up a steep incline and goes like...idk 200ft, and then does a sharp turn down to the right, and does hills along the old montezoomas layout and does a large overbanked turn around the present Jaguar turns. It could really work and could also reduce some of the croudedness factor while replaceing 1 mediocre ride and 1 $#itty ride with a new awsome thrill. Which is what most people who go to knotts want.

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