The official NFL Discussion Thread

[Hercules]

^ I am not saying they are on par with the Bears or Ravens, but I do think they will be hovering around a top 5 defense at the end of the year. I don't think they are the best, but I think, overall, they make the Packers very well-rounded. Just to look at the division: I don't think Cutler, even without last night, makes that Bears defense any good. Peterson is still the only good point about the Vikings offense, even with Favre. And the Lions aren't really a joke anymore, but it will be tough for them to win a game with that defense. As long as Grant and the running game can get going again, the Packers seem like they would be the ones with the most pieces of the puzzle.

[JEAPUgrad]

After having the number one defense in the pre-season, the Ravens' D did not show up yesterday.

 

I saw it first hand!

The Game, Ravens 38-KC 24

Mom isn't smiling because the Ravens are winning. She's smiling because she wants a piece of that!

The seats

Corporate Tents! All You Can Eat Crab Cakes and Beer...location location location.

Yours truly looking sexy in the endzone

You gotta know the right people

Pre-game 9/13

[KPfreak519]

Wow, Im pretty disappointed in Buffalo. They had that game and let it slip right through their fingers, and of course now everybody PRAISES Tom Brady for his IMMACULATE return to the sport because he threw a 15 yard TD pass to win the game after the Bills fumbled the kickoff that would have given them the game ending possession.

[bigstevet07]

After week four, you'll wish Orton was nowhere near Denver. Trust me.

 

Cutler sucked last night, like he did in his first pre-season game. He reminds me of Favre.....about twenty years ago.

 

I don't want him anywhere near Denver right now, but have no choice unfortunately.

 

That was always the knock on Cutler though. He's got such a great arm and is so cocky he'll throw it anywhere no matter what the coverage is. It gets worse when you hit him a few times. He's still better than Orton though.

[Homeboy23]

he'll throw it anywhere no matter what the coverage is. It gets worse when you hit him a few times.

 

Atleast he isn't as bad as Delhomme with that.

[bigstevet07]

I think Delhomme is done. It looks like that surgery really affected his arm strength and can't make the throws he used to. I'm sure his confidence is shot too.

 

Carolina is in trouble. They should have gone out and gotten a decent backup.

[Homeboy23]

He goes into many moods. One game he is fine and looks like a great QB while the next game he looks like Ryan Leaf.

[Satchboogie3]

Wow, Im pretty disappointed in Buffalo. They had that game and let it slip right through their fingers, and of course now everybody PRAISES Tom Brady for his IMMACULATE return to the sport because he threw a 15 yard TD pass to win the game after the Bills fumbled the kickoff that would have given them the game ending possession.

 

After missing an entire season to an injury, he comes out and shakes off the rust and returns to GOAT form in the matter of 1 game. Stats before 5 min left in the 4th Quarter: 27 of 39 for 254 yds, 1 Int, 0 TD. During the last 2 drives: 12 of 14 for 124 yds, 2 TD, 0 Int. Brady led the offense to 2 TD in a span of 1:12 seconds.

 

Also, don't detract from the fact that NE forced that fumble. Yes, McKelvin should have taken a knee in the endzone, but he made the mistake of taking it out. The Patriots thrive off taking advantage of even small mistakes. They took advantage of the opportunity, got a ton of pressure on McKelvin while keeping him up and tearing out the ball. The Pats had as much to do with that turn over as the Bills.

 

At the end of the day, one of the greatest QBs to ever play the game is back and in form.

[Philrad71]

Wow, Im pretty disappointed in Buffalo. They had that game and let it slip right through their fingers, and of course now everybody PRAISES Tom Brady for his IMMACULATE return to the sport because he threw a 15 yard TD pass to win the game after the Bills fumbled the kickoff that would have given them the game ending possession.

 

I have been a Bills fan my entire life, so I am used to seeing endless blunders. We might as well marry Cleveland, Detroit and Cincinnati because we are one and the same!

 

^Seriously, we had the game won and failed on our own stupidity. Brady struggled as could be expected, but made the plays when it counted. You are right in that NE made us pay for our mistakes. Good teams figure out ways to win and bad teams will always figure out ways to lose.

 

Total deja-vu from the Dallas Monday night game two years ago, the Jets game last year, the four Super Bowl losses, etc, etc, etc....uggghhhh!

 

Yes, it totally sucks to be a Bills fan!!!!

[BeemerBoy]

^ & ^^ He obviously wasn't watching the Steelers game a few days earlier. Although, then again, maybe he was thinking, "Hey, if Hines Ward can make a foolish play and get bailed out, maybe I can too?"

 

^ Phil, it could be worse. You could be a Dolphins fan. Nah, I take that back. It's still worse to be a Bills fan. You're right.

[Satchboogie3]

Brady struggled as could be expected, but made the plays when it counted.

 

Whats incredible about it is, Brady struggled for the first 3 quarters of the game only to HIS standards, yet still managed to set a Patriot record for completions in a game (39), pass for almost 400 yards, complete 74% of his passes, throw 2 TDs, for a QB rating of 97.8. That is better than 90% of QBs BEST games.

[Satchboogie3]

^ & ^^ He obviously wasn't watching the Steelers game a few days earlier. Although, then again, maybe he was thinking, "Hey, if Hines Ward can make a foolish play and get bailed out, maybe I can too?"

 

^ Phil, it could be worse. You could be a Dolphins fan. Nah, I take that back. It's still worse to be a Bills fan. You're right.

 

Yeah. Losing 1 Superbowl while being undefeated was pretty damned awful, but I can't imagine losing 4 superbowls in a ROW!

[bigstevet07]

Brady struggled as could be expected, but made the plays when it counted.

 

Whats incredible about it is, Brady struggled for the first 3 quarters of the game only to HIS standards, yet still managed to set a Patriot record for completions in a game (39), pass for almost 400 yards, complete 74% of his passes, throw 2 TDs, for a QB rating of 97.8. That is better than 90% of QBs BEST games.

 

UM, I'm not a Patriots fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I can tell you that Brady does not own the record for completions in a game. That would be Drew Bledsoe with 45.

 

After missing an entire season to an injury, he comes out and shakes off the rust and returns to GOAT form in the matter of 1 game.

 

While Brady is a great QB, he is by no means the Greatest Of All Time either. I wouldn't even put him in my top 5 yet. I'm not saying he won't get there, but he's only been in the league what 8-9 years? He needs some more longevity to be considered. My top 5 would be (not necessarily in order other than Elway as tops)

 

Elway

Marino

Montana

Unitas

Favre

[BeemerBoy]

If Tom Brady is the "Greatest of all time," then somebody please tell Terry Bradshaw he has to share the title now. Seriously, Tom Brady is good. In fact, he's really good. But he's NOT anywhere near the greatest of all time.

 

He falls squarely into the "caretaker" category with the likes of Bradshaw, Bob Griese, and Phil Simms. Brady is one of those guys who has benefited from a great system, and a solid defense. Put him on a middle-of-the-pack team, and I don't think he's gonna be the difference maker. But surround him with a great team, and he manages them perfectly.

 

When you talk about "Greatest of all time," I tend to think of the guys who were literally difference makers on their own. Steve's list is pretty accurate to me, with Steve Young a very close sixth.

 

Also, Dan Fouts is TREMENDOUSLY underrated.

[bigstevet07]

I totally agree with your assesment on Brady. If I bring up its because of the system and people will lose their mind about it. To me he's very comparable to Kurt Warner. Warner is only great if the system fits his throwing style. See his stint with the Giants as proof.

 

Ah, I forgot about Fouts. He was freaking awesome. I don't think Jim Kelly gets enough credit either just because they lost those Super Bowls. He didn't give up 52 points. He didn't miss that FG.

[Satchboogie3]

I don't get where this "system QB" comes from. He made a career out of using average-below average receivers to the best of their ability. He finally gets a great group of WRs (Moss and Welker), which I might add just about EVERY great QB has had, and he goes and has the greatest single season EVER.

 

For those who don't want to put Brady in their Top 5 alltime, here is some food for thought:

 

Brady:

7 full seasons

199 TD, 87 INT (2.3:1 TD/INT), 63.1 Cmp%, 5.4 TD%, 2.3 INT%, 7.2 Y/A, 93.0 QB Rating

Season averages: 3,866 yds, 28.7 TD, 12.5 INT.

Record: 87-24 for 78% win

Playoffs: 233 yds/G, 1.53 TD/G, 0.71 INT/G, 62.5 Cmp %, 6.65 y/a, 88.0 QB rating

Playoff Record: 14-3, 3 SB wins, 2 SB MVPs, 82% win

 

Compare that to the "top 5" you picked:

Elway: 300 TD, 226 INT (1.33:1 TD/INT), 56.9 Cmp%, 4.1 TD%, 3.1 INT%, 7.1 Y/A, 79.9 QB Rating

Season averages: 3,565 yds, 20.8 TD, 15.7 INT

Playoffs: 225.6 yds/G, 1.23 TD/G, 0.95 INT/G, 54.5 Cmp %, 7.0 y/a, 79.7 QB Rating

Record: 148-82-1 for 64% win

Playoff Record: 14-7, 2 SB wins, 1 SB MVP, 66.6% win

 

Marino: 420 TD, 252 INT (1.66:1 TD/INT), 59.4 cmp %, 5.0 TD %, 3.0 INT %, 7.3 y/a, 86.4 QB rating

Season Average: 4,090 yds, 28 TD, 16.8 INT

Playoffs: 250 yds/G, 1.78 TD/G, 1.33 INT/G, 56 Cmp %, 6.56 y/a, 77.1 QB rating

Record: 147-93 for 61% win

Playoff Record: 8-10

 

Montana: 273 TD, 139 INT (1.96:1 TD/INT), 63.2 Cmp %, 5.1 TD %, 2.6 INT %, 7.5 y/a, 92.3 QB rating

Season Average: 3,956 yds, 26.6 TD, 13.5 INT

Playoffs: 251 y/g, 1.95 TD/G, 0.91 INT/G, 62.7 Cmp %, 7.86 y/a, 95.6 QB Rating

Record:117-47 for 71% win

Playoff Record: 16-7 for 70% win, 3 SB MVPs

 

Unitas: 290 TD, 253 INT (1.15:1 TD/INT), 54.6 Cmp %, 5.6 TD %, 4.9 INT %, 7.8 Y/A, 78.2 QB Rating

Season Average: 3,561 yds, 24.9 TD, 21.8 INT

Playoffs: 185 yds/G, 0.77 TD/G, 1.1 INT/G, 53.1 Cmp %, 7.36 Y/A, 68.9 QB Rating

Record:118-64-4 for a 63% win

Playoff Record: 6-2 for a 66% win

 

Favre: 465 TD, 310 INT ( 1.5:1 TD/INT), 61.6 Cmp %, 5.0 TD %, 3.3 INT %, 7.0 Y/A, 85.5 QB Rating

Season Averages: 3,880 yds, 27.7 TD, 18.4 INT

Playoffs: 241 yd/g, 1.77 TD/G, 1.27 INT/G, 60.7 Cmp %, 7.37 y/a, 85.2 QB Rating

Record: 169-100 for 63% win

Playoff Record: 12-10 for 55% win

 

 

So out of that list only Montana has had the better playoff career (going by record AND stats).

Brady has the HIGHEST TD to INT ratio EVER.

 

Also, you have to consider the offense built around the QB.

Warner had his best years with the Rams amazing offense and has been good/great (but not out of this world) since then.

Peyton had Harrison, Wayne and Dallas Clark for most of his career

Montana had Rice

Marino had Clayton and Duper

Favre had Sharpe and Driver

 

The Best receiver Brady had before 07 was Branch, who really wasn't all that great (never had a 1000 yard season or more than 5 TDs). Take a look at what happened to Patriot WRs out of NE. Welker wasn't used well, Moss had his best season here, Caldwell disappeared after we released him, Branch has been awful since leaving, etc. Moss and Welker show up and Brady has the best single season ever. I don't think that was a fluke...

[bigstevet07]

Like I said LONGEVITY. His TD average and rating is skewed because of his incredible season. He only threw for 28 TD's twice before that. Rating is the most overrated stat for a QB. Anyone that plays in a west coast style offense with short passes will benefit from it. And yes I don't think he will have a season like that again. It was truly one of a kind.

 

As for my top 5, you need to look at the era they played in also. They played 80's-90's when pounding the rock was the norm. The fact they put up those numbers in that era is an acheivement in itself. The fact I have Elway number 1 is he put up those numbers and took those teams to Super Bowls with absolutely no decent receivers until Shanahan came to town.

 

I noticed you threw Manning in there. I never mentioned him as I wouldn't have him in top 5 yet either. But he is much closer than Brady.

 

Again I'm not saying he isn't a great QB, but calling him the G.O.A.T. over QB's in the past is kind of an insult to the history of the game. Give him time, he may get there eventually.

[spaceace12]

Brady is up there along with P. Manning on one of the greatest QB's currently playing. Until he retires, I won't sayt eh best of all. Also Drew Brees is going to be real good also.

 

As for the system QB, look at last season. Matt Cassell wasn't good as Brady, but was pretty good with the system they have at NE.

 

I am just happy the way the Colts played Sunday, wasn't the best, but it was still quite good for being the first game of the regular season. They need to work on some things, but beating a divisional team is always a tough match. I think it is going to be a good season for them. Superbowl, possibly, but I will with hold that judgement until week 19.

[mcjaco]

Posting team records to substantiate your arguement is kind of pointless. Some of those team Unitas, Montana, etc. had average, at best, defenses that lost some of those games. Heck the Chiefs didn't have any really good WR's when Montana was there either.

[bigstevet07]

^ Are you trying to say Lake Dawson was not a good receiver?

[BeemerBoy]

^^^ Excellent point about Cassell and the system.

 

I don't get where this "system QB" comes from. He made a career out of using average-below average receivers to the best of their ability. He finally gets a great group of WRs (Moss and Welker), which I might add just about EVERY great QB has had, and he goes and has the greatest single season EVER.

 

For those who don't want to put Brady in their Top 5 alltime, here is some food for thought:

 

Brady:

7 full seasons

199 TD, 87 INT (2.3:1 TD/INT), 63.1 Cmp%, 5.4 TD%, 2.3 INT%, 7.2 Y/A, 93.0 QB Rating

Season averages: 3,866 yds, 28.7 TD, 12.5 INT.

Record: 87-24 for 78% win

Playoffs: 233 yds/G, 1.53 TD/G, 0.71 INT/G, 62.5 Cmp %, 6.65 y/a, 88.0 QB rating

Playoff Record: 14-3, 3 SB wins, 2 SB MVPs, 82% win

 

Compare that to the "top 5" you picked:

Elway: 300 TD, 226 INT (1.33:1 TD/INT), 56.9 Cmp%, 4.1 TD%, 3.1 INT%, 7.1 Y/A, 79.9 QB Rating

Season averages: 3,565 yds, 20.8 TD, 15.7 INT

Playoffs: 225.6 yds/G, 1.23 TD/G, 0.95 INT/G, 54.5 Cmp %, 7.0 y/a, 79.7 QB Rating

Record: 148-82-1 for 64% win

Playoff Record: 14-7, 2 SB wins, 1 SB MVP, 66.6% win

 

Marino: 420 TD, 252 INT (1.66:1 TD/INT), 59.4 cmp %, 5.0 TD %, 3.0 INT %, 7.3 y/a, 86.4 QB rating

Season Average: 4,090 yds, 28 TD, 16.8 INT

Playoffs: 250 yds/G, 1.78 TD/G, 1.33 INT/G, 56 Cmp %, 6.56 y/a, 77.1 QB rating

Record: 147-93 for 61% win

Playoff Record: 8-10

 

Montana: 273 TD, 139 INT (1.96:1 TD/INT), 63.2 Cmp %, 5.1 TD %, 2.6 INT %, 7.5 y/a, 92.3 QB rating

Season Average: 3,956 yds, 26.6 TD, 13.5 INT

Playoffs: 251 y/g, 1.95 TD/G, 0.91 INT/G, 62.7 Cmp %, 7.86 y/a, 95.6 QB Rating

Record:117-47 for 71% win

Playoff Record: 16-7 for 70% win, 3 SB MVPs

 

Unitas: 290 TD, 253 INT (1.15:1 TD/INT), 54.6 Cmp %, 5.6 TD %, 4.9 INT %, 7.8 Y/A, 78.2 QB Rating

Season Average: 3,561 yds, 24.9 TD, 21.8 INT

Playoffs: 185 yds/G, 0.77 TD/G, 1.1 INT/G, 53.1 Cmp %, 7.36 Y/A, 68.9 QB Rating

Record:118-64-4 for a 63% win

Playoff Record: 6-2 for a 66% win

 

Favre: 465 TD, 310 INT ( 1.5:1 TD/INT), 61.6 Cmp %, 5.0 TD %, 3.3 INT %, 7.0 Y/A, 85.5 QB Rating

Season Averages: 3,880 yds, 27.7 TD, 18.4 INT

Playoffs: 241 yd/g, 1.77 TD/G, 1.27 INT/G, 60.7 Cmp %, 7.37 y/a, 85.2 QB Rating

Record: 169-100 for 63% win

Playoff Record: 12-10 for 55% win

 

 

So out of that list only Montana has had the better playoff career (going by record AND stats).

Brady has the HIGHEST TD to INT ratio EVER.

 

Also, you have to consider the offense built around the QB.

Warner had his best years with the Rams amazing offense and has been good/great (but not out of this world) since then.

Peyton had Harrison, Wayne and Dallas Clark for most of his career

Montana had Rice

Marino had Clayton and Duper

Favre had Sharpe and Driver

 

The Best receiver Brady had before 07 was Branch, who really wasn't all that great (never had a 1000 yard season or more than 5 TDs). Take a look at what happened to Patriot WRs out of NE. Welker wasn't used well, Moss had his best season here, Caldwell disappeared after we released him, Branch has been awful since leaving, etc. Moss and Welker show up and Brady has the best single season ever. I don't think that was a fluke...

 

I think you just helped make our case with that last paragraph. Average players tend to look better in great systems, and when they leave, they are exposed.

 

Satch, one thing you need to take into consideration is that a couple of the people you're discussing this with have a few years on ya. Don't take that the wrong way though. I'm just pointing out that the 30+ year old guys on the board actually sat through the prime years of most of those quarterbacks that are listed by bigsteve07.

 

Sometimes statistical comparisons just don't tell the whole story. For instance, I have to plead ignorance on whether Johnny U really belongs there. Why? Because I never watched the man actually play. Sure, I've seen highlights, I've read stat sheets, and I've heard plenty of firsthand accounts of his greatness, but that last part is what's most crucial. In conjunction with the stat sheets, I value the opinions of knowledgeable fans who witnessed the era in which he played.

 

As for your argument about whether a "system" makes a difference, the truth is that Brady is actually very similar to Montana. There's no denying that. Besides the random long ball to Rice, Montana compiled stats by basically throwing under 20 yard passes.

 

He had a hugely underrated all-time back in Roger Craig, and on the other side of the ball, the defense was consistently rock solid. The difference with Montana is something that not many people can put a finger on. He just had that "special something." I don't believe Brady has that. I've actually got Montana over Elway, but just slightly.

 

My personal bias aside, I think Marino's the most interesting case of all of those listed. If you wanna compare what Marino had to play with compared to the others, it's no contest. Yes, there was Duper and Clayton, but what else? I challenge anyone to honestly name a defensive all-pro "top name" player on the Dolphins defense during Marino's prime years....including his only Super Bowl appearance (and do it without using Google).

 

On top of that, and most importantly, name any one of the Dolphins' 1000 yard rushers in Marino's first 13 seasons.

 

Realistically, Marino had the greatest offensive line ever. The man was hardly EVER sacked due to that and the legendary quick release. Now, if you plug him into a better "system," such as, oh, the Niners' in their dynasty years, or the Pats in theirs, it's hard to imagine him not winning at least several Super Bowls. And yet, still, he managed to put up unreal numbers.

 

So, in a nutshell, basically, I don't consider Brady to be top 5 material (yet), but I'm thinking top 15 as of now. One thing which can't be argued is that he has done his job with what he's been given.......except for a certain "imperfect season."

 

I think I'm just rambling now anyway. lol

[mcjaco]

^ Are you trying to say Lake Dawson was not a good receiver?

 

Not when he's surrounded by such awesome receivers as Willie Davis and JJ Birden!

[FeelTheFORCE]

He falls squarely into the "caretaker" category with the likes of Bradshaw, Bob Griese, and Phil Simms. Brady is one of those guys who has benefited from a great system, and a solid defense. Put him on a middle-of-the-pack team, and I don't think he's gonna be the difference maker. But surround him with a great team, and he manages them perfectly.

 

He HAD a "middle of the pack team" in 2001 and he WON THE SUPER BOWL. Look who he was throwing to, Troy Brown and David Patten. Not to mention other positions: Antowain Smith, Bobby Hamilton, Brandon Mitchell, Jermaine Wiggins, Tebucky Jones, etc. That's as "middle of the pack" (if not BELOW average) as you're going to get. Sure their defense was slightly above average, but nothing spectacular...nowhere near to a unit such as, say last years Steelers D.

 

If I could pick ANY quarterback of ALL TIME to lead my team during an attempted 4th quarter comeback drive, I would choose Tom Brady, hands down. That's saying a lot considering I'm a Steeler fan, and stereotypically, Steelers fans hate the Patriots.

[Satchboogie3]

I don't understand where this "Just the Defense" or "System QB" came from. First off, the defense was 1st in the league just once. In the 03-04 stretch it was one of the best in the league, but it was middle of the pack in 01-02 and it has been VERY suspect since 05.

 

Second, when did Brady ever have a great offense around him? "System" is a meaningless term. Everything is a system and obviously any good coach is going to build the "system" around the players or vice verse. Every QB is a system QB (unless the coach is an idiot). If anything, I'd argue that guys like Montana and Manning are/were even MORE of a "system" QB than Brady. They were put in a system to utilize their talent to the max where as Brady wasn't. Montana was giving a great offense (with great receivers). Manning was giving the same (Wayne, Harrison, Clark, James, Addai - holy CRAP!). It should be just the opposite. Brady should get MORE credit for putting together great seasons with receivers made of poo, not less.

 

All you have to do is look at 2006 to see that Belichick realized Brady needed something to work with. He had JAGS on that offense (35 yo Troy Brown, Reche "bugeyes" caldwell, Watson, Gabriel, Graham, Gafney, etc). Those are NOBODYS. Belichick did what most any other coach would do, get Brady some playmakers to throw to. He does and look what happens.

 

How can you say it is just a fluke that Brady has a ridiculous year when he finally gets great receivers? He put up good/great numbers with shitty receivers, so it only stands for reason to think that he will (and does) put up ridiculous numbers with good/great receivers.

 

I just don't get where the criticism comes from. The knock against Brady was always that he doesn't put up the stats (like Manning) each year and that his WRs were terrible. Up until 07 everyone only thought "Could Brady put up Manning like numbers with good WRs?". He answered that decisively in 07.

 

The other thing that I don't think you give much credit to is the era. You keep talking about how the other guys (Montana, Marino, etc) played when you mainly run the ball. I think you aren't looking at the right aspects. Those guys (Marino and Montana) played during an UNCAPPED era. The 49ers had a vastly superior team because they paid all the stars. Montana had a TON of play makers to work with on offense. Marino had an amazing O-line and 2 great receivers. Compared to Brady, who played during an Era that wasn't supposed to have dynasties, made the most with average receivers, winning 3 SuperBowls.

 

I honestly doesn't see how someone can argue that it was tougher to win (as a QB) in an uncapped ERA vs a capped one.

 

Really, though, I think the problem will always come down to this: People either give Belichick all the credit or Brady all the credit. No, let me correct that. When they talk about Brady, he is called a "system QB" and they say it is just all Belichick. When they talk about Belichick, they say he has just made a career from Brady. Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it to.

[Homeboy23]

Nobody here has said that Brady isn't a great QB, they have just said that he shouldn't be considered one of the best until a few more years. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

You can't compare a guy who only has a few years under his belt with the likes of Elway, Unitas, Montana, Young and Aikman who all had great careers. And I'm probably leaving out a couple of QBs.