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Cedar Point (CP) Discussion Thread

P. 2017: Top Thrill Dragster RETIRED!?!?!?

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^It's still the same type of coaster, an Intamin launched coaster. And besides, I wouldn't call two overbanked turns added to a top hat much more than a one trick pony.

 

^^Have you read anything over the past two pages? A coaster doesn't have to be new and different to be groundbreaking. Major height barriers ARE groundbreaking. As for some of your points:

-Magnum started the coaster wars with it being 200 feet. Without it amusement parks would not be where they are today. I'd call that groundbreaking.

-How can MF be the concept of Magnum if it is nothing like Magnum?

-Superman/Possessed sucks compared to Wicked Twister. It may not be as innovative as other coasters but it's definitely better than Possessed.

-Raptor WAS groundbreaking. Look at how much more massive it was. As I stated above, size constitutes something being groundbreaking

-Dragster took hydraulic technology to the next level. It doesn't get any more innovative than that.

 

Personally, I'd love to have a 4th Dimension but I know that will never happen however I wouldn't be surprised if CF took a closer look at X-Raptor at Gardaland once that ride opens.

Anything can happen.

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Have you read anything over the past two pages? A coaster doesn't have to be new and different to be groundbreaking. Major height barriers ARE groundbreaking.

 

Yes, I've read the past two to three pages prior to my registering here.

 

Magnum started the coaster wars with it being 200 feet. Without it amusement parks would not be where they are today. I'd call that groundbreaking.

 

If CP wasn't the first then someone else would have topped 200 feet eventually. Once we hit 200 feet it seemed the sky was the limit as it wasn't long before we were seeing rides 225 feet high (Desperado) and drops of near equal length (Steel Phantom).

 

How can MF be the concept of Magnum if it is nothing like Magnum?

 

And how is MF not like Magnum other than manufacturer and statistics? MF is Magnum without all the bunny hills and with more banked turns.

 

Superman/Possessed sucks compared to Wicked Twister. It may not be as innovative as other coasters but it's definitely better than Possessed.

 

You just agreed with me that WT is not innovative. It was more or less trying to one up CP's former competition with a similar ride.

 

Raptor WAS groundbreaking. Look at how much more massive it was. As I stated above, size constitutes something being groundbreaking.

 

You're focused on the size and not what makes the ride different or unique from rides of a similar nature. The cobra roll is what made Raptor unique when it was built.

 

Dragster took hydraulic technology to the next level. It doesn't get any more innovative than that.

 

Hydraulic technology is hydraulic technology no matter how it is used. Xcellerator still trumps Dragster. Since you want to refer to taking things to the next level, is Kingda Ka groundbreaking despite being a near clone of Dragster and how does Storm Runner fit into this equation since it was the first in the U.S. with inversions? Does it make the ride groundbreaking as well?

 

Hope I'm not trying to stir up ill-feelings being a newbie here.

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If CP wasn't the first then someone else would have topped 200 feet eventually. Once we hit 200 feet it seemed the sky was the limit as it wasn't long before we were seeing rides 225 feet high (Desperado) and drops of near equal length (Steel Phantom).

Yes it would of happened, but it would of taken much longer. Like you said "once we hit 200 feet". It could of been 5-10 years before a park decided to go 200+ feet had CP not done it.

 

And how is MF not like Magnum other than manufacturer and statistics? MF is Magnum without all the bunny hills and with more banked turns.

MF completely killed the old height record by 75 feet. The layouts are completely different and you said it yourself, "MF is Magnum without all the bunny hills and with more banked turns". That's the point. Magnum is airtime, MF is speed.

 

You just agreed with me that WT is not innovative. It was more or less trying to one up CP's former competition with a similar ride.

Read a little closer. I said not as innovative as other coasters. Oddly enough I never heard the two compared by anybody. I guess it wasn't much of a competition.

 

You're focused on the size and not what makes the ride different or unique from rides of a similar nature. The cobra roll is what made Raptor unique when it was built.

Fore the billionth time size makes a ride different and unique. Based on your statement, MF and Jr. Gemini are the same ride. They both go up, down, have turns, and are blue.

 

Hydraulic technology is hydraulic technology no matter how it is used. Xcellerator still trumps Dragster. Since you want to refer to taking things to the next level, is Kingda Ka groundbreaking despite being a near clone of Dragster and how does Storm Runner fit into this equation since it was the first in the U.S. with inversions? Does it make the ride groundbreaking as well?

I agree Storm Runner is innovative considering it added inversions. However Kingda Ka can NEVER be considered innovative. It's basically a TTD clone, just 36 feet taller and 8 mph faster. Those small of stats are not innovative.

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-Magnum started the coaster wars with it being 200 feet. Without it amusement parks would not be where they are today. I'd call that groundbreaking.

 

If I'm not mistaken, Japan's now-defunct Moonsault Scramble was the first "200-foot coaster". Sort of like how Superman The Escape was the first 400-footer. And Bandit at Yomiuriland (I believe) was also close to 200 feet. Dickie even admitted that's where he got the inspiration for Magnum from in an old interview that I don't care to find right now.

 

-How can MF be the concept of Magnum if it is nothing like Magnum?

 

Magnum has mostly hills, three tunnels and one turnaround. MF has 5 hills, several turns, 2 tunnels and a turnaround. They sound similar, no? I have been on both hundreds of times and yes they are two different ride experiences... but to the GP, they aren't that much different other than one being bigger.

 

-Superman/Possessed sucks compared to Wicked Twister. It may not be as innovative as other coasters but it's definitely better than Possessed.

 

I like that you present your opinion as a fact. "Definitely Better". Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but to come across so arrogantly that your opinion overrules Geauga Dog's is sort of lame. I personally think the single-end impulses are better than WT also. Does that make me an ignorant CP hater?

 

-Raptor WAS groundbreaking. Look at how much more massive it was. As I stated above, size constitutes something being groundbreaking

 

Again with your opinion as fact. Because YOU feel size = groundbreaking doesn't mean everyone else does. I agree with Geauga Dog. Batman was ground breaking as it was the original and nothing else was like it at the time.

 

-Dragster took hydraulic technology to the next level. It doesn't get any more innovative than that.

 

Agreed on the "next level" part. Too bad that next level involved sending shards of metal into riders faces and having the ride shut down for much of its debut season. It doesn't get much more innovative than that!

 

I said it before, we're all entitled to our own opinions. But when you present your opinion as fact, don't expect everyone to agree with you and take it so well. I have visited CP for 37 years now and I still like the place. I just don't think it's the ultimate park that many make it out to be.

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I wasn't exactly trying to start an argument worthy of PointBuzz, but my original point stands, and that's that B&M has nothing that CP is going to be interested in at this point. The only thing I could see CP getting of theirs in the foreseeable future is maybe the "4th dimension" style they're building with X-Raptor. Even then, that would be a long shot.

 

Ground-breaking or not, most of CP's coasters since Magnum have introduced something (an element, record, lift style, etc.) that had never been seen or done before. And that was my other point. You can argue semantics and split hairs all you want, but that one point remains fact.

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You guys are missing a point here: it's always about budget with Cedar Fair. Intamin usually bids cheaper than the average B&M coaster. Just look at the cost of both Intimidators for price comparisons. B&M's are known for their reliability (if they can keep their gearboxes in check), but an Intamin ride can push boundaries with a cheaper price tag. A balanced park would have both, if you ask me.

 

So even if CP's new ride turns out to be from someone other than Intamin, keep in mind that, for coasters anyway, they usually beat out the prices of many other manufacturers. (Also likely the reason Hersheypark has two Intamins and one B&M. If the new ride's an Intamin, you'll know why.)

 

While that's definitely true, I'd be willing to bet Cedar Fair wouldn't even bat an eye if it came to spending $30-$40 million for their "baby," Cedar Point. But like I said, even building a giant version of anything they have to offer really wouldn't stand out tremendously and be anything terribly unique, in my opinion, so it wouldn't be worth it.

 

Dragster took hydraulic technology to the next level. It doesn't get any more innovative than that.

 

Hydraulic technology is hydraulic technology no matter how it is used. Xcellerator still trumps Dragster.

 

I disagree. That's like saying video games are video games, so a Playstation 2 is the same as a Playstation 3. Saying "Xcellerator trumps Dragster" is a matter of opinion on the quality of the ride. In my opinion, Xcellerator is fun, but Dragster is much more of a thrill (yes I know Xcelerator's launch is slightly more intense, technically), and a ride people are definitely going to go out of their way for (the basis for this entire debate).

 

 

 

I think the word "groundbreaking" needs to be thrown out of this debate. It can be used in so many different contexts that everyone seems to be missing each other's points and the same things are getting repeated over and over. The whole original argument was the fact that Cedar Point builds coasters that will cause people to go out of their way for, and are found NO WHERE ELSE at the time they open (NOT whether they are good coasters or not), which is true for most (if not all) of their coasters, or they wouldn't be Cedar Fair's flagship park and a resort destination for people all over the world. There really is no denying that, whether someone likes Cedar Point or not.

 

 

 

EDIT: ^ Steve said it very well. ^

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Magnum has mostly hills, three tunnels and one turnaround. MF has 5 hills, several turns, 2 tunnels and a turnaround. They sound similar, no? I have been on both hundreds of times and yes they are two different ride experiences... but to the GP, they aren't that much different other than one being bigger.

Most people notice the difference and the different ride experiences.

 

I like that you present your opinion as a fact. "Definitely Better". Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but to come across so arrogantly that your opinion overrules Geauga Dog's is sort of lame. I personally think the single-end impulses are better than WT also. Does that make me an ignorant CP hater?

That didn't quite come out the way I had wanted it to. Yes everyone is entitled to there opinions but of the people that I have talked to, hate the straight back towers as well (mostly because of the holding brake making you fall into the restraint quite hard). Also I don't think I would want to ride a "single-end impulse". That might be kind of dangerous, right out of RCT .

 

Again with your opinion as fact. Because YOU feel size = groundbreaking doesn't mean everyone else does. I agree with Geauga Dog. Batman was ground breaking as it was the original and nothing else was like it at the time.

If you would read back, most everyone feels the same way as me. Raptor was groundbreaking. However Batman was definitely groundbreaking, and and I agree definitely more so than Raptor.

 

Agreed on the "next level" part. Too bad that next level involved sending shards of metal into riders faces and having the ride shut down for much of its debut season. It doesn't get much more innovative than that!

Things happen. If no companies took risks, coasters would be boring.

 

But when you present your opinion as fact, don't expect everyone to agree with you and take it so well.

For one, most everyone is agreeing with me, and second, I mis-worded one sentence.

 

EDIT: ^^Where were you with that statement two hours ago?

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I wasn't exactly trying to start an argument worthy of PointBuzz, but my original point stands, and that's that B&M has nothing that CP is going to be interested in at this point. The only thing I could see CP getting of theirs in the foreseeable future is maybe the "4th dimension" style they're building with X-Raptor. Even then, that would be a long shot.

 

Ground-breaking or not, most of CP's coasters since Magnum have introduced something (an element, record, lift style, etc.) that had never been seen or done before. And that was my other point. You can argue semantics and split hairs all you want, but that one point remains fact.

 

Well CP could use a flyer & or floorless,but could get the former from vekoma just as easily while the latter would have to come from B&M as they're the only ones producing the design....the thing is that the new ride for 2011 is not even a coaster so this whole argument over groundbreaking/innovative coaster technology is in a way a mute point.

 

I believe that CP is going in a different direction by adding these flats to their lineup to compliment their coasters,after all a good park is more than just coasters & should include a decent variety of thrilling flats as well.

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Magnum has mostly hills, three tunnels and one turnaround. MF has 5 hills, several turns, 2 tunnels and a turnaround. They sound similar, no? I have been on both hundreds of times and yes they are two different ride experiences... but to the GP, they aren't that much different other than one being bigger.

 

Sorry to bring this back up...but you seriously think the GP is that stupid? Wow.

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I just came in on the end of this conversation, I could not help to notice the comments about the general public. I am not for sure who said the general public do not know the difference between coasters, but I for one think that is rude and disrespectful to everyone on here. My family could be the general public you are talking about as well as other TPR members families. You should choose your words wisely.

 

There might be a small percentage of the general public that do not know the difference, but that could be because they have not rode all of the rides to compare them other then the stats on paper. Every person I have talked to that is not a coaster enthusiast, know the difference between the rides after the ride them. They actually know the difference between a cobra roll and batwing element, although they do not call it that, they do notice the difference.

 

I just wanted to get that out Now can we discuss the new flat ride they are getting, I for one would like to know more about that.

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Im 100% with CPMaverick in this discussion. You'll never see them build the exact same coaster as another park such as , Scream at Magic Mountain, TItan at SFOT, or Kingda Ka at GADV. WIth that being said who cares? Any new coaster is a good thing.

Anyway, you could make the same claims for any park.

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I just came in on the end of this conversation, I could not help to notice the comments about the general public. I am not for sure who said the general public do not know the difference between coasters, but I for one think that is rude and disrespectful to everyone on here. My family could be the general public you are talking about as well as other TPR members families. You should choose your words wisely.

 

There might be a small percentage of the general public that do not know the difference, but that could be because they have not rode all of the rides to compare them other then the stats on paper. Every person I have talked to that is not a coaster enthusiast, know the difference between the rides after the ride them. They actually know the difference between a cobra roll and batwing element, although they do not call it that, they do notice the difference.

I cannot agree more and that's one of the points I was trying to get across. Most of the GP people I talk to obviously don't know as much about the subject as us but they are not by any means stupid. In all the years I have been going to Cedar Point, I can only think of a handful of times where I really thought someone was completely clueless on the subject.

 

One funny question I got asked was "How do I get to Magnum Force?" So I asked "What color is it?" to try and see if its MF or Magnum. He replies "Green." Turns out he was looking for Wicked Twister .

 

^^My visits to CP would cease forever if they took out Magnum for a B&M hyper. Maybe down the road when the ride has sunk completely into the soft beach sand, I'll understand if they remove it. But I would tie myself to the first drop if they ever tried to tear it out for any other reason.

I'm right there with you.

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I just came in on the end of this conversation, I could not help to notice the comments about the general public. I am not for sure who said the general public do not know the difference between coasters, but I for one think that is rude and disrespectful to everyone on here. My family could be the general public you are talking about as well as other TPR members families. You should choose your words wisely.

 

There might be a small percentage of the general public that do not know the difference, but that could be because they have not rode all of the rides to compare them other then the stats on paper. Every person I have talked to that is not a coaster enthusiast, know the difference between the rides after the ride them. They actually know the difference between a cobra roll and batwing element, although they do not call it that, they do notice the difference.

 

I just wanted to get that out Now can we discuss the new flat ride they are getting, I for one would like to know more about that.

 

Exactly. My dad likes roller coasters, but just because he's not an enthusiast means he's a complete idiot who can't tell the difference between Magnum and Millennium? I don't think so.

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The general public as a whole is fairly dumb, and that applies to a lot of things in life, not just parks and coasters. For example, take a drive down the road sometime and observe the behavior of fellow drivers. You'll be amazed at how few people actually know things like who has the right-away, when you can turn right on red, how to use a turn signal (big one there), and driving etiquette in general.

 

Why are you guys getting so defensive about a GENERAL statement that CLEARLY wasn't singling anyone out? Go to SFMM, the general public still thinks Terminator is Psyclone. And do I have to even mention the guy that called 911 on Harry Potter at Universal?

Edited by FeelTheFORCE
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I would like to say the GP has some sort of clue about coasters, but out of some of the experiences I've had I cannot do that. At Disney World in Magic Kingdom someone was looking for Expedition Everest (which is at Animal Kingdom!) and actually meant Big Thunder Mountain Railroad. Also at Disney World in Magic Kingdom someone was looking for Rock 'n' Roller Coaster (which is at HW Studios!) and actually meant Space Mountain. I could go on and on about the stories I have had with the confused GP in amusement/theme parks, but seriously, not everyone knows everything about coasters... Most of us do not know everything about something as random as boats do we?!?! It is the same thing...

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The general public as a whole is fairly dumb, and that applies to a lot of things in life, not just parks and coasters. For example, take a drive down the road sometime and observe the behavior of fellow drivers. You'll be amazed at how few people actually know things like who has the right-away, when you can turn right on red, how to use a turn signal (big one there), and driving etiquette in general.

 

Why are you guys getting so defensive about a GENERAL statement that CLEARLY wasn't singling anyone out? Go to SFMM, the general public still thinks Terminator is Psyclone. And do I have to even mention the guy that called 911 on Harry Potter at Universal?

 

First of all, the majority of those people that get rides mixed up, only visit the parks maybe once every 5 years or longer. Of course they are going to get things mixed up. They probably associated the location with the ride from their last visit to the park, but I am sure once they got there, they realized it was not psyclone.

 

I have always been told that "you should know a little bit about everything, or at least enough to get your foot in the door. One of my Captains in the Navy all ways told us that. I think that philosophy is good to live by.

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