Valleyfair (VF) Discussion Thread

[RCF]

Not my homepark so I don't care what they get so not fixed

Honestly not sure why the chain suddenly thinks VF is worth investing in

That was extremely rude... You don't know what they are getting so it is fixed, but you don't care because it's not your home park and that is very ignorant. Just because you don't go to the park doesn't mean no one does and that is why Cedar Fair is investing in this place.

[garyman6]

Not my homepark so I don't care what they get so not fixed

Honestly not sure why the chain suddenly thinks VF is worth investing in

 

Valleyfair has the longest history with Cedar Fair. It was their first park purchase after decided to expand. The name Cedar Fair comes from Cedar Point and Valleyfair

I believe that Cedar Fair is finally seeing the market potential here and has decided it's time to tap into that market. We have the same market size as Canada's Wonderland. Our state fair just ended it's 12 day run and topped 1.8 million visitors. That is second in the nation only to Texas whick I believe attracts about 2 million visitors during its run. And don't say it won't work here cause it's in a northern climate. That's a very poor answer cause 3 out of 4 of Cedar Fairs most attented parks are in similar climates and with very similar operating seasons. Knott's Berry Farm is the only park that operates year around.

So next time you want to make a rude statement, why don't you base it on facts and not just because its Valleyfair! Thank you very much!!!!

[CaptainUnknown]

If my facts are correct, Cedar Fair has the Dinos alive lease until 2018 or 2019. When they leave their respective parks, I think that something Dino-themed should take their place. It makes sense financially: They already have a gift shop built with some Dinosaur merchandise. Of course, the attraction would be different for each park. My thoughts about replacements:

Valleyfair: family launch coaster, probably Mack

Worlds of Fun: Same as Valleyfair

King's Island: GCI wooden

Cedar Point: either a PolarCoaster, Intamin Mega-lite, or GCI wooden

Canada's Wonderland: B&M wing coaster

Carowinds: GCI wooden

King's Dominion: Hyper coaster, probably Intamin

Dorney Park: this one's been rumored already GCI wooden

Again this is all speculation and fantasy on my part. Feel free to comment your thoughts.

[CaliforniaPinto]

Not my homepark so I don't care what they get so not fixed

Honestly not sure why the chain suddenly thinks VF is worth investing in

That was extremely rude... You don't know what they are getting so it is fixed, but you don't care because it's not your home park and that is very ignorant. Just because you don't go to the park doesn't mean no one does and that is why Cedar Fair is investing in this place.

 

Woah. I never said I didn't visit the park. Don't read things into other people's posts, that is just as rude.

Next, you would have to be pulling an ostrich if you think that up until the announcement that the chain was going to finally invest major money in the park that it (VF) was being treated like anything other than the red-headed stepchild of the park.

 

 

Valleyfair has the longest history with Cedar Fair. It was their first park purchase after decided to expand. The name Cedar Fair comes from Cedar Point and Valleyfair

I believe that Cedar Fair is finally seeing the market potential here and has decided it's time to tap into that market. We have the same market size as Canada's Wonderland. Our state fair just ended it's 12 day run and topped 1.8 million visitors. That is second in the nation only to Texas whick I believe attracts about 2 million visitors during its run. And don't say it won't work here cause it's in a northern climate. That's a very poor answer cause 3 out of 4 of Cedar Fairs most attented parks are in similar climates and with very similar operating seasons. Knott's Berry Farm is the only park that operates year around.

So next time you want to make a rude statement, why don't you base it on facts and not just because its Valleyfair! Thank you very much!!!!

 

I'm sorry, but MSP didn't start being a larger metro area all of a sudden. It has always been good sized, I just don't see why all of a sudden they think that they will be able to milk it for more patrons and money when the metro area doesn't really support the park like it should already.

 

Next I almost guarantee that if they (Cedar Point) had had the choice to get Kings Island instead of Valleyfair when they wanted to start expanding it wouldn't have been a competition. Yes, Valleyfair is the original of the Legacy Parks, but as I mentioned above it has been the red-headed step child of the chain with regards to expansions. Also market size doesn't seem to matter up there as they have not supported VF very well. Adding a coaster might give a little boost, but it is just not hardwired into the northerners to go to VF and that's a cultural problem NOT a "the park isn't big enough" problem.

 

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Finally before calling out someone as being "rude" - make sure you don't respond with a post that is as equally "rude".

Just because someone has a different opinion as yours doesn't constitute it as being "rude".

[gerstlaueringvar]

If and when VF gets a new coaster it will be a B&M. The park lacks a signature ride and really only a B&M is going to fill that void.

Signature of kiddie friendly?

[VF15]

If and when VF gets a new coaster it will be a B&M. The park lacks a signature ride and really only a B&M is going to fill that void.

I think that Wild Thing would probably be considered Valleyfair's signature ride. Even though it's not an amazing hypercoaster, it's still the coaster that the park is known best for. Even after VF gets a B&M one of these days, Wild Thing will probably remain as Valleyfair's signature ride.

[Diamondbacker27]

Not my homepark so I don't care what they get so not fixed

Honestly not sure why the chain suddenly thinks VF is worth investing in

That was extremely rude... You don't know what they are getting so it is fixed, but you don't care because it's not your home park and that is very ignorant. Just because you don't go to the park doesn't mean no one does and that is why Cedar Fair is investing in this place.

 

Woah. I never said I didn't visit the park. Don't read things into other people's posts, that is just as rude.

Next, you would have to be pulling an ostrich if you think that up until the announcement that the chain was going to finally invest major money in the park that it (VF) was being treated like anything other than the red-headed stepchild of the park.

 

 

Valleyfair has the longest history with Cedar Fair. It was their first park purchase after decided to expand. The name Cedar Fair comes from Cedar Point and Valleyfair

I believe that Cedar Fair is finally seeing the market potential here and has decided it's time to tap into that market. We have the same market size as Canada's Wonderland. Our state fair just ended it's 12 day run and topped 1.8 million visitors. That is second in the nation only to Texas whick I believe attracts about 2 million visitors during its run. And don't say it won't work here cause it's in a northern climate. That's a very poor answer cause 3 out of 4 of Cedar Fairs most attented parks are in similar climates and with very similar operating seasons. Knott's Berry Farm is the only park that operates year around.

So next time you want to make a rude statement, why don't you base it on facts and not just because its Valleyfair! Thank you very much!!!!

 

I'm sorry, but MSP didn't start being a larger metro area all of a sudden. It has always been good sized, I just don't see why all of a sudden they think that they will be able to milk it for more patrons and money when the metro area doesn't really support the park like it should already.

 

Next I almost guarantee that if they (Cedar Point) had had the choice to get Kings Island instead of Valleyfair when they wanted to start expanding it wouldn't have been a competition. Yes, Valleyfair is the original of the Legacy Parks, but as I mentioned above it has been the red-headed step child of the chain with regards to expansions. Also market size doesn't seem to matter up there as they have not supported VF very well. Adding a coaster might give a little boost, but it is just not hardwired into the northerners to go to VF and that's a cultural problem NOT a "the park isn't big enough" problem.

 

=====

 

Finally before calling out someone as being "rude" - make sure you don't respond with a post that is as equally "rude".

Just because someone has a different opinion as yours doesn't constitute it as being "rude".

There post wasn't really rude, yours was IMO. You said "It's not my home park so I don't care what they get fixed." Just because it's not your home park, doesn't mean it's not others. I'm sure they would like a park like Kings Island, Cedar Point, or Canada's Wonderland.

[Coasterguy21]

Valleyfair has the longest history with Cedar Fair. It was their first park purchase after decided to expand. The name Cedar Fair comes from Cedar Point and Valleyfair

I believe that Cedar Fair is finally seeing the market potential here and has decided it's time to tap into that market. We have the same market size as Canada's Wonderland. Our state fair just ended it's 12 day run and topped 1.8 million visitors. That is second in the nation only to Texas whick I believe attracts about 2 million visitors during its run. And don't say it won't work here cause it's in a northern climate. That's a very poor answer cause 3 out of 4 of Cedar Fairs most attented parks are in similar climates and with very similar operating seasons. Knott's Berry Farm is the only park that operates year around.

So next time you want to make a rude statement, why don't you base it on facts and not just because its Valleyfair! Thank you very much!!!!

 

Market size and attendance figures are way different. Valleyfair may be in a market size of 9 million (which, is absolutely true, its the same size as the market for Canada's Wonderland). However, Valleyfair (along with Worlds of Fun) only pull in around 1 million visitors a year, far less than the 3 million at CW.

 

Basing on facts also doesn't mean basing on history. Truth be told, yes, Valleyfair was the first park acquired to create Cedar Fair. However, when the company was in debt after the Paramount acquisition, it was one of the first parks they tried to sell (along with Worlds of Fun & California's Great America). Profit margin, Adjusted EBITDA and lots of other factors factor in to feeling the need to sell a park. Thankfully, it didn't sell (I didn't want any of them to but I understood why. Was extremely happy when the Apollo merger didn't go through and they announced they wouldn't sell anything). Not trying to be rude here, but this just proves that the history card can't be played because the park could've become an ex-Cedar Fair park just a few years back.

 

Read through some posts and obviously saw a lot of fanboy/its my local park posts. Understandable and I don't usually have a problem with this. But the park needs to operate as a business. They know what to do. If a B&M isn't a part of that equation, then its not. If it is, then it is.

[garyman6]

Minnesotan's are a different kind of breed. They will show up if they feel it is worth their time and money. I am fully aware of all the arguments about how Valleyfair is viewed in the eye's of Cedar Fair. But you need to remember, Cedar Fair has a new sheriff in town with Matt Oiumet and I believe he sees the potential for VF. Why would he have made VF one of three major growth parks if he didn't? I mentioned our state fair. The reason it's so popular is that it has a lot to offer. There are many other states with a much higher population but the Minnesota state fair is second only to Texas in attendance and not by much. I really believe that if Cedar Fair puts some major investment in VF the attendance numbers will explode. Another example is MOA. Do you know that 40 million people enter that mall every year. The vast majority are locals! It's because its worth the time and money to go there. Another example is that Minnesota has the highest per capita of golfers in the nation. Why?, cause after a long winter people want to get out of the house and do things. Bottom line is this. If Cedar Fair had been investing in VF like many of it's other parks, we would be seeing the 1.5 to 2.5 million visitor mark like the other major parks in the chain.

 

O.K. on to more important topics. Is today the day for our announcement? Let's hope so!

[RCjunkie]

Honestly not sure why the chain suddenly thinks VF is worth investing in

 

And this is why your not the CEO of Cedar Fair. This market/park is under served. VF did not pass a million visitors until AFTER adding Wild Thing (that happened the year it was added to the park). If the park had more quality rides like King's Island or King's Dominion who knows how high attendance could go. If you don't build it they will not come. CF has treated the park like a red headed step child in terms of investment so how do you expect to grow attendance? You have to spend money to make money and now they are going to try that and see if it comes to fruition. CEO Quimet sees that VF (along with CGA and Carowinds) were a little neglected during the Kinzel era when he would use the revenue from the smaller parks to feed and grow the 'big dogs' of the chain like KI, CP and CW. My best guess is it will pay off for all the 3 parks CF has designated as 'growth parks which will be rewarded with greater attendance and revenue'. We shall see over the next few years, only time will tell.

[RCjunkie]

I believe that Cedar Fair is finally seeing the market potential here and has decided it's time to tap into that market. We have the same market size as Canada's Wonderland. Our state fair just ended it's 12 day run and topped 1.8 million visitors. That is second in the nation only to Texas whick I believe attracts about 2 million visitors during its run. And don't say it won't work here cause it's in a northern climate. That's a very poor answer cause 3 out of 4 of Cedar Fairs most attented parks are in similar climates and with very similar operating seasons.

 

And the Texas State Fair does it over 24 days vs. the 11 days for the Minnesota State Fair. The market is here, VF just needs to give the locals a reason to come out to the park. After adding Camp Snoopy and Route 76 in the last 3 years crowds have definitely increased (when the park is not flooded. ) . Imagine what an up to date water park or new signature coaster could do.

[Knexrule11]

And the Texas State Fair does it over 24 days vs. the 11 days for the Minnesota State Fair. The market is here, VF just needs to give the locals a reason to come out to the park. After adding Camp Snoopy and Route 76 in the last 3 years crowds have definitely increased (when the park is not flooded. ) . Imagine what an up to date water park or new signature coaster could do.

I totally agree with this. I have noticed that Valleyfair has been getting significantly more busy in the last couple years. I think VF knows what they have to do to draw in more people, although that may not be a coaster in 2015, or even 2016, they are going to keep adding stuff that is in favor of the growth of the park and satisfying its customers. I can't even imagine how many more people I know would go to the park if we got a new slide tower with "super scary" slides. I think a waterpark upgrade for next year would be a very smart move on Valleyfair's part.

[RCjunkie]

I was just thinking about this: How would you guys feel if Valleyfair got a Chance Rides Hyper GT-X coaster? . Also, Valleyfair. Needs. A. Coaster. With. Inversions. Oh, did I mention that VF needs a coaster with inversions?

 

The reviews by coaster enthusiasts have been great and I like air time so of course I would like VF to get one. It could replace Corkscrew, an old Arrow for a new Chance (Morgan/Arrow). I am just jaded that VF already has two Arrow/Chance Morgan coasters in the park. But if they added a new Chance ride and replaced CS with it or added a ride which brought NEW trains to WT or a re-designed turn around for WT in addition (I know...dreaming here) then I would welcome Chance to the park again. But like you said, this park needs new inversions after 34 years so I am hoping for something else first. But as VF fans know, beggars can't be choosers.

[RCjunkie]

Basing on facts also doesn't mean basing on history. Truth be told, yes, Valleyfair was the first park acquired to create Cedar Fair. However, when the company was in debt after the Paramount acquisition, it was one of the first parks they tried to sell (along with Worlds of Fun & California's Great America). Profit margin, Adjusted EBITDA and lots of other factors factor in to feeling the need to sell a park. Thankfully, it didn't sell (I didn't want any of them to but I understood why. Was extremely happy when the Apollo merger didn't go through and they announced they wouldn't sell anything). Not trying to be rude here, but this just proves that the history card can't be played because the park could've become an ex-Cedar Fair park just a few years back.

 

I am also glad the Apollo merger did not go through and that VF ended up staying with CF over Six Flags but at the time I was actually hoping for Herschend would have picked up VF. I just thought at the time they would have treated the park with better investment and adding a local flavor like they do with their parks. But now that it looks (at least CF is saying) like CF is going to put some money into the park over the next 3-5 years and I am happy they stayed with CF and we will see. The announcement of the water park expansion and how big it is will tell us how serious CF really is. Obviously CF is really serious now about Carowinds, love that new entrance too.

[CaliforniaPinto]

Not my homepark so I don't care what they get so not fixed

Honestly not sure why the chain suddenly thinks VF is worth investing in

 

Finally before calling out someone as being "rude" - make sure you don't respond with a post that is as equally "rude".

Just because someone has a different opinion as yours doesn't constitute it as being "rude".

There post wasn't really rude, yours was IMO. You said "It's not my home park so I don't care what they get fixed." Just because it's not your home park, doesn't mean it's not others. I'm sure they would like a park like Kings Island, Cedar Point, or Canada's Wonderland.

 

OR you could see what the post was replying to and stop piling on.

Someone "fixed that for you" on one of prior posts. I replied with what I did because the post didn't need fixing because VF is not my homepark.

 

OMG. So CP wasn't being rude and y'all took him out of context and therefore were the rude ones?

Yep looks to be the case.

[DJeXeL]

[Lightning9SX]

^^I didn't find what you said rude at all, sometimes the truth hurts. I have no idea where the 9 million people number comes from. I do know from actual population stats that the Toronto Metro area has as many people as the entire State of Minnesota(5.5 million). I don't know how anyone can consider these two areas similar. To me it's more like comparing a baseball to a basketball.

[RCF]

Reason why I stopped when he said I was the one being rude. If someone else sees something other than what your saying no matter what, it's the same affect saying it to a wall.

 

 

 

I just think Cedar Fair will add something new and amazing to Valleyfair! as the place has huge potential for a big ride.

[RCjunkie]

^^I didn't find what you said rude at all, sometimes the truth hurts. I have no idea where the 9 million people number comes from. I do know from actual population stats that the Toronto Metro area has as many people as the entire State of Minnesota(5.5 million). I don't know how anyone can consider these two areas similar. To me it's more like comparing a baseball to a basketball.

 

I didn't find it rude either, just his opinion and it was not vicious or anything. I just didn't agree with it at all. The 9 million comes from CF and the research they did on this market. The market included South Dakota, North Dakota, Iowa and Western Wisconsin which they could draw visitors from due to distance and none of those area's having a park as big as VF and what it has to offer. Like you said, Minnesota has about 5.5 million in people in the state with 2.75 to 3 million in the Twin Cities area including all the suburbs. According to garyman6 when he walked with GM Dave Frazier this year he referenced the 9 million people also when comparing the Twin Cities (VF) to Cincinnati (KI) and said they are looking at KI and what they do and what VF could do to approach their attendance considering they have a similar market size. (HINT: Get some good rides like KI ) He used that number which (according to CF research) is about the same size market as Cincinnati area which is 2.2 million with a wider market of 9 million due to northern Kentucky and the southern half of Ohio. We will find out if their research is right. I personally think it is close to right. When I visit KI in Mason, see Cincinnati and the surrounding suburbs and what they have to draw from I don't see a big difference. I think with the right attractions VF should be able to draw at least half the attendance KI does and maybe a little more than half. CF seems to think the same but we have to see how much $$$ they are going to invest over the next 5 years, until then it is just talk.

[VF15]

garyman6 and RCjunkie bring up a lot of valid points. Valleyfair has a lot of untapped potential in the population market. Of course, not all 9 million people in VF's market are going to come because some people can't afford it, and others just aren't interested in amusement parks, but if they add a good-looking steel inverting coaster, that could probably up the annual attendance total to 1.5 million, or maybe even 2 million.

 

I've heard a lot of other people say that we won't be getting a B&M or a good-quality steel coaster because the park is too small, but I feel that these people are underestimating the size of Valleyfair. Yeah, it certainly isn't a "big" park, but considering the size of a lot of other places out there, VF isn't as small as many make it out to be.

[Lightning9SX]

OK, I get what they are doing. There are two ways to look at it. One way(CF and their 9 million number) is the areas where you may draw visits from. This is a very large area and includes people that only visit when there is a new attraction or once every few years. Then there is local area, the area where you draw most of your visits from. These people make yearly visits, a lot of them make multiple visits per year. This is the foundation that maintains attendance numbers. The second way is how I look at it.

 

If CF believes that VF can support a B&M Invert and it's a good investment, they will do it. Will there be an attendance spike the year they install a new coaster, probably. Will it maintain that attendance level the following years? That's the question.

[madsecar]

Any day now Valleyfair!

[kongker]

If CF believes that VF can support a B&M Invert and it's a good investment, they will do it. Will there be an attendance spike the year they install a new coaster, probably. Will it maintain that attendance level the following years? That's the question.

 

Please excuse if this has been addressed before:

What if the hypothetical B&M Invert was a "pre-owned" transplant from a Cedar Fair sister park? Namely Silver Bullet at KBF. The area where Antique Autos currently resides might work perfectly. It could be placed in a similar orientation to it's present West Coast layout or they could flip it and place the cobra roll towards High Roller's turnaround. In theory this installment and a refreshed entrance could justify the expense at a much lower cost than a brand new coaster.

VF Entrance/Antique Autos

KBF Silver Bullet (Orientation 1)

KBF Silver Bullet (Orientation 2)

[Knexrule11]

Please excuse if this has been addressed before:

What if the hypothetical B&M Invert was a "pre-owned" transplant from a Cedar Fair sister park? Namely Silver Bullet at KBF. The area where Antique Autos currently resides might work perfectly. It could be placed in a similar orientation to it's present West Coast layout or they could flip it and place the cobra roll towards High Roller's turnaround. In theory this installment and a refreshed entrance could justify the expense at a much lower cost than a brand new coaster.

Seeing that you are located in LA, you don't like Silver Bullet? Or just suggesting it for the kicks? Its a good idea, but sadly that satellite imagery is out of date. The Antique Autos were removed after the 2012 season and Dino's were put in their place (Dino's are in the area you showed, and the picnic area on the other side of High Roller's turn around). Antique Auto's were re-added for the 2014 season replacing the Go-Karts. I think our Dino's contract is done around 2018, so I doubt we'll be getting anything in that location anytime soon :-/

[kongker]

Seeing that you are located in LA, you don't like Silver Bullet? Or just suggesting it for the kicks? Its a good idea, but sadly that satellite imagery is out of date. The Antique Autos were removed after the 2012 season and Dino's were put in their place (Dino's are in the area you showed, and the picnic area on the other side of High Roller's turn around). Antique Auto's were re-added for the 2014 season replacing the Go-Karts. I think our Dino's contract is done around 2018, so I doubt we'll be getting anything in that location anytime soon :-/

 

I love Silver Bullet. Definitely a great ride & I always ride twice. It would be a major loss for Knott's but I'm simply speculating. Hopefully VF will indeed receive another great coaster in the near future. Didn't know about the Autos/Dinos swap, thanks for the heads up