Inversions vs. Angle of Descent

[JDo217]

So Steel Hawg's first drop is 120 degrees and rcdb classifies it as an inversion (3 inversions listed but I can only see 2). Does that mean the first drop isn't really classified as a drop?

 

I'm just curious because I went to Hersheypark the other day and the tram driver was saying how Fahrenheit has the steepest drop of any roller coaster in the United States. I'm guessing they're just mistaken...

[Bolliger&Mabillard]

Here's my .02 on the matter,

 

An inversion is classified as track being paralel with the ground in an upside manner, completely inverting the train that travels said track. There are of course some inversions that are debatable, most notably the incline loop on most B&M stand-up rides.

 

What it all comes down to is what the park classifies it as. According to Knott's Berry Farm, Silver Bullet has 6 1/2 inversions. The drop on Steel Hawg is no where near an inversion, but park management gets to make that call when they make a press release.

[Loefet]

The drop on Steel Hawg is more of a Inversion then a drop, since the car is braked when it goes over the top, and not a true drop.

 

If it were to be counted as a drop, then so should the ones on Screaming Squirls and the Cool'n'Fresh.

 

An inversion could be counted as a piece of track that is more for the enjoyment for the rider then what's needed to handle the forces, an example of this is the Stengeldive on Goliath - WW.

[Astat]

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe Steel Hawg was announced as having 3 "inversions" in the press release, which is probably what RCDB is going by. Duane does a good job and all, but there's a couple things on there that are still outdated. RCDB only lists Eejanaika as having 2 inversions, with no mention of the full-full, for example. I'm fairly sure that by RCDB's definitions, the first drop on Steel Hawg normally wouldn't be counted as an inversion. It's 120 degrees, the overbanks on Millennium Force are also 120 degrees, but MF has no inversions.

[thrillgeek]

I'd say it's not an inversion just for the simple fact that the riders are not 100% upside down. It's just weird to me to count half inversion.

[FeelTheFORCE]

Here's my .02 on the matter,

 

An inversion is classified as track being paralel with the ground in an upside manner, completely inverting the train that travels said track. There are of course some inversions that are debatable, most notably the incline loop on most B&M stand-up rides.

 

What it all comes down to is what the park classifies it as. According to Knott's Berry Farm, Silver Bullet has 6 1/2 inversions. The drop on Steel Hawg is no where near an inversion, but park management gets to make that call when they make a press release.

 

I completely agree. It's like coaster count with debatable credits, you (or the park) decide if it's an inversion or not. I'm just happy that these companies are creating these cool and unique elements. Us debating is probably a sign that they are doing a good job on doing so!

[coasterdude5]

I think it's up to each individual person and what their definition of "inverting" is. For me, I would count SFDK's slanted spike as an inversion - but I'm sure there are plenty of people that wouldn't.

[Millennium Force 44]

Hmm very interesting topic. I would definitely count Steel Hawg's first drop as a drop and most definitely not an inversion. As for V2:Vertical Velocity, I would say that is an inversion because the rides are being completely flipped upside down 360 degrees, as well as for inclined loops. What I think is questionable are elements like the one after Silver Bullet's vertical loop and elements like Black Mamba's "Jr." Immelmann.

 

It's a very controversial subject matter. I would say it should be up to the designer whether or not he/she wants to classify the element as an inversion or not.

[yankees15]

Well I don't considered Steel Hawg's drop as an inversion. An inversion too me it being completely upsidedown. This is why I think Hydra should only be considered to have 6 inversions. The inclinded dive loop is just a overbanked turn.

 

^I am just wondering, what exactly is a JR immelmann?

[Loefet]

The Jr. Immelmann is basically the same as the inclined dive loop found on Hydra, but backwards.

[goatdan]

Well I don't considered Steel Hawg's drop as an inversion. An inversion too me it being completely upsidedown. This is why I think Hydra should only be considered to have 6 inversions. The inclinded dive loop is just a overbanked turn.

 

But then you can also eliminate the cobra roll from Hydra since you don't go completely upside-down in it (and most cobra rolls).

 

Heck, for that matter Norwegian Loops aren't inversions either, nor Immelmans, nor Diving Loops, nor a lot of elements that aren't straight up loops or corkscrews.

 

It's all up to the park to determine what it is.

[Rollerman87]

Well I don't considered Steel Hawg's drop as an inversion. An inversion too me it being completely upsidedown. This is why I think Hydra should only be considered to have 6 inversions. The inclinded dive loop is just a overbanked turn.

 

But then you can also eliminate the cobra roll from Hydra since you don't go completely upside-down in it (and most cobra rolls).

 

Heck, for that matter Norwegian Loops aren't inversions either, nor Immelmans, nor Diving Loops, nor a lot of elements that aren't straight up loops or corkscrews.

 

It's all up to the park to determine what it is.

 

Huh? How do you not go fully upside down on a cobra roll or an immelman or Norwegian loop. You go through a circular motion that takes you from vertical, to upside, to vertical. You just confused me a ton.

 

And, for the count, I don't think Riddler's Revenge's incline loop, nor Silver Bullet's overbank are inversions

[yankees15]

But then you can also eliminate the cobra roll from Hydra since you don't go completely upside-down in it (and most cobra rolls).

 

Heck, for that matter Norwegian Loops aren't inversions either, nor Immelmans, nor Diving Loops, nor a lot of elements that aren't straight up loops or corkscrews.

 

It's all up to the park to determine what it is.

 

Alright let me rephrase what I said before. Mabe you don't have to be completely upsidedown for it to be an inversion. If you feel like you are completely upsidedown than it should count.

[MrX8991]

My idea is this: If the element travels more horizontally than it does vertically (aka anything beyond 135 degrees), then it is an inversion, since you are not dropping as much as you are traveling upside-down. At 135 degrees, you are traveling backwards and down at the same rate, so I don't know what to call that. I'd call it a drop, but that's up for debate. Anything less than 135 degrees, you are traveling more towards the ground than backwards and thus you are dropping. Does that make sense to you?

[VegasCoaster]

I remember hearing a similar debate around when MF was getting built as to when an overbank could become so banked that its an inversion. I think there was a similar conclusion that 135 degrees was the cut off. I wouldn't count Steel Hawg's drop as an inversion, but I would count incline loops and those cobra rolls and immelmans / dive loops that aren't that vertical.

[Bolliger&Mabillard]

Yea, Xcelerator's banks are pretty close to inversions, but no one mentions it.

[Cyber.Fiber]

The first drop on Steel Hawg normally wouldn't be counted as an inversion. It's 120 degrees, the overbanks on Millennium Force are also 120 degrees, but MF has no inversions.

 

True, but you have to remeber that the Overbanks on Millennium force are Horizontal, If they were counted as inversions they would need to be at least 180* instead of the 120* they are now.

 

Steel Hawg however takes its 120* angle vertical which turns riders upside down completely.

[goatdan]

Huh? How do you not go fully upside down on a cobra roll or an immelman or Norwegian loop. You go through a circular motion that takes you from vertical, to upside, to vertical. You just confused me a ton.

 

And, for the count, I don't think Riddler's Revenge's incline loop, nor Silver Bullet's overbank are inversions

 

Look at pictures up close of the Hydra cobra roll or the Speed Monster's Norwegian Loop. At no point during those elements do you go exactly perfectly upside down in them, as you do in a corkscrew or loop. There is some angle to the inversion that makes it not an 'inversion' then. If you really look at a lot of these elements, the train never truly goes "perfectly" upside down. The train is usually on an ascent or descent when it starts to change angles.

 

So if anything, then you have to draw an imaginary line between where an inversion is and inversion, and not an inversion based on the banking of it. Which makes inclined loops just as much of an inversion as cobra rolls or whatever, which means it really just comes down to who is defining it -- and that is up to the PR team at the park the ride is installed in.

 

A ride like MF might do better for the park if they don't define it as having inversions, since it may be a better fit for their clientèle or at least the target market for that ride, whereas defining an inclined loop as an inversion on Riddler's Revenge or Hydra may make these rides (which are targeted at a more extreme segment of the population) like even more 'extreme' rides, since you're inverted on them more.

 

The whole thing is completely splitting hairs.

 

Steel Hawg's first drop is an inversion if you think it is, or it's just a really overbanked first drop if you think it is. The park defines it as an inversion to make the ride seem like a more extreme thrill ride, which works for them, so that's what it is to me.

 

Hope that helped clear it up

[natatomic]

^I didn't use a protractor or anything but...

...how much more upside-down can you get?

[Rollerman87]

^That's exactly what I was thinking.

 

I mean, yeah, it's not PERFECT, but the angle is, what, 3 deg from completely horizontal. I think even Werner Stengel would be laughing if you said the cobra roll wasn't an inversion due to less than 10 degrees of "imperfection."

[JDo217]

Thanks for the responses guys. I don't think the cobra roll argument works for most coasters but it may work specifically for Hydra, depending on how you define inversion

 

(courtesy of rcdb)

 

I guess if you consider an inversion to be when you are "completely upside-down," then I can see where goatdan is coming from. But this is just nitpicking; if an inclined loop is considered an inversion (or even inclined dive loop) then it more than qualifies, imo.

 

Am I the only one who wants to see a more-than-vertical drop from a greater height than we already have? The drops on Fahrenheit and Maverick are both pretty intense but I'd love to see what it would be like going from a height of 200+ ft.

[goatdan]

Thanks for the responses guys. I don't think the cobra roll argument works for most coasters but it may work specifically for Hydra, depending on how you define inversion

 

Here's the thing -- if you really look at most cobra rolls, while Hydra is probably the most 'extreme' version of this, you don't go 100% perfectly upside down on them. There is somewhat of a side to side or front to back angle in almost all of them -- Hulk, Colossus (at Thorpe), Led Zepplin and a few others have the more pronounced twist.

 

Like I said, I think it is all up to the park to define what they think is an inversion -- and if a park says an inclined loop is an inversion and an overbanked turn is not, it's up to them to do so.

 

Also, just to throw another potential monkey wrench out there -- some people had said that an inversion is when a ride turns *you* upside down. Wouldn't Tatsu for instance than really only have one inversion, as the only time your heels actually go vertical above your head is in the pretzel loop. Corkscrews and in-line twists on flying coasters wouldn't truly be inversions then, however a steep drop would be one.

 

It's an interesting topic, but like I said before, I'm okay with the parks telling me what to think about it

[dammie16@vt.edu]

As long as it is fun and doesn't bang my head around then I could careless what anybody calls it.

 

If a parks PR calls a cobra roll a set of steep drops with some random twisting motion then whatever it's their loss on using too many syllables lol

 

But on the debate of angles I say this, if what has been said is true then there is NO inversions on any coasters because the train is never upside-down because some part of it is always going in or coming out of the loop.

 

So there problem solved, inversions are ILLUSIONS, they aren't real!!

[JamesMC]

^ I agree with you in principle, BUT on Steel Hawg, the whole 1-car train is upside down in the "Hanging Loop"

[Mechanic]

The dictionary that I looked in didn't specify any number of degrees when I looked up the word "invert". It simply says, "To turn inside out or upside down." It doesn't say 180* upside down, or absolutely perpendicular to the ground, or any of that.

 

Personally, I consider - most - elements to be an inversion if they meet the following criteria: If not for being restrained in the car, would you fall out if the car you're in was not moving? (Assuming you didn't hang on to anything) If the answer is yes, then I consider it an inversion. That's just my own personal opinion however. I understand that many may not agree and that's certainly their right.

 

That said, for the most part I will defer to rcdb for the inversion count on the vast majority of rides, although I do disagree with their assessment of a few coasters. V2 at SFDK is the most glaring example I can think of off the top of my head where I don't agree with rcdb.

 

All in all, it's not a HUGE issue to me one way or the other, but since the discussion is already here, there are my 2 cents.