Six Flags America (SFA) Discussion Thread

[CoasterGuy06]

Plus its not like SFA was the only park to have rides removed. Almost every SF park has removed rides without replacements in the past few years (ESPECIALLY SFGadv....the so called "flagship" of the chain).

[YoshiFan]

Yes, Great Adventure has gotten a lot but has lost more rides than any other park in the chain (and probably the country if not world) in the last 10 years. I think I mentioned it before in this thread a while back but either 32 or 33 rides have been removed or SBNO in the park since the early 2000's.

[redfoot12]

One thing I'd just like to chime in on (and will probably sound redundant in this thread) is that parks close to Six Flags America like Hershey, Kings Dominion, and Busch Gardens were either designed to be larger size parks in their inception (BG and KD) or have had a gradual build up to be what they are today (Hershey has a 100-year history). Premier/SFI tried to make a small park with fewer rides to be a medium to large size park in the span of 5 years. Right or wrong, the infrastructure hasn't kept up with that model and I think this park struggles to be something it's not on a yearly basis. This hurts things such as ride maintenance, employee morale, and overall park image and identity. Once some of these things are addressed then maybe we'll see an overall improvement to the park. This park in its current state simply can't support another major ride like Chang or a B&M floorless/sitdown.

On a side note, I'll be pumped if the park gets a Tony Hawk style coaster and will make a visit to SFA next year if it gets built.

[ArizonaGuy]

I don't know about y'all, but I live right next to SFA and almost everyday, (minus the past few days we were in 100*+ weather) SFA looked like it was crowded. I don't remember this many days last year where the first and second parking lots were filling up on a constant basis. Maybe you guys don't like how barren Gotham City is.. well the trees that are there aren't going to grow any faster just because you complain. Give it a couple years and it will look great!

As for me going to the park, I can honestly admit that I've been to SFA only twice this year and that is simply because I AM BORED with the park. I would rather go to KD or SFGADV instead of SFA, but even though I feel that way, I still support SFA and every decision they make, whether smart or dumb.

I really think the park needs to step their game up and build some thrill rides. A lot of you say that thrill rides ad coasters don't make a park, well look at SFMM; they have like 15 coasters (maybe more/less idk) and hardly any flats or anything else bringing guests back, but they are successful. We as enthusiasts might look farther than coasters, but the GP come mainly because of coasters and SFA is lacking in that department.

 

That's the thing that we've been complaining about for years & SFMM is a prime example of how far some of the SF parks have gotten out of balance,Shapiro wanted to create a family image which is important but unfortunately fell short of that goal.If you don't like coasters but have a family to bring then SFMM isn't the park for you.

 

The parks need to strike a balance & too much in any one direction of focus disrupts that balance,SFA was given water rides recently & at most once every 2 to 4 years while other SF parks were given flats or coasters on the average of every other year & why? because it was cost effective.

 

For instance SFI spent on average $200 million per year prior to 02 which was enough to cover rides for most of the parks but starting with the 02 season that budget was cut in half with a good percentage of that going towards two or three expensive coasters(usually B&M's at 20 million a piece) plus the 25 million wasted on that maintenance nightmare known as KK for 05 at SFGRADV resulting in next to nothing for the other parks,that coupled with ride removals at parks (cough SFA cough) left guests with even less to do than before & that's why parks like SFA are seeing a decline in attendance much more than the parks in the chain that are adding new rides & coasters on a consistent basis.

 

Ok...forget SFMM, SFGAdv, SFGAm, and some of the other "spoiled" SF parks and let's compare SFA to SFFT.......

SFFT got Superman KC in 2000........their next coaster was THBS in 2007, and Goliath:The Ride *giggles* in 2008. The park only had 6 major coasters and 1 kiddie coaster prior to that.(then Joker's Revenge was removed in what...2002 and wasn't replaced with THBS until 2007) No other MASSIVE improvements from 2001 to 2006 with the exception of the occasional waterpark slide and one removed coaster with low ridership. Is SFFT spoiled too?????

 

Just wanted to throw out that comparison.

 

As far as attendance.....how do you know SFA's attendance is decreasing? Have you seen a report that all of us haven't? You need to remember that the attendance that SFMM, SFGAdv, and SFGAm bring is is anywhere from probably 750k to 1million more people than what SFA brings in. A brand new mega coaster isn't going to help boost SFA's attendance anywhere close to that much. Some parks barely break even when installing a new coaster and it takes years for a return on their investment. They're more likely to get a quicker return from a larger park which already draws in more attendance than a park that is much smaller and quite honestly still needs to work on their image.

[Capitalize]

Perhaps there were no replacements because the parks operating budget, maintenance budget and staffing budget were not in line with keeping the existing rides, let alone replacing them with something newer which would require training, more staff, etc... This is just speculation, seeing as how I am not a corporate decision maker for SF. Parks that did get rides, etc. just had more budget. Budgets are most likely done on a park-to-park basis, and not company wide.

 

You sir, are awesome.

 

Parks don't remove rides because they hate them. They're removed generally for one of the following reasons:

A) Maintenance costs outweigh the benefits the ride brings in.

B) The ride is unsafe for operation

C) The ride has been known to harm people and has a bad public image

D) The ride has low ridership, which can be attributed to either A, B, or C.

E) Expansion or new installation

 

Its logical.

 

SFA Regular, you seem to be going off on this rant about how SFI hates SFA. They don't hate the park, but they are trying to run a good business as jynx pointed out. Stop being a fanboy for 2.5 seconds and stop and think about what corporate and the GP sees.

 

For the record Two Face, Iron Eagle, and Krypton Comet all met at least half of the A-E list you posted.

 

SFA Regular will probably never drop this, much like his idea of enclosing Jokers Jinx, no matter how much people tell him its a bad idea he won't listen to reason.

[jynx242]

Thanks Yamez! I want to reiterate, I don't want to see anything bad happen to this park, and it has been a long time (from an enthusiasts standpoint) since there was a major install. From improvements I've heard of since the TPR visit on the East Coast Tour, they are working on it and this is a good thing. As I said earlier - SFoG went through a REALLY rough patch a while back. That was my first job (a long time ago now,) and has always been my home park. It took a lot of work and a LONG time to get the park turned around. It isn't the smallest or the biggest, it just is. It does a good business and is now a gorgeous and family friendly park with some kick a$$ thrill rides. I see this kind of transformation possible for SFA and I see them working towards that. It is all in the numbers and it is important to remember, that no matter what WE want to see happen at a park, it is still a business with budgets, Profit and Loss, Labor Costs, Capital Expenditures, etc...

 

David

[netdvn]

If Weber was smart, he would continue to focus on building family friendly rides and keeping the parks well-kept. The Six Flags parks are going in the right direction whether SFA gets a new ride or not.

 

Now let's talk about this so-called "neglect".

1) Those that support overbuilding SFA with new rides every year have to realize that SFA is still one of the smaller (if not the smallest) SF park. It's pretty much been stated before, but smaller parks don't make enough money to pay off the costs of a brand new high-profile ride like I305.

 

2) KD (and KI to an extent) were the flagship parks of the Paramount chain, so they got more rides than the other three. Both CW and Carowinds didn't receive many major attractions as often as KI and KD did.

 

CGA is pretty much in the exact same state as SFA. Not only have they not received anything major for about a decade, but their flagship coaster was removed a few years after it opened for a waterpark expansion. Not only that, but the park cannot expand and it's current state may be in jeopardy.

 

3) Keep in mind that new rides don't make a park better. Magic Kingdom hasn't received a new major attraction since Splash Mountain (which was built in the early 90s), yet it's still the most visited theme park in the world.

 

For instance SFI spent on average $200 million per year prior to 02 which was enough to cover rides for most of the parks but starting with the 02 season that budget was cut in half with a good percentage of that going towards two or three expensive coasters(usually B&M's at 20 million a piece) plus the 25 million wasted on that maintenance nightmare known as KK for 05 at SFGRADV resulting in next to nothing for the other parks,that coupled with ride removals at parks (cough SFA cough) left guests with even less to do than before & that's why parks like SFA are seeing a decline in attendance much more than the parks in the chain that are adding new rides & coasters on a consistent basis.

 

You could say the exact same thing about Cedar Fair. While they're throwing away $25 million on that maintenance nightmare called Intimidator 305, parks like California's Great America can't even get a brand new GCI. Couple that on top of the fact that their flagship roller coaster, Stealth got removed for a water park expansion and the fact that they haven't received anything in a long time, Cedar Fair can't seem to run a park chain properly without abandoning some of their smaller parks.

 

And that's not mentioning a small Cedar Fair-owned park in Michigan that's only received a major addition once this decade and didn't get another major addition until 10 years later while other parks get massive B&M's and Intamins.

 

Everything else seems to have been covered pretty thoroughly.

[coasterdude2011]

You could say the exact same thing about Cedar Fair. While they're throwing away $25 million on that maintenance nightmare called Intimidator 305, parks like California's Great America can't even get a brand new GCI. Couple that on top of the fact that their flagship roller coaster, Stealth got removed for a water park expansion and the fact that they haven't received anything in a long time, Cedar Fair can't seem to run a park chain properly without abandoning some of their smaller parks.

 

And that's not mentioning a small Cedar Fair-owned park in Michigan that's only received a major addition once this decade and didn't get another major addition until 10 years later while other parks get massive B&M's and Intamins.

 

Well you can't though, Cedar Fair tried to put in the GCI there but it's not a good business decision because of the 49er's trying to take over the park, you can't invest huge projects into a park that might shut down any year, once the park becomes more stable they'll do fine, but until then there will be no new coasters or major attractions because its too much of a risk. Stealth also did not get removed under Cedar Fair, that was all Paramount, so in theory the park has been abandoned but not just because for bigger parks, because of the situation.

 

Michigan's Adventure is also a tiny park, their SLC actually fits in fine there and a B&M or Intamin is just too big of a project there, they have grown at the rate where they should, some new rides here or there and a new coaster that'll be a crowd pleaser, until there attendance goes up, Michigan's Adventure also will not see major new rides.

[KDCOASTERFAN]

Thanks Yamez! I want to reiterate, I don't want to see anything bad happen to this park, and it has been a long time (from an enthusiasts standpoint) since there was a major install. From improvements I've heard of since the TPR visit on the East Coast Tour, they are working on it and this is a good thing. As I said earlier - SFoG went through a REALLY rough patch a while back. That was my first job (a long time ago now,) and has always been my home park. It took a lot of work and a LONG time to get the park turned around. It isn't the smallest or the biggest, it just is. It does a good business and is now a gorgeous and family friendly park with some kick a$$ thrill rides. I see this kind of transformation possible for SFA and I see them working towards that. It is all in the numbers and it is important to remember, that no matter what WE want to see happen at a park, it is still a business with budgets, Profit and Loss, Labor Costs, Capital Expenditures, etc...

 

David

 

Ok so then why did SFWOA fail?

 

Part of the reason for the failure was lack of continued investment in the park....even CF couldn't repair the damge that SF had done to the place,mind you it wasn't just the lack of new attractions but the way in which management & staff were running the place & SFA does have the same problem I'll admit however when even the GP see that nothing new is added for years on end even they get tired of the park & go elsewhere instead.

 

The reason why there's been so much downtime there lately is because the maintenance budget has been cut,when rides like wild one,which had hardly no downtime in years past begin to suffer extended periods of downtime then you know that there's a real problem in the way the maintenance dept. is able to handle things.

[netdvn]

I'll admit however when even the GP see that nothing new is added for years on end even they get tired of the park & go elsewhere instead

Then explain why Magic Kingdom is still the most visited park in the world when the last E-Ticket ride they got was in 1992.

 

Ok so then why did SFWOA fail?

 

Part of the reason for the failure was lack of continued investment in the park....even CF couldn't repair the damge that SF had done to the place

SF added a ton of new stuff to the park in the late-90s, early 00s so there wasn't a lack of continued investment anywhere. At least until CF took over.

 

Well you can't though, Cedar Fair tried to put in the GCI there but it's not a good business decision because of the 49er's trying to take over the park, you can't invest huge projects into a park that might shut down any year, once the park becomes more stable they'll do fine, but until then there will be no new coasters or major attractions because its too much of a risk.

This issue arose not too long ago, but IIRC, the park didn't have that big of an issue with the 49ers a few years ago when Paramount owned the park. That would've been the perfect time to invest in a large-scale family coaster or something similar.

 

Stealth also did not get removed under Cedar Fair, that was all Paramount

I mentioned that because everyone was praising Weber for "not neglecting all the other parks in the chain".

 

Michigan's Adventure is also a tiny park, their SLC actually fits in fine there and a B&M or Intamin is just too big of a project there, they have grown at the rate where they should, some new rides here or there and a new coaster that'll be a crowd pleaser, until there attendance goes up, Michigan's Adventure also will not see major new rides.

The fact that SFA doesn't have that high of attendance compared to SFMM and SFGAm means that they can't build major projects without going into more debt. Parks like MM and GAdv are big enough and attendance is high enough that SF can do more with these parks (like testing new ride concepts or building prototypes) without that much of an issue. Parks like Fiesta Texas and SFA aren't big enough and don't have high enough attendance to warrant big projects on a regular basis like the flagships.

 

Six Flags tried to overbuild their parks in the 90s, early 00s and that only got the chain into more trouble. Building new coasters on a regular basis isn't gonna guarantee a higher attendance like some people have said before.

[CardCraze]

Maybe it's rude employees causing attendence problems. Then again, there's always the rabid fox problem they appear to have had.

 

http://www.gazette.net/stories/07082010/landnew175949_32549.php

Prince George's County Health Department officials are looking for anyone who came in contact with a rabid fox that bit a patron last week at Six Flags America.

 

The fox, which bit a patron June 26, was caught two days later and sent to the State of Maryland laboratory for a rabies test, which was positive, said Erin Bradley, a spokeswoman for the county's health department.

 

"Because rabies is a highly transmittable and treatable disease, the health department is taking all measures to locate any individuals that may have come in contact with this infected fox or any other infected animal," said Donald Shell, health officer for Prince George's County, in a statement.

 

As of Tuesday afternoon, the county's health department was unaware of any other people or animals infected by the fox, Bradley said.

 

Julia Filz, a spokeswoman for Six Flags America, did not have any specific information Friday afternoon about the bite.

 

"We are aware and we certainly are thinking about the person involved," Filz said. "It is quite a rare occurrence."

 

If bitten and infected, animals may become aggressive, stagger, have convulsions, foam at the mouth, have gradual paralysis or a change in voice. Pet owners who notice a wound and do not know the source of the wound should call their veterinarian immediately.

 

Any person or animal who may have come in contact with the fox should call the county's health department at 301-583-3750.

 

After normal work hours, on the weekend or holidays, call 240-508-5774.

[Capitalize]

That got mentioned a few pages back, before all this debate about "what came first, the good attendance or the multi-million dollar thrill ride?" started.

 

Thankfully SFA is in a better position than CGA going into the future I think. Loads of space to develop into and no fighting over the land in/around the park with sports franchises and such.

[SFA Regular]

I still think the next thing to come is a thrill ride weather people like it or not. SFA's water park is good and their is finally enough stuff for families to do with Thomas Land being there. It's been 9 years sense we got a new coaster or big ride, so why not add that? I would even settle for something like an all year haunted house.

[Capitalize]

When did anyone say they wouldn't like a thrill ride? Most people are simply content with the likelihood of the next attraction being something like a spinning coaster.

[SFA Regular]

When did anyone say they wouldn't like a thrill ride? Most people are simply content with the likelihood of the next attraction being something like a spinning coaster.

 

I wasn't saying that it wouldn't be good. There have been some people I spoke to that said "SFA, would not be able to keep it working". So that goes for all the people that think that. It's like anything else; you increase the size of your park, you have to increase the number of staff.

 

But what would you think about an all year haunted house?

[CoasterNERD502]

A couple pages back, you guys mentioned that SFA is a small park and that they cannot add huge new attractions because there aren't as many people. SFA is in the Washington Metro area which has millions of people living here and more to come. If SFA added a huge coaster like Intimidator, people would flock to the park in droves.

[netdvn]

^

- Nobody said that from what I read. The park isn't big enough to support a large capital investment simply because the park doesn't make enough money to get one (compared to the bigger parks in the chain).

 

- Adding an 305-sized coaster will attract people to the park, but the real question are

1) "Will it attract enough people to pay off the ride as soon as possible?"

2) "Will it attract people with money (families) or people that don't buy stuff as often/don't have much money?"

3) "What if the ride cannot be paid off?" What are the alternatives?"

 

Again, keep in mind, SF added tons of new big rides in the late 90s/early 00s and look at where it got the chain as a whole...

 

A full-year haunted house is an interesting idea, but winters can get pretty cold up in Maryland. I'm not sure if people are willing to go out and visit a haunted house in the middle of winter.

[CoasterNERD502]

^That wasn't their exact words, but what they basically said. I'll find it and quote it.

 

And I think SFA Regular meant a all season haunted house, meaning open everyday the park is, not the winter. But with that idea, I can see the public getting bored with it quickly. If not changed, it would get repetitive and people would loose interest.

[CoasterPrince]

I'm sure something fairly big like Giant Frisbee/Screamin Swing would boost the attendance a little. America has a nice flat collection but not too many thrill flats.

[djbrcace1234]

I would like to see something new there as well, but like Netdvn said, Despite having a big projected market, just adding something may bring in more guest, but will it pay itself off in due time?

[Yamez]

I wasn't saying that it wouldn't be good. There have been some people I spoke to that said "SFA, would not be able to keep it working". So that goes for all the people that think that. It's like anything else; you increase the size of your park, you have to increase the number of staff.

 

If you go back to Human Resources, as soon as you walk in the door there is a flyer that states: WANTED: Ride Mechanics REWARD: $1000. Then goes on to list terms and conditions about if you know a mechanic and send them the reference you'll get a bonus for them getting an interview and another at the completion of a season by both you and the mechanic. If they can't find mechanics how are they supposed to keep anything working in the first place? If you can't find people to do the job you can't increase your staff. Its a vicious cycle.

[KDCOASTERFAN]

A couple pages back, you guys mentioned that SFA is a small park and that they cannot add huge new attractions because there aren't as many people. SFA is in the Washington Metro area which has millions of people living here and more to come. If SFA added a huge coaster like Intimidator, people would flock to the park in droves.

 

Yeah if it weren't for the max height restriction of 200 ft they could add a giga.

 

Now I mentioned SFWOA in my last post because,like SFA they recieved new rides through the 01 season but when the 02 season came around Burke & co. focused all of their efforts on the so called "big four" parks & the rest got next to nothing.Anyone recall how adding Scream to SFMM 7 years ago didn't produce the attendance increase they were looking for?That was a prime example of money wasted on a ride that would've been better off going to a smaller park.

 

By adding a major new ride,be it a flat or coaster & advertising it to the local market people would begin to return to the park. parks like SFGRADV didn't get where they are from their first season after all & ONLY get people through the gates by offering a new ride expereince at least every other year....this is something that the owners have failed to realize with the smaller parks in the chain & if given enough time & money SFA could grow to become a park of the same caliber as SFGRADV.

[CoasterGuy06]

^SFWOA Added nothing??? They literally tripled or quadrupled the size of the park in TWO years. They also added several flat rides in 2002, and built a MASSIVE waterslide complex in 2003.

[djbrcace1234]

^

 

Amen, so can we stop talking about how some parks are getting "spoiled?"

 

It's all about what park can afford.

 

the park piror to Sixflags owning it could not attract guest, so what would make it worth visting now? The fact that adding coasters like SFA did in the late 90's and early 00's couldn't even attract as many people then, will anything do that?

 

Face it, the park I'm sure is barley braking even, so the park needs resturcture as a whole before they can recieve more capital spending.

[SFA Regular]

A couple pages back, you guys mentioned that SFA is a small park and that they cannot add huge new attractions because there aren't as many people. SFA is in the Washington Metro area which has millions of people living here and more to come. If SFA added a huge coaster like Intimidator, people would flock to the park in droves.

 

Yeah if it weren't for the max height restriction of 200 ft they could add a giga.

 

Now I mentioned SFWOA in my last post because,like SFA they recieved new rides through the 01 season but when the 02 season came around Burke & co. focused all of their efforts on the so called "big four" parks & the rest got next to nothing.Anyone recall how adding Scream to SFMM 7 years ago didn't produce the attendance increase they were looking for?That was a prime example of money wasted on a ride that would've been better off going to a smaller park.

 

By adding a major new ride,be it a flat or coaster & advertising it to the local market people would begin to return to the park. parks like SFGRADV didn't get where they are from their first season after all & ONLY get people through the gates by offering a new ride expereince at least every other year....this is something that the owners have failed to realize with the smaller parks in the chain & if given enough time & money SFA could grow to become a park of the same caliber as SFGRADV.

 

I agree with you. A ride like (Scream) would work well at SFA. If not that, something like (The Voyage) or (Lighting Racer). Anything that is unique would do well at SFA. The park has the more than enough space for anything you can think of. In my opinion, if we were owned by a company that made good investments in us, our park would be one amazing place and a must see attraction in the MARYLAND area.

 

I wonder if Paramounts would do well buying SFA and turning it into a movie park? They could keep the top coasters there and knock down some of the buildings so that the layout of the park could be modified.