Holiday World (HW) Discussion Thread

[Gav]

^you're making a lot of good points there, you could be right. I'll stick to it being a sitdown but you could be right. But launching on your back would be very uncomfortable at high speed, it hasnt been done before right?

Conceptually, a launch on your back would be the same as a launch on a space shot...the G-Forces are being directed through your butt.

[Rickrollercoaster]

http://www.rideaccidents.com/intamin.html

 

That's just to 2004

[Locostitch]

So I have kinda have been lurking in this thread and here is my thought. Since Paula said it will be a worlds first it rules out all basic B&M designs. So here is my idea. The station is built elevated 20 or more feet off the ground. You board the flyer train like normal and dispatch out of the station . You drop into a show building that is not visible from the station where you do an inversion or two and become disoriented. Just as you exit the building you flip and the launch is enclosed and projections of stars are on the ceiling . You instantly launch 0 to 62 into an inverted top hat where you become flying again. You from there go on a journey that stays low to the ground that is about 6,000 feet and you eventually end back in the station.

[Tmcdllr]

What about within the last 3-4 years?

[ZeroGravity55]

So I have kinda have been lurking in this thread and here is my thought. Since Paula said it will be a worlds first it rules out all basic B&M designs. So here is my idea. The station is built elevated 20 or more feet off the ground. You board the flyer train like normal and dispatch out of the station . You drop into a show building that is not visible from the station where you do an inversion or two and become disoriented. Just as you exit the building you flip and the launch is enclosed and projections of stars are on the ceiling . You instantly launch 0 to 62 into an inverted top hat where you become flying again. You from there go on a journey that stays low to the ground that is about 6,000 feet and you eventually end back in the station.

 

6,000 feet of track would be a tad bit too much for a 22 million dollar price tag, don't you think?

[Locostitch]

So I have kinda have been lurking in this thread and here is my thought. Since Paula said it will be a worlds first it rules out all basic B&M designs. So here is my idea. The station is built elevated 20 or more feet off the ground. You board the flyer train like normal and dispatch out of the station . You drop into a show building that is not visible from the station where you do an inversion or two and become disoriented. Just as you exit the building you flip and the launch is enclosed and projections of stars are on the ceiling . You instantly launch 0 to 62 into an inverted top hat where you become flying again. You from there go on a journey that stays low to the ground that is about 6,000 feet and you eventually end back in the station.

 

6,000 feet of track would be a tad bit too much for a 22 million dollar price tag, don't you think?

 

No not at all because if you keep it low to the ground. X-flight cost 12 million and it is a wing coaster at 3,000 feet. Double that cost and take out the cost of a lift and put in a launch you got 6,000 feet for 22 mil.

[ZeroGravity55]

^LSM launch technology is kind of expensive, like more expensive than lift hills. 2007 Maverick-2 launches, 4,450 feet of track-21 million. 2014 Helix- 2 launches, 4,500 feet-32 million. Just to put this into more respective, B&M's one Giga coaster only has 5,500 feet of track and it costed 28 million. For this ride to have 6,000 feet worth of track, it's going to need at least two launches to get through the course. No matter how low you stay to the ground, the polyurethane wheels will eventually absorb the needed energy to complete the course, which is why it would need two launches. In today's market, price inflation would drive the cost up. Just look at Helix compared to Maverick. Now would I love for this ride to have 6,000 feet worth of track, of course, but unless B&M gives HW a bargain (which is very unlikely), it's just not happening.

[Locostitch]

^LSM launch technology is kind of expensive, like more expensive than lift hills. 2007 Maverick-2 launches, 4,450 feet of track-21 million. 2014 Helix- 2 launches, 4,500 feet-32 million. Just to put this into more respective, B&M's one Giga coaster only has 5,500 feet of track and it costed 28 million. For this ride to have 6,000 feet worth of track, it's going to need at least two launches to get through the course. No matter how low you stay to the ground, the polyurethane wheels will eventually absorb the needed energy to complete the course, which is why it would need two launches. In today's market, price inflation would drive the cost up. Just look at Helix compared to Maverick. Now would I love for this ride to have 6,000 feet worth of track, of course, but unless B&M gives HW a bargain (which is very unlikely), it's just not happening.

 

Both of those are from oversea manufacturers. B&M makes there track in the USA. It will not cost a lot to ship to holiday world. Helix is generally very high off the ground and also Europe has insanely high taxes so helix cost a lot. It also had topography going against it. Maverick on the other hand was new technology with 5 trains and it uses a very expensive track system which almost doubles the amount of steel for that then what B&M track would cost. Full throttle cost 7 million had 2 launches of 70 mph and 2200 feet of track on a hillside. Now triple full throttle and all of a sudden you got 6 launches and 6600 feet of track. So if Holiday world wants 6,000 feet for 22 mil they will get it.

[Tmcdllr]

Launch technology, no matter who or where it's from, is more expensive than a chain lift. Not only do you have the components that make up the launch but you also have a ton of wiring and need a sophisticated computer, more cost, to control it.

[BlahBlahson]

What about within the last 3-4 years?

 

Intamin's safety record is really rough in comparison to other manufacturers. Here's their wikipedia just to start.

 

I love intamin coasters and have several of them in my top 20 rollercoasters, but if I were running a park I would really try to look elsewhere.

 

-Maverick's Heartline Roll

-All the other Intamin-Cedar Point opening year major mechanical issues

-I305's first turn and other delays.

-Falcon's Fury Delays

-Pilgrim's Plunge

-Perilous Plunge

-Oakwood's Hydro

-Several Cable snap delays including the Xcelerator, SFKK incidents.

-Repeated Restraint Failures. This is a big one IMO.

-Noticeably high downtime rates for most of their attractions.

 

That said, whenever other manufacturers have gone as big as Intamin, often it turns out just as mechanically challenged...Rip Ride Rockit, Steel Dragon, Vekoma GIB's, S&S air launchers, Some Premier Coasters, etc. But for Intamin it's a common thread.

[Tmcdllr]

Yeah I see that.

 

The bigger/more innovative you go the more the chance for something to go wrong increases especially in prototypes or new designs.

 

I get your point.

[coasterchitchat]

What about within the last 3-4 years?

 

Intamin's safety record is really rough in comparison to other manufacturers. Here's their wikipedia just to start.

 

I love intamin coasters and have several of them in my top 20 rollercoasters, but if I were running a park I would really try to look elsewhere.

 

-Maverick's Heartline Roll

-All the other Intamin-Cedar Point opening year major mechanical issues

-I305's first turn and other delays.

-Falcon's Fury Delays

-Pilgrim's Plunge

-Perilous Plunge

-Oakwood's Hydro

-Several Cable snap delays including the Xcelerator, SFKK incidents.

-Repeated Restraint Failures. This is a big one IMO.

-Noticeably high downtime rates for most of their attractions.

 

That said, whenever other manufacturers have gone as big as Intamin, often it turns out just as mechanically challenged...Rip Ride Rockit, Steel Dragon, Vekoma GIB's, S&S air launchers, Some Premier Coasters, etc. But for Intamin it's a common thread.

 

B&M rarely has issues. Nice and smooth, more expensive, but more reliable. That's why Cedar Fair goes with B&M. I think Intamin crashed it with Holiday World after Pilgrim's Plunge and wanted something unique so they went to B&M and told them to do a launched invert/flyer.

[ZeroGravity55]

^LSM launch technology is kind of expensive, like more expensive than lift hills. 2007 Maverick-2 launches, 4,450 feet of track-21 million. 2014 Helix- 2 launches, 4,500 feet-32 million. Just to put this into more respective, B&M's one Giga coaster only has 5,500 feet of track and it costed 28 million. For this ride to have 6,000 feet worth of track, it's going to need at least two launches to get through the course. No matter how low you stay to the ground, the polyurethane wheels will eventually absorb the needed energy to complete the course, which is why it would need two launches. In today's market, price inflation would drive the cost up. Just look at Helix compared to Maverick. Now would I love for this ride to have 6,000 feet worth of track, of course, but unless B&M gives HW a bargain (which is very unlikely), it's just not happening.

 

Both of those are from oversea manufacturers. B&M makes there track in the USA. It will not cost a lot to ship to holiday world. Helix is generally very high off the ground and also Europe has insanely high taxes so helix cost a lot. It also had topography going against it. Maverick on the other hand was new technology with 5 trains and it uses a very expensive track system which almost doubles the amount of steel for that then what B&M track would cost. YOLOcoaster cost 7 million had 2 launches of 70 mph and 2200 feet of track on a hillside. Now triple YOLOcoaster and all of a sudden you got 6 launches and 6600 feet of track. So if Holiday world wants 6,000 feet for 22 mil they will get it.

 

How was Maverick a new track system? I believe the track was the exact same track that they used on every single one of their coasters up until Intimidator 305 and Skyrush when they switched to the double spined track. Are you talking about the launch system? Yeah it may have been new, but it is still really expensive today. As someone mentioned already it is more expensive than a lift. It has more complex technology than a lift chain, which means it should be more expensive. I hate to tell you this, launch or no launch, HW won't get 6,000 feet for 22 million, when you can't even get 6,000 feet for 28 million out of a B&M giga coaster. For the record, B&M has never even built a roller coaster over 6,000 feet.

[tororific]

 

B&M rarely has issues. Nice and smooth, more expensive, but more reliable. That's why Cedar Fair goes with B&M.

 

well, other than Milliennium Force, and then TTD, and then Wicked Twister, and then Maverick....more Intamin than B&M at Cedar Point.

And other than Gatekeeper, all the Intamins were installed after the B&M installations.....

Edited July 21, 2014 by tororific

[tororific]

But why? What is the basis for people to think that HW routinely builds the "biggest and best coasters." I mean, HW has 3 great coasters, but only one approximates the "biggest" description (and it did not break any records as "biggest" anything). Raven is great, Legend is very good -- neither is anywhere near a "biggest" of anything. The assumption makes sense for Cedar Point, in terms of record breakers, but not HW.

 

The Raven- #1 wooden roller coaster on the planet 1999-2003

The Voyage- Most seconds of airtime on any coaster on the planet- #1 wooden roller coaster 2007-2012

Pilgrims Plunge- opened as the world tallest water ride

Wildebeest-opened as the worlds longest water coaster-#1 waterpark ride on the planet since 2010

Mammoth-world longest water coaster- top 3 in the worlds best waterpark ride poll

Splashin' Safari-#2 waterpark on the planet

Holiday World and Splashin' Safari-Cleanest park and Friendliest staff multiple times.

The park as won the "Applause Award", which is considered a very high honor in the amusement industry.

 

The park advertises all of these things around here, and this where that expectation comes from. Get where I'm coming from? Quote from Leah Koch on Holiblog about her father, Will Koch: "Dad liked to build really great things, often the first of their kind."

 

The waterpark has a decent claim to fame for building the "biggest" or world's first -- but not the rollercoasters.

[ZeroGravity55]

^ My original post was never really about the roller coasters, but every major attraction in general. Neither was it about about building the biggest or worlds first. It was about how they build something bigger and better than they did before. This whole perception started with The Raven being voted the #1 wooden roller coaster in the world. The park tried to top that with The Legend by including coaster enthusiast input, they sort of missed on it as extreme laterals are not really appealing to some enthusiasts. In 2006, it was very clear from the moment they announced The Voyage, that they were trying to build the best wooden coaster on the planet. A wooden coaster of that size, length, layout, and intensity was almost unthinkable at that time. From that point on, the park has made it a point to try and build either the best, the tallest, the longest, or the first of some kind. Look at every major attraction they've announced since then, they all did or still do hold one of those things I just listed. They try to continue to build something bigger and better. It is what they do.

[tororific]

^ My original post was never really about the roller coasters, but every major attraction in general. Neither was it about about building the biggest or worlds first. It was about how they build something bigger and better than they did before. This whole perception started with The Raven being voted the #1 wooden roller coaster in the world. The park tried to top that with The Legend by including coaster enthusiast input, they sort of missed on it as extreme laterals are not really appealing to some enthusiasts. In 2006, it was very clear from the moment they announced The Voyage, that they were trying to build the best wooden coaster on the planet. A wooden coaster of that size, length, layout, and intensity was almost unthinkable at that time. From that point on, the park has made it a point to try and build either the best, the tallest, the longest, or the first of some kind. Look at every major attraction they've announced since then, they all did or still do hold one of those things I just listed. They try to continue to build something bigger and better. It is what they do.

 

fair enough. Just trying to understand where this reputation comes from. I think how the public view HW in the immediate area is perhaps different from how those outside of the area view it (for those who have heard of it). But I am huge fan on what they have been doing for the past 14 years and how they have been growing the park -- and how they run the park.

The marketing has been great as well.

[gerstlaueringvar]

What about within the last 3-4 years?

 

Intamin's safety record is really rough in comparison to other manufacturers. Here's their wikipedia just to start.

 

I love intamin coasters and have several of them in my top 20 rollercoasters, but if I were running a park I would really try to look elsewhere.

 

-Maverick's Heartline Roll

-All the other Intamin-Cedar Point opening year major mechanical issues

-I305's first turn and other delays.

-Falcon's Fury Delays

-Pilgrim's Plunge

-Perilous Plunge

-Oakwood's Hydro

-Several Cable snap delays including the Xcelerator, SFKK incidents.

-Repeated Restraint Failures. This is a big one IMO.

-Noticeably high downtime rates for most of their attractions.

 

That said, whenever other manufacturers have gone as big as Intamin, often it turns out just as mechanically challenged...Rip Ride Rockit, Steel Dragon, Vekoma GIB's, S&S air launchers, Some Premier Coasters, etc. But for Intamin it's a common thread.

That's because Intamin uses new technologies on nearly all of their new installations. Is there even a newer Intamin ride other than clones that uses completely the same technology and/or element of their older rides? Gringotts and WMG breaks down frequently because they are also pushing the new and revolutionary technology like Intamin does. Maverick might not have as much new technologies as Gringotts but at least it is not something we all knew what to expect and rode similar things way before it opened.

[parkjunkie]

Not trying to make anyone upset, but I think we're getting a tad off track from the main subject here.

[Rickrollercoaster]

I'm still thinking it's going to be a Wing Coaster, without launch. I think it will have splash fins installed, which is where the uniqueness comes from.

[Tmcdllr]

A wing coaster with a splash? Meh, not impressed. Gotta be something more "first-of-its-kind" than a splash.

 

Launched flyer would be a first.

[Rickrollercoaster]

I don't think Holiday World wants to go above and beyond with a prototype and be plagued with maintenance problems. I think it will be a known style, with a nice twist. But, then again Pilgrim's Plunge was a prototype. But then, again, that just proves my point.

[Tmcdllr]

I don't think Holiday World wants to go above and beyond with a prototype and be plagued with maintenance problems. I think it will be a known style, with a nice twist. But, then again Pilgrim's Plunge was a prototype. But then, again, that just proves my point.

 

But what if they do? What if they want something new and unique, something nobody else has done even if it's a prototype?

[Rickrollercoaster]

Well that's their choice. I'm perfectly okay with it.

[HolidayWorldFTW]

Everything Leah and Paula have said in the holiblog posts strongly points to something very unique and one of a kind. Heck the words "one of a kind" were even used, I think it's pretty darn safe to assume this ride will be "one of a kind" rather that just something normal with a little twist or some splash fins, lol