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Veganism / Vegetarianism


Hercules
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^No. Farm animals.

 

I don't see myself as holier than thou...I just wished that people would be honest b/c it is insulting to me when a person says that they love animals even though they know exactly what it took to get a steak their plate.

 

I made a commitment to a cause that I feel strongly for...I truly find animals to be these amazing mysterious creatures with feelings and thoughts that we don't understand. It just bothers me when someone says that they like animals...my thinking is then why don't you show it

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I've been a vegetarian for 15 years...I started when I was 12 b/c I felt that what is being done to animals is wrong.

 

What we're doing to animals is wrong? What about what animals do to other animals? Does the antelope deserve to be killed by the lion? Do mice want to be caught and killed by cats? If it is wrong for us to exploit animals then doesn't it make it wrong for other animals to exploit their fellow creatures? Aren't we ourselves, Homo sapiens, a species of animal? What I'm getting at here is that just as the lion exploits other animals for food, so do we. It just so happens that we can exploit on a massive scale thanks to technology. What you need to remember is that nature is one cruel b*tch, who care nothing for the well being and rights of animals. So from nature's standpoint, what we do to animals is just business as usual. Now I have nothing against veganism or vegetarianism, but if your one of them because you argue that it isn't natural to exploit animals, then you are sadly mistaken in my opinion. Just be aware that veganism/ vegetarianism is unnatural in humans.(In a way that makes being a vegan/vegetarian an exercise in separating yourself from the cruelty of nature). BTW, I'm not a vegan or vegetarian.

 

Well, I am someone that believes that humans don't necessarily need to eat meat to be healthy, and I think that I'm an example of that, along with a very long line of vegetarians who have lived long and healthy lives. I don't have a problem at all with the way carnivorous animals do their business. There are a lot of animals that stalk, and prey on other animals. It is not in them to pick an apple from a tree - they have talons, or claws, or sharp teeth for a reason. And there is research out there that suggests that maybe humans aren't necessarily designed to eat meat, and other believe that we are omnivorous - it all really comes down to opinion which is why I kind of take your comment about veganism as being unnatural as kind of offensive. I just don't think that, as thinking and supposedly compassionate beings, we need to treat animals poorly. Sure, kill them and eat them if you would like. At some point in our existence we started to eat animals and haven't stopped. But is there a need to club them for not reason, or torture and poke them just for fun? Or yell at them while they are already scared enough in the pen? If you want to eat meat, then fine. And if you want to slaughter an animal on a farm for profit, then fine. I just can't see how someone can advocate the blatant mistreatment of another living thing.

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People drive me nuts when they say that they love animals as they are chomping on a leg of lamb. It’s the contradiction that bothers me. People can have their choice as to what they want to eat...but I can’t believe that a person cares about animals and the environment when they are eating meat or wearing fur/leather.

 

I'd just like to point out the Native Americans have as much respect for land and animal as anyone who has walked the earth.

 

Personally I have no problem with people choosing what to eat, but don't want my food tortured before I eat. Circle of life baby. However, personally I have an extremely finicky palette. I can not eat food if I do not like the taste and texture. Lots of fruit, vegetables and many meats I can not tolerate. My mouth just spits it right out. Whether it be a cheap hot dog, bad cut of meat, kethcup or a leafy vegetable. (I would have never survived on Fear Factor). That's just how my body has been conditioned.

 

What I find to be more contradcitory is people who will do anything to protect animal life but don't respect human life in the same manner. But that is a bigger debate that is dividing the world today.

 

and Jay - you forgot to mention how much you miss cheesestaeks.

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^Native Americans respected animals and nature...they never claimed to have a loved them and they demonstrated that respect when they killed an animal, they utilized every part of it.

 

This isn’t a debate about humans...and you are right, people should care for them just as well.

 

I don’t understand is how is not caring for humanity synonymous with being a vegetarian/vegan?

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^^ Dear God I miss Pat's!!!!!! Screw Geno's.

 

^ There are people that hate all of humanity because they eat meat and whatever. It is kind of crazy. They are extremists. Thus, screw them too. Although I have questioned people for a variety of reasons, as well as government and organized religion, I in no way have hated all of humankind.

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I've been a vegetarian for 15 years...I started when I was 12 b/c I felt that what is being done to animals is wrong.

 

What we're doing to animals is wrong? What about what animals do to other animals? Does the antelope deserve to be killed by the lion? Do mice want to be caught and killed by cats? If it is wrong for us to exploit animals then doesn't it make it wrong for other animals to exploit their fellow creatures? Aren't we ourselves, Homo sapiens, a species of animal? What I'm getting at here is that just as the lion exploits other animals for food, so do we. It just so happens that we can exploit on a massive scale thanks to technology. What you need to remember is that nature is one cruel b*tch, who care nothing for the well being and rights of animals. So from nature's standpoint, what we do to animals is just business as usual. Now I have nothing against veganism or vegetarianism, but if your one of them because you argue that it isn't natural to exploit animals, then you are sadly mistaken in my opinion. Just be aware that veganism/ vegetarianism is unnatural in humans.(In a way that makes being a vegan/vegetarian an exercise in separating yourself from the cruelty of nature). BTW, I'm not a vegan or vegetarian.

 

Well, I am someone that believes that humans don't necessarily need to eat meat to be healthy, and I think that I'm an example of that, along with a very long line of vegetarians who have lived long and healthy lives. I don't have a problem at all with the way carnivorous animals do their business. There are a lot of animals that stalk, and prey on other animals. It is not in them to pick an apple from a tree - they have talons, or claws, or sharp teeth for a reason. And there is research out there that suggests that maybe humans aren't necessarily designed to eat meat, and other believe that we are omnivorous - it all really comes down to opinion which is why I kind of take your comment about veganism as being unnatural as kind of offensive. I just don't think that, as thinking and supposedly compassionate beings, we need to treat animals poorly. Sure, kill them and eat them if you would like. At some point in our existence we started to eat animals and haven't stopped. But is there a need to club them for not reason, or torture and poke them just for fun? Or yell at them while they are already scared enough in the pen? If you want to eat meat, then fine. And if you want to slaughter an animal on a farm for profit, then fine. I just can't see how someone can advocate the blatant mistreatment of another living thing.

 

I wasn't saying we should treat animals poorly, I myself am entirely against harming animals for no reason. I apologize if you found my "unnatural" comment offensive, I will admit it is possible to live on vegetables and fruits alone, however, it requires careful monitoring of your diet and in some cases dietary supplements, since all nine essential amino acids cannot be obtained from most plants, unlike meat, which easily meets the requirements for all nine of them. Actually, it is possible to survive on meat almost entirely and remain healthy (just like it is possible to eat only vegetables and fruits and remain healthy), granted of course that you live an active lifestyle, just ask the Inuits.

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I don’t understand is how is not caring for humanity synonymous with being a vegetarian/vegan?

 

I think he was talking about extremist groups and eco-terrorists. Groups like the Earth Liberation Front and (to a lesser extent) Greenpeace and PETA. A lot of animal activists don't care about the consequences of their actions as long as they make an environmental point. Unfortunately, a lot of these groups give a bad label to more moderate environmental activists, but I think groups like these are what larry was getting at.

 

Here's a link to the kind of thing I'm talking about:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,343768,00.html

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I actually have found this pretty interesting and a nice change of place from the normal random threads. As I said earlier I do LOVE meat and even with the info I won't stop eating. that being said I have made some changes and some other things I have always done. I buy my eggs now from a private that has free range chickes. I would buy more beef like that but it is not readily availble in our area. I have never and will never wear fur and I use leather as little as possible. I also do my best to not buy from places that get charged with inhumane treatment, but I know I still purchase some.

 

The part I hate about almost ANY environmental type group is that they want all these huge steps done, instead of starting small and moving up. some people might agree to one veggie meal a week, but they blast you with this no meat at all thing and it just turns you right off.

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Interesting topic. I've been a vegetarian for several years, and I haven't encountered much criticism over it. I don't let what people say bother me, and I don't lecture others on what they should and shouldn't eat. Everyone does their own thing, and if you want to eat meat, that's cool with me.

 

However, I don't think that I could ever become a vegan. I can't live without cheese!!

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Interesting topic. First let me say, I could care less if someone wants to be a vegetarian or vegan. What you chose to do makes no difference to me. The only thing I would argue is the idea that there is mixed opinions on weather humans are omnivores or not. You will find a VAST minority of "experts" would say we are not omnivores. You know those two pointy teeth we all have on both the top and the bottom of our mouths? Yeah, they are for tearing flesh, not for eating bananas. Carnivores naturally have sharp teeth. Just look at any dog. Herbivores naturally have flat teeth. Just look at any cow. IMO, there is no argument that humans were created (or evolved into, however you look at it) as omnivores.

 

We also are far more intelligent that any other species on the planet, so I totally get not wanting to eat meat if you feel it is cruel. However, naturally, we are omnivores, I see little to no argument against that fact.

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Personally I think those are for tearing into an apple, but I digress.

 

So, if I am understanding correctly, there is just a bunch of stereotyping going on along with people either being intimidated by or having some kind of hate towards people that do different things than them - doing something different than the "norm"?

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I don't know about being intimidated by vegans, but I think vegans catch a lot of backlash because there are so many vegans and animal rights activists that give their cause a bad reputation. I have some vegan friends who aren't like that at all, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of vegans are extremely "in your face". That's the type of vegan that people bash, and unfortunately more moderate vegans sometimes get caught in the middle. So yeah, I guess you could say that there's a stereotype against vegans, but (in my opinion) it's not because they're different but rather because they can often try to force their views on others in a condescending manner.

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Actually, it is possible to survive on meat almost entirely and remain healthy

 

A ~100% meat diet deviates far from standard dietary guidelines. You can't get the recommended 20-25 g/day of fiber by eating only meat. Fruits & vegetables also contain antioxidants that you can't get from meat. So, yeah you could live off of meat alone, but you'd be putting yourself at increased risk of cancer and heart disease and probably some other nasty disease states.

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I have met several vegans, and I always find it strange that after the vegans I have met tell me about the animals that I eat, I then ask them: Are you pro-choice or pro-life? All I have asked thus far have been pro-choice, which kind of surprised me. I was told that eating an animal was wrong, but abortion should remain legal. I am not making a judgment one way or the other. I thought that someone who would care so much about an animal's life, would also care that much for an unborn baby. I DO NOT want to get that arguement going and before I am shouted down, I know, I know, pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion, so please do not respond that I have said it is.

 

I do love animals and do not see a problem saying that I do even though I enjoy eating meat. Say what you will. I will also never condemn or think differently of those who are vegans or vegetarians. There was one guy in my Navy boot camp company that was vegan, i made sure I always sat next to him at meals

 

Aren't human teeth the way they are because we are omnivorous? Some animals can not eat meat because of their teeth and digestive system.

I do not know enough about this subject, so if someone could enlighten me I would appreciate it.

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Although this article has been around for some time, Maddox covered this sort of topic on his website below:

 

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

 

and here:

 

http://maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi#PETA

 

Is he right, wrong, off his rocker, all of the above? (Hopefully this spurs even more civil conversation. It's always nice to see that the TPR crowd seems to be one of the few boards that can actually keeps threads like this unlocked.)

 

I honestly don't have much of an opinion on this one way or another due to my brother and sister-in-law being long time vegans. I learned how to eat within their lifestyle from being around them since I was very young. I also love a good cow just as much as the next carnivore, so who am I to judge anyone?

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^Ha. Maddox inspires civil discourse? Maddox is quite good at what he does: Writing comedic rants. I wouldn't really take him as a serious essayist on the issue though. Here is my favorite part of what he wrote on the subject:

 

What's more humane? Being slaughtered for meat or having to spend 8 hours a day, 40 hours per week in a cubicle for the rest of your life with a$$holes who listen to $%^#%! music without headphones, then retiring and withering away with old age and cancer as your obnoxious kids grow up and treat you like shit? Slaughter please.
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Don't get me wrong, I enjoy his work for comical reasons only. But....I've always thought it was an interesting point that he brought up about the field animals as well.

 

Don't read too much into those links for deep info folks. I just wanted to suggest yet another tiny perspective into this discussion. Doesn't mean I think it's right or wrong either way.

 

-Sean "Now that I'm reading my last post again, civil may have been the wrong choice of word for anything to do with Maddox's stuff. " Menefee

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Actually, it is possible to survive on meat almost entirely and remain healthy

 

A ~100% meat diet deviates far from standard dietary guidelines. You can't get the recommended 20-25 g/day of fiber by eating only meat. Fruits & vegetables also contain antioxidants that you can't get from meat. So, yeah you could live off of meat alone, but you'd be putting yourself at increased risk of cancer and heart disease and probably some other nasty disease states.

 

I was referring to the Inuits of the north. They live on a diet which consists of primarily meat and the very occasional plant. Despite thier diet they somehow manage to get the nutrients they need to stay healthy. This has to do with the unique makeup of the whale and seal meat they eat, which contains vitamin C and other nutrients typically not associated with or found in meat. But in general, you are right, a balanced diet is definitely the way to go if you want to remain healthy.

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I have met several vegans, and I always find it strange that after the vegans I have met tell me about the animals that I eat, I then ask them: Are you pro-choice or pro-life? All I have asked thus far have been pro-choice, which kind of surprised me. I was told that eating an animal was wrong, but abortion should remain legal. I am not making a judgment one way or the other. I thought that someone who would care so much about an animal's life, would also care that much for an unborn baby. I DO NOT want to get that arguement going and before I am shouted down, I know, I know, pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion, so please do not respond that I have said it is.

 

I will bite on this one. I'm sure I'll get reamed for it by someone...

 

I foster kittens and cats primarily from a rescue group in the area. I have also taken in some kittens from PAWS in Philadelphia. PAWS seems to have this insane number of animals brought in every day, a lot of them newborn kittens - with and without their mother. A couple of months ago I went in to pick up new fosters, and they dropped me with 4 2 day old kittens without a mother. These kittens needed constant care - bottle feedings every 2 hours and a very warm place to sleep. It is very hard to keep newborn kittens alive without their mother (I believe only 25% make it). Nonetheless, 3 out of the 4 died 3 days later despite our efforts, which I guess is spot on with the statistics. Now, the way I see it, those cats should have been euthanized right from the start. They were severely disadvantaged without a mother to care for them, plus, their chance of living was miniscule. Also, with the absurd overpopulation problem and number of irresponsible pet owners out there, I feel like the resources used to try to keep these kittens alive could be used to help out those cats and dogs (and other animals) that are already in the shelters. Plus, if these kittens were to be kept alive, they would have been adopted out over a cat that had been sitting in the shelter for a couple of months (because everyone loves a cute and cuddly kitten) and then that poor other cat would be killed off to make room for the next batch of human cared for kittens.

 

At the clinic that I volunteer at, if a stray or feral cat is brought in to be spayed, and she is pregnant, the babies are killed and disposed of. Some people are very sad that it is that way, but it is really for the best. Not only should there not be more cats in the world with so many that are already homeless, but I'm sure that mother cat does not want to go through the craziness of having babies suck on here, and then have to clean up their urine and crap.

 

Basically, I believe in abortion, and I think that animal story kind of helps to share my view on it. "I can't believe it! You are a vegan yet you want to kill the animals, and humans too?" No. I don't want to kill the animals. Sometimes it is just necessary and more humane to do what I was just talking about. To me, a 1 day old kitten, or a human fetus are pretty much irrelevant beings. They don't have a personality, or any idea of what is going on in the world. They cannot put together rational thoughts, and honestly, if they can feel pain it would be news to me. I think that abortion is sometimes the most responsible decision that someone can make. If a child is going to be brought up with severe disadvantages (into poverty, with disability, without someone who is willing to care for them) then it is the right move to go ahead with abortion. Of course, there are people that take advantage of abortion and that is wrong (a girl in high school that I knew had 3 abortions that I knew of). Sometimes, it is just the right choice to make.

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^ Did you actually read what he said? He went into the discussion because someone brought it up saying it doesn't make sense for vegans to be pro-choice. It was not brought up out of the blue.

 

Hercules. Great great response. It is something i never really thought about, but your logic makes perfect sense to me. Thankyou for taking the time to write that.

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