EL TORO vs. THE VOYAGE

[Manic Monte]

And I see exactly what you mean. It's funny that you mention the good old days of Ghostrider, because there was a similar situation. That ride was my #1 wooden coaster for 3 years before it went to crap. It didn't matter if it was day or night, Ghostrider would kick butt.

 

But the thing is, why didn't I feel the same way about Texas Giant (before it went to crap)? Because it's about more than just night rides vs day rides. I preferred the layout of Ghostrider, the trains, the elements along *with* the night rides. Even though I felt Texas Giant had much stronger airtime, Ghostrider had more of what I wanted in a wooden coaster.

 

This is how I feel about Voyage. Yes the night rides make a strong ride even stronger, but without everything else that Voyage offers for me, it wouldn't matter.

 

If someone tells me a ride "just doesn't do it for them", all I can offer is my counter-opinion based on *my* rides. I can't step into someone elses body for them to experience the ride the way I did. That's why there are different opinions.

 

Millennium Force offers the same kick butt ride no matter when I ride it. But I would still rank my favorite "unpredictable" wooden coasters above it. That's why to me, it makes more sense to compare El Toro against Balder (for which some people seem to think it comes up short against), and Voyage against other traditional woodie.

 

But it's become obvious to me that people are going to compare these two whether I like it or not. So, there's my opinion.

[Meteornotes]

Anyone that doesn't think a wood coaster can delivery quality rides early in the day needs to look no further than The Phoenix. My #1 coaster for many years delivers a great ride no matter the time of day. To me, that's the mark of a #1 ride, giving a quality ride no matter the conditions. I've since moved it down to #2 on the Mitch poll the last two years because of Balder, but it is still an excellent ride.

 

I should be riding Voyage in August, so we'll see what I think of it then.

 

dt

[imbordisux]

It frustrates me to no end to hear about a coaster where people get these "amazing rides", but in order to get them it has to be a specific time, specific date, when the moon is full, the coaster gremlins have tampered with the ride, etc, etc....

 

And this happens quite a bit on traditional woodies. For example, I've *never* had a good ride on Shivering Timbers. Everytime I've been on that ride, I get minimal floater air at best.

 

And as for Voyage, we rode it over two days morning, and through late afternoon, and even in the rain, and we just never got these "amazing, ejector airtime filled" rides that I hear so many other people talk about because they were at a specific event where the ride ran until midnight, etc, etc...

 

I'm in the camp where, I liked Voyage...a LOT...but I just don't understand the hype. I don't think it lived up, and I certainly don't understand how it became #1. My guess is that a lot of people voted it #1 based on these so called "amazing rides" during an event. But if those same people had only ridden it during normal operating hours, would it still have made that ranking?

 

While I understand what you're saying about being frustrated because a ride doesn't meet your expectations, it seems that you're forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that, due to the height/weight/build of each individual rider, every person can have a different experience on the same ride, regardless of time/temp/weather/etc.

 

For instance, I've ridden SFNE's S:ROS many times over the last few years, in good weather, bad weather, morning, night, start of season and end of season, and have never had an "amazing" ride on it. I know it's pretty much accepted as fact that it's the greatest steel coaster in America, but I've actually never been blown away by it. It's a fun ride, sure, but to me, it's not exactly mind-blowing. Conversely, I find that SFGAdv's Nitro gives me FAR more air-time, my ass is up and out of that seat MUCH more than on S:ROS, and I really can't understand all the reports and reviews I've read that say they got no air on Nitro.

 

I also notice that you tend to mention that a #1 coaster should be one that doesn't vary from morning to night. Again, that's your opinion, not fact; personally, I think the #1 coaster should be the one that is capable of giving you the absolute best ride, not the best "average" across the day. Maybe someone feels that Toro runs better all day, but that, at night, Voyage is better than anything that Toro is capable of - if you get the better run on Voyage, does that not make it "better"? I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying that different people use different criteria than you to judge, and it's not fair to marginalize it just because you don't agree with it.

 

As a comparison, let's say there are two restaurants you really like; one has really great food every time, and one restaurant that gives absolutely amazing food when one chef is on, but only "pretty good" food when the other chef is on. How does one judge the best restaurant? Do you take the safe bet and do the one that has a better "average" taste, or do you find out what night the better chef at the other restaurant is on, and go there? There is no right answer, it's all opinion. If I know I like "Chef Bob" at the second restaurant, and I know he's on this Thursday, well then, this Thursday I'm gonna go eat at the second restaurant, because I know that I like Chef Bob's food more than anything I've ever had at the first place. Maybe you disagree, and that's fine if you do.

 

One other point of contention, one that I've noticed in this thread many times, is that you come down very hard on people who give their opinion of a ride they haven't been on. Now, I'm not talking about people who claim that they can tell how good a ride actually is without having ridden it, saying that "I haven't ridden this, but it's definitely better", but the posts where people are just giving their opinions on what they expect the ride to be like. I don't think there's anything wrong with someone saying "Well, judging by reviews, I'm more inclined to think this is for me", or "I'm more excited about..."

 

I understand not making assumptions, but is merely saying that you're more inclined to like something any different than when you make a comment about some new coaster being built? Have you yourself not posted a press-release about some new ride and mentioned whether or not you were excited? Nothing along the lines of "Eh, it looks like another forceless B&M"? You're judging the ride without having ridden it.

 

Ok, I'm done, I hope I'm not banned or anything for disagreeing with ya, cuz I do really like this little online community.

[robbalvey]

^ Why would someone be "banned" for not agreeing with us?!?! Where does anyone get the idea that you're not allowed to agree with me or you're banned? We have NEVER banned anyone for disagreeing. We have banned people who cannot express their opinions in a civil manner and are rude and obnoxious to people and downright just being a dick, but never banned someone for having a difference of opinion.

 

*confused*

 

Anyway, you pretty much just said exactly what I said....although you did seem to ignore some of the things I said to make a point, so I'll just bring those up now, just so you're clear....

 

You said:

you're forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that, due to the height/weight/build of each individual rider, every person can have a different experience on the same ride

 

I said:

I understand that coasters have "bad days"

 

You said:

I also notice that you tend to mention that a #1 coaster should be one that doesn't vary from morning to night. Again, that's your opinion, not fact

 

I said:

IMO, A #1 coaster is a ride where you can get the awesome rides any time you visit.

(IMO = In My Opinion, BTW)

(BTW = By The Way, AFIAK)

(AFAIK = Oh...nevermind!)

 

Again, I don't really care what one person thinks over the other. It's all discussion. It's all just opinions. You do seem to ingore the fact that I say 1. I *like* The Voyage (out of 153 woodies, it ranked in my top 20) and 2. No one's opinion is right or wrong.

 

Hell, neither Voyage OR El Toro are my #1 woodie anyway, so overall I really don't care! That spot is reserved for Balder.

 

--Robb

[christianscoasters]

All parks should buy Intamin Woodies. They truly are the best wooden coasters out there.

 

Tell Wild West World that. An intamin would definitely boost the parks rating.

[imbordisux]

Robb, I wasn't worried about being banned for disagreeing with you, it's just that I realize that sometimes I... lack tact when mentioning my disagreeing opinion. Maybe it doesn't translate to text, but I've been told on many occasions that I come-off as condescending when voicing a differing opinion; not that I'm trying to be, but I know I can sometimes sound a bit egotistical when speaking.

 

Anyway, I've seen you occasionally preface your statements as opinion, but - at least in my own mind - it seems that you often come down harshly on people who post things like "I haven't been on it yet, but I bet I'd like it". I realize that such a post doesn't do much good in adding tallies to a poll (and agree that people shouldn't be voting on things they haven't experienced), but it would seem that, given the topic of discussion, posting such statements gives us more info on the poster, in this case, what type of coaster he/she would tend to like.

 

That was all, glad you didn't take offense to anything I said. Umm... love the site! Hope to meet you guys some day! I like rodents, too! I had a bunny once!

[robbalvey]

I like rodents, too! I had a bunny once!

LOL! Awesome! Best post of the thread so far!

[alpengeist04]

For instance, I've ridden SFNE's S:ROS many times over the last few years, in good weather, bad weather, morning, night, start of season and end of season, and have never had an "amazing" ride on it. I know it's pretty much accepted as fact that it's the greatest steel coaster in America, but I've actually never been blown away by it. It's a fun ride, sure, but to me, it's not exactly mind-blowing. Conversely, I find that SFGAdv's Nitro gives me FAR more air-time, my a$$ is up and out of that seat MUCH more than on S:ROS, and I really can't understand all the reports and reviews I've read that say they got no air on Nitro.

 

It does amaze me how different opinions can be, which is not a bad thing. I've had the exact opposite experiences on these two coaster. I've ridden them both within a 40 hour time frame, and after riding S:ROS, Nitro just seems slightly above average at best to me. I've been on Nitro many times and it just doesn't give me much airtime, actually it's quite boring compared to ROS and El Toro. ...but that's just me.

[imbordisux]

I like rodents, too! I had a bunny once!

LOL! Awesome! Best post of the thread so far!

 

Yeah, I miss her. I named her "Maxi". I remember the day I got her, the shop-keeper told me that her species (dutch dwarf?) have an average life span of about 2-3 years, maybe 4-5 if you're lucky.

 

She lived to be twelve.

 

She looked kinda like this, but with grey fur:

[easytoremember]

For instance, I've ridden SFNE's S:ROS many times over the last few years, in good weather, bad weather, morning, night, start of season and end of season, and have never had an "amazing" ride on it. I know it's pretty much accepted as fact that it's the greatest steel coaster in America, but I've actually never been blown away by it. It's a fun ride, sure, but to me, it's not exactly mind-blowing. Conversely, I find that SFGAdv's Nitro gives me FAR more air-time, my a$$ is up and out of that seat MUCH more than on S:ROS, and I really can't understand all the reports and reviews I've read that say they got no air on Nitro.

 

It does amaze me how different opinions can be, which is not a bad thing. I've had the exact opposite experiences on these two coaster. I've ridden them both within a 40 hour time frame, and after riding S:ROS, Nitro just seems slightly above average at best to me. I've been on Nitro many times and it just doesn't give me much airtime, actually it's quite boring compared to ROS and El Toro. ...but that's just me.

 

Yes. I agree with the fact that different people get different rides. Take me for example. Voyage is amazing for me mainly because I am so skinny. The reason this is is because the PTC trains that Voyage uses has lapbars that do not go further than a certain point, and because I am so skinny I always have enough room between me and the restraint to enjoy the airtime. From what I have heard on El Toro on the other hand, there is no possible way to have room between you and the restraint. This is an important factor to consider for me because I usually do not enjoy a woodie if I get stapled all of the time.

[Jonathan]

Okay, I've read through a bit of this thread, and I'm pretty confused. Somehow this myth seems to have been propagated by a few people that Voyage only delivers great rides at night, or during a "magic hour". That's completely false. Now, as for Robb, I certainly believe what you are saying. You've been on enough coasters that I have no problem trusting your takes on rides, so if you say Voyage wasn't running well, then I'm sure it wasn't, and that is unfortunate. But, when I have ridden it, it has been just as good a ride in the morning as at night. When I rode it at around 11 AM for my first ride it immediately blew away every other coaster I have ever been on. The ride did seem to gain some speed by the night, and certainly was much wilder in pitch blackness, but didn't change nearly as much as Raven, when I've found to get much faster at night.

 

As for El Toro; I haven't ridden it yet. It is at the top of my list of coasters to go on, and I will ride it either this Fall or next year. Voyage seems like more of my type of ride, but I am fully expecting Voyage and El Toro to be #1 and 2, regardless of which one I like better.

[Real]

Every ride is effected as it goes on throughout the day. Steel, wood, rubber and grass coasters all generally get a bit faster as the day progresses.

 

I do respect the aspect Robb is pointing out that a top notch ride should be good all day. Thats something I could see looking at. It depends on if you like the anticipation of riding throughout the day and each ride being different or each time you ride its the same thing.

 

 

I, as youd expect, lean towards my rides being different. I have read and agree that Toro gets a bit faster and crazier at night - its expected. But the difference from a day ride on Voyage (which, I still think is crazy) and then night is like having 2 rides in the same coaster. I got some rides again with no moon (haha) and the moon didnt decrease gravity or anything, but your perception of speed is increased 10-fold when theres virtually no light to be seen for half the ride. On my walkback I wanted to throw a rock at that light on the mid course and break it into a million little peices. Oh well, dont think Graham from TGG would have liked that much...

 

I think however that the fact that it even operates from morning till dusk like a steel coaster solidifies my statements about its difference from traditional wood and into its own category. I disagree that Raven is that great at 10am. Its good, definatly not 5pm or 9pm good. Maybe that ride holds sentimental value? Its a charmer for alot of people.

 

 

However, I will be the first inline if someone convinces that burning down Mean Streak and replacing with a El Toro-Balder is a good thing at CP. I cant see, even after their issues with Intamin, that tearing that down and replacing with a PnP wouldnt both benefit their attendance AND maintenence thus reducing costs.

[robbalvey]

Okay, I've read through a bit of this thread, and I'm pretty confused. Somehow this myth seems to have been propagated by a few people that Voyage only delivers great rides at night, or during a "magic hour". That's completely false.

All I know is that on the 2 days I rode Voyage it didn't blow me away. I liked it, but I didn't see what other people saw it in.

 

And then people would tell me "Did you ride it at night?" "No." "Oh, well you didn't ride Voyage, then." "Gee, that's funny, I went into the queue for Voyage, sat in the train that said Voyage...I'm pretty sure I rode Voyage." "No, no...if you didn't ride it at night, or during Holiwood Nights, then you didn't REALLY ride Voyage." Then at this point I just turn around and stop talking.

 

I mean, so many people keep trying to convince me what an amazing ride it is, and I always say "Look, I totally respect that you LOVE it, but for me, when I rode it, I just didn't see what the big deal was."

 

Perhaps when we ride it again in a few weeks it will be running better. I'll also be riding at night during that trip, so I'm curious to see what all the fuss is about.

 

But overall, the only reason that myth exists is because so many people over and over keep telling me that.

 

--Robb "I'm just as confused..." Alvey

[Jonathan]

Honestly, I think that is because the two other Holiday World woodies have been established through the years of Stark Raven Mad as two coasters that improve dramatically after nightfall. I always think of Boulder Dash and Raven as the two rides that you MUST ride at night.

 

So, it seems to me like people just figured, well, since it was like that with Raven and Legend, Voyage might as well be the same way. I went to Holiwood Nights, and the ride is fabulous at night, and certainly faster, but not so much faster that someone who doesn't care for it during the day will like it at night. I found the increase in speed to be on par with the majority of wooden coasters that I've been on. Nothing out of the ordinary.

 

But, then again, the poster two posts above me said it's like two different coasters between day and night, so I guess I missed something.

[ginzo]

However, I will be the first inline if someone convinces that burning down Mean Streak and replacing with a El Toro-Balder is a good thing at CP. I cant see, even after their issues with Intamin, that tearing that down and replacing with a PnP wouldnt both benefit their attendance AND maintenence thus reducing costs.

 

Cedar Point won't get a new woodie for as long as Dick Kinzel runs the show. He told this to BeemerBoy point blank this year at their ERT.

 

I think that an Intamin woodie would tremendously benefit the park. For a park that claims to be the "roller coaster capital of the world" they sure do blow at wood. Intamin would give them one of the best woodies in the world. Because of the CP nonsense hype machine they would EASILY become the #1 woodie on the Golden Tickets, which they just love for their marketing propaganda. And we the enthusiasts get a great woodie to ride. Everyone wins.

 

About El Toro v. Voyage: now that I've finally ridden both I am qualified to comment on this rivalry.

 

And the winner is: El Toro by a long shot. The Voyage just doesn't produce the absurdly intense ride that El Toro does in the back seat. There is absolutely no comparison as far as the first drops go; El Toro's is 10,000x better. The airtime on El Toro is far more potent than on the Voyage. Again there is really no comparison, except in that Voyage has more spots of airtime overall. El Toro is smoother, and feels faster overall. Some insane demonic thrust drives that train on Toro. Voyage does NOT produce this feeling of being propelled by a rocket.

 

Toro's only weak spots are that the second half doesn't measure up to the first, and that it could use a few more airtime hills.

[Airtime&Gravity]

While I can't speak for ET vs. Voyage, I can speak for ET vs. Hades and the other traditional wooden coasters.

 

When I rode ET a month ago, I knew it was a great coaster, but having ridden only one Intamin wooden coaster before(American Eagle), I didn't really know what the pre-fab ones were like. Well the lift was fast, and you approach the top far quicker than you want, and you already have good speed before you dive. Even though stapled in on my first ride, there was still great airtime on the first drop and hills. This ride doesn't let up, and it hauls around the final turns. My second ride(I was at the park for two hours), which was also the second to last ride of the night(could have stayed on, but, well you'll find out why I didn't) was even better. My first ride put ET as one of my top 3, but the night ride made it #1 by far. The lift seemed faster, and since I wasn't stapled in, I got even more airtime. From the top of every hill to the bottom, you are in the air, and the night ride was even more relentless. I swear it made Nitro seem slow(KK didn't even seem that fast now), and it was by far my best coaster ride. By the time ended, my stomach was still at the top of the lift, and while I could have ridden again, I didn't think my stomach could take it.

 

Compared to Hades and other wooden coasters, there is no comparison. Yes there are great traditional wooden coasters, but Intamin has perfected the concept.

[Real]

However, I will be the first inline if someone convinces that burning down Mean Streak and replacing with a El Toro-Balder is a good thing at CP. I cant see, even after their issues with Intamin, that tearing that down and replacing with a PnP wouldnt both benefit their attendance AND maintenence thus reducing costs.

 

Cedar Point won't get a new woodie for as long as Dick Kinzel runs the show. He told this to BeemerBoy point blank this year at their ERT.

 

Yea, I saw. Well, Im sure Intamin could pull off the fact that "its not really a wooden coaster" and sell it as steel - maintanece has to be nearly the same, but Im sure Kinzel would stick to his guns that "wood is bad". I used to like Kinzel a bit, now I cant stand him. That comment alone plus his inability to meet and greet people around the park.

[alpengeist04]

I agree, Real. For the (Intamin) woodie comment alone, Kinzel is on my sh*t list.

[ginzo]

Yea, I saw. Well, Im sure Intamin could pull off the fact that "its not really a wooden coaster" and sell it as steel - maintanece has to be nearly the same, but Im sure Kinzel would stick to his guns that "wood is bad". I used to like Kinzel a bit, now I cant stand him. That comment alone plus his inability to meet and greet people around the park.

 

I can understand why he wouldn't ever install a regular woodie again. But, I think this is an example of not being able to teach an old dog new tricks.

 

The technology has come a long way since they installed Mean Streak. All three of the current Intamin woodies are top 10 rides. Why wouldn't they want to jump in on that?

 

At least they were willing to take a chance on Maverick. $21 million for a 100 ft. coaster in Cedar Point is certainly a departure from their previous ways.

[Manic Monte]

And the fact that he's RIDDEN El Toro and STILL feels that way is amazing to me. Oh well, between his comments ,Six Flags "anti" big coaster stance and smaller parks filing for bankruptcy, where could we possibly see another one built here in the states?

 

Then again, it's not like he's going to TELL you what he might be considering building anyway...

[Jonathan]

Nobody would argue with it if you made it clear why you prefer one over the other. I think the whole idea is to understand why people like one better, so it would be good to see some explanation.

[Manic Monte]

Both are wonderful coasters. I guess that's not good enough, one of them has to WIN.

 

No wonder people think enthusiasts are weird...

[DG55]

This has got me thinking, why wont they build a woodie in Orlando/Tampa? Why wont Disney build one (this also applies to Disneyland Paris too)?

 

Especially for Disney, it would be such a suitable ride - almost comes themed right out the box, like some kind of rickety railway. Can be family friendly too. Imagine what Disney could do with one.

 

Its disconcerting that Disney will build something like Indiana Jones - rough, low capacity, uninspired - but they wont build a good well themed woodie.

[ginzo]

This has got me thinking, why wont they build a woodie in Orlando/Tampa? Why wont Disney build one (this also applies to Disneyland Paris too)?

 

Especially for Disney, it would be such a suitable ride - almost comes themed right out the box, like some kind of rickety railway. Can be family friendly too. Imagine what Disney could do with one.

 

Its disconcerting that Disney will build something like Indiana Jones - rough, low capacity, uninspired - but they wont build a good well themed woodie.

 

If they go by Walt Disney's original philosophy, there will never be a wooden coaster at a Disney park. The old school parks that featured woodies like Coney Island also had prostitutes and freak shows, and thus weren't very family friendly. I remember reading that Walt specifically didn't want wooden coasters because they reminded him of what he was trying to avoid in Disneyland.

 

Of course, Disney doesn't seem to give a crap about Walt's original vision these days. So, maybe it will happen. Though I dunno what Disney's relationship with Intamin is like these days. I can't imagine it's too great after the California Screamin' debacle. In case you don't know, Disney modified the ride and there was an accident.

[imbordisux]

^

 

Seriously?

 

Well, I guess it makes sense; I mean, nothing screams "red light district" more than, umm, wooden roller-coasters... or something...