Six Flags Equal Access Pass Eliminated As Of November 6 2015

[neil009]

^There is no such thing as "bullshit" when it comes to the law. If the person says they need an accommodation, you absolutely cannot deny it because you think they are lying.

 

I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. You don't deny them the pass outright, you do what you can to make them feel embarrassed IF they're lying. You know how employees at high-end retailers walk up and ask if you need anything, primarily to let you know they're watching you? And if you look suspicious they may even follow you around? (Had that happen to me before.) Same principle. If you're an honest person these practices don't hurt you, but if you're dishonest, they help to persuade you you're not getting away with anything (even if you probably could). It's a mind game. It's also about changing the culture at the park in general and creating an environment where people respect rules. It's a subtle art and one that Six Flags knows its incapable of. You'll never see Holiday World need a policy like this.

 

Flashpass I believe at least lets you select your rides from the qbot while access pass guests still have to go from ride to ride and check in with an employee. I guess you could say it was comparable to the original version of flash passes that had to be scanned at a station in front of each venue, but it isn't exactly getting a free flashpass in its current form.

 

This line of discussion is pointless. Obviously people think it's a viable alternative to a legitimate flashpass or else they wouldn't be doing it, so of course it's losing Six Flags money.

 

 

The reality is this: There's so many variables involved with these programs that there really is no such thing as a perfect system that can prevent abuse and keep a park out of a legal "grey area."

 

Six Flags is either looking to set the new industry precedent or will be sued and change their policy very quickly. Though I am of the opinion they will get sued and lose, I applaud them for trying.

 

No, there is no perfect system, but that's the world we live in. I don't buy for a second this policy is either needed or will be particularly effective. Six Flags has broken new ground in instituting policies that openly antagonize their customers, I can't say I'm surprised but I don't find it worthy of applause.

[chadster]

 

Its not about selling more flash passes, I mean let's face it, at OT there are only about 5 rides the flash pass is even worthy on. It's about people the number of people who have slowly started to cheat the system and get a pseudo flash pass by getting a ride time (well sometimes anyway!) and running off to ride something else and coming back.

 

So these people who are cheating the system are getting something for free when they should be paying for it, and you don't think that factors into Six Flags' thinking at all?

 

Here is a prime example! Shockwave's main queue is ADA accessible, it's a freaking ramp! People were walking up the exit stairs trying to get on with an ADA pass! The ops were like, um, the regular queue is the accessible entrance and the guests got pissed! So in order to refrain from a disturbance, they allowed them to ride.

 

These things are preventable, they only happen because Six Flags employees are terribly under-trained and under-managed. I'm guessing that's the whole reason they're having this problem in the first place. If Six Flags is really having a problem on the scale some are suggesting then it's clear they're doing literally nothing to prevent it. It doesn't take a lot of brains to figure this out. Don't have the place where the passes are distributed at the front of the park. Make it harder to find. Don't have people wait in a line outside to get it. Have an employee managing it who's older and can conduct his/herself with some presence. If it's a gaggle of able-bodied kids with no adult in sight, look at them skeptically, ask who exactly the pass is for. Explain the pass is only for people who really need it and ask them, do you really need it? Kids are generally terrible liars, so if they're lying, you can make it clear with your body language that they shouldn't have it, and they probably won't be persistent enough to demand it.

 

If you don't believe me that it's possible to solve this problem without resorting to discriminatory policies, then all I can tell you is the proof is in the pudding. Other parks don't have this problem, other parks don't have this policy.

 

So wait. Your solution is to make it more difficult for a person with a legit disability to find the location to obtain an ADA pass? Isn't the whole point of ADA to make it easier for people with disabilities? Guest relations is not always located outside the park gates, and many have more than one location. So to confuse the legit users on where to go is not good customer service.

 

Having an older adult manage who gets passes who who doesn't is reverse age discrimination, there are plenty of mature young adults in the world capable of performing guest relations functions.

 

What factors into Six Flags thinking is the bad publicity a park gets by word of mouth when people who have legit waited in line to see those who are very much able bodied and not on a VIP tour enter through the designated entrance and take up a front or back row seat on every other train. In turn those waiting in line have their time extended repeatedly, become frustrated, and vent through various social media channels. Do you think park managers enjoy seeing their employees yelled at and listing to snide remarks all day by those pissed off that multiple able bodied people are skipping the line? I'll go ahead and answer that. No.

 

Incidentally the qbot(flahspass) is not owned, managed, or operated by Six Flags. Much like how Kodak operates the onride photos and the dress up photo booths, Loqueue operates and staffs under an agreement and in turn gives Six Flags a %. The amount of money they *might* make by people who would be forced to stop taking the free route would be insignificant as the likelihood of even 25% of those people getting a flashpass is small.

[neil009]

 

So wait. Your solution is to make it more difficult for a person with a legit disability to find the location to obtain an ADA pass? Isn't the whole point of ADA to make it easier for people with disabilities? Guest relations is not always located outside the park gates, and many have more than one location. So to confuse the legit users on where to go is not good customer service.

 

If we're choosing between making the location slightly less obvious and requiring a doctor's note, what do you think sounds more drastic and discriminatory?

 

Having an older adult manage who gets passes who who doesn't is reverse age discrimination, there are plenty of mature young adults in the world capable of performing guest relations functions.

 

If you're trying to project a sense of authority, age helps. Is hiring big guys to be bouncers weight discrimination?

 

What factors into Six Flags thinking is the bad publicity a park gets by word of mouth when people who have legit waited in line to see those who are very much able bodied and not on a VIP tour enter through the designated entrance and take up a front or back row seat on every other train. In turn those waiting in line have their time extended repeatedly, become frustrated, and vent through various social media channels. Do you think park managers enjoy seeing their employees yelled at and listing to snide remarks all day by those pissed off that multiple able bodied people are skipping the line? I'll go ahead and answer that. No.

 

Incidentally the qbot(flahspass) is not owned, managed, or operated by Six Flags. Much like how Kodak operates the onride photos and the dress up photo booths, Loqueue operates and staffs under an agreement and in turn gives Six Flags a %. The amount of money they *might* make by people who would be forced to stop taking the free route would be insignificant as the likelihood of even 25% of those people getting a flashpass is small.

 

Right, Six Flags has their reputation in mind, not money. Right. That's the reasoning behind this offensive, borderline illegal policy. Makes sense.

Edited October 26, 2015 by neil009

[Jew]

I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. You don't deny them the pass outright, you do what you can to make them feel embarrassed IF they're lying. You know how employees at high-end retailers walk up and ask if you need anything, primarily to let you know they're watching you? And if you look suspicious they may even follow you around? (Had that happen to me before.) Same principle. If you're an honest person these practices don't hurt you, but if you're dishonest, they help to persuade you you're not getting away with anything (even if you probably could). It's a mind game. It's also about changing the culture at the park in general and creating an environment where people respect rules. It's a subtle art and one that Six Flags knows its incapable of. You'll never see Holiday World need a policy like this.

 

You're missing what I am saying: that is not how it works legally. You cannot legally do anything besides ask what type of accommodation they need. If you harass them, make them feel uncomfortable, try to keep asking them if they REALLY need it...you are breaking the law. You can't treat someone asking for an accommodation (even if they are lying) like a shoplifter It doesn't work that way.

[neil009]

^I'm not claiming to be an expert of course, but I do think there's a line where you can change the attitude of the general public towards the pass, without discriminating or breaking the law. The justification for this policy relies on two assumptions:

 

1. Abuse of the pass is widespread, rampant, of apocalyptic proportions.

 

2. This policy is necessary because Six Flags has already undertaken every conceivable, more costumer-friendly measure to stem the tide.

 

To me, one or the other of those have to be false. They can't both be true or else we would see this same problem at other parks.

[scottm13]

Six Flags already does something similar to what you are saying they should do. They ask you "Why do you feel you deserve this pass" and you have to sign the pass stating that you understand that if you do not actually need the pass, you are subject to civil penalties. The passes at some parks are no longer given out at the front of the park, but rather a specific location inside the park.

 

I'll be sure to let them know that they should start handing them out in a back alley with a bodyguard guarding it though. Because asking for a Doctors note is obviously too outrageous.

[Jew]

^^We do. It made national headlines when people were selling "tour guide" services with their pass at Disney parks. Disney changed their policy to be more strict as a result of that.

[neil009]

^Right, and yet they still haven't gone as far as Six Flags, true? Doesn't that kind of prove my point that there are other ways of dealing with it? Also it's a different situation because Disney has an excellent reputation for costumer service, they manage their employees better, etc. I trust they can handle this with sensitivity more than I do SF.

Edited October 27, 2015 by neil009

[chadster]

 

So wait. Your solution is to make it more difficult for a person with a legit disability to find the location to obtain an ADA pass? Isn't the whole point of ADA to make it easier for people with disabilities? Guest relations is not always located outside the park gates, and many have more than one location. So to confuse the legit users on where to go is not good customer service.

 

If we're choosing between making the location slightly less obvious and requiring a doctor's note, what do you think sounds more drastic and discriminatory?

 

You're exact words were "Make it harder to find" now you are saying "slightly less obvious". What are you suggesting, an ADA passes only line? No park would staff that from open to close. You must have a Doctor's note to excuse you from work for weeks on end, if you are flying and have something embedded in you that might set off a detector, or for a handicap parking permit. Is that also drastic? No. It's to legitimize your need.

 

Having an older adult manage who gets passes who who doesn't is reverse age discrimination, there are plenty of mature young adults in the world capable of performing guest relations functions.

If you're trying to project a sense of authority, age helps. Is hiring big guys to be bouncers weight discrimination?

 

Weight discrimination is not covered under the law. But only hiring someone because they're larger can be, not hiring someone who is equally qualified only because they are skinny can also be considered hiring practice discrimination. One of the few exceptions to the rules under the law are in aviation, military, and law enforcement.

 

To employ someone whose job is to embarrass a handicapped individual is an even bigger lawsuit and publicity nightmare waiting to happen. Unless you are the legal guardian of one with a disability they don't hand out passes anyway, so the argument of a bunch of kids getting a pass on their own is moot anyway. These are grown ass adults getting a pass so they don't have to listen to little Johnny or Jane whine about having to wait or go to the bathroom or that they are tired or bored. No wonder this country is #$&*ed.

 

Right, Six Flags has their reputation in mind, not money. Right. That's the reasoning behind this offensive, borderline illegal policy. Makes sense.

 

Despite what enthusiasts like to think, they do care about their reputation and public image just as much as they care about making a profit. Again, the potential to make maybe $50,000 off of increased qBot sales is a drop in the bucket and might cover running and maintenance costs for a day at one park.

 

Do I think they will get sued? Sure, someone will do it. Will it be someone who thinks they are entitled? High chance. Other than the person who sues because they were denied a ride due to loss of limb and ultimately loses the suit due to ride manufacture specifications. I'd be willing to say some, if not many, who are legit handicap might even as much as welcome the policy change as it has the potential to flush out the lines and clear the paths.

 

Been to Disney and seen the ADA line for Space Mountain or Big Thunder Mountain? It's insane at times.

 

Would you not be pissed as a person who could barely walk 10 steps that others were taking advantage of system designed specifically for people with conditions who didn't have one? I sure as hell would be.

 

Will the policy be tweaked? Probably, it's like anything, you gauge customer feedback and make adjustments accordingly. To me, if you have a legit handicap permit, bringing a copy of it or the documentation for it is all one would need. Those are typically not handed out like candy.

[neil009]

This is great, I have one person telling me my suggestions will never happen, and one telling me they're already happening. I don't even know who to argue with.

[RollerManic]

I dont see why there's so much arguing in this thread. Its simple. If you have a legit disability, your doctor will hive you a note. DONE. This doesn't discrimate or weed out any truely handicapped person (of whom you should be if using the ADA line).

[scottm13]

This is great, I have one person telling me my suggestions will never happen, and one telling me they're already happening. I don't even know who to argue with.

What are you even arguing for/against anymore?

[Jew]

I dont see why there's so much arguing in this thread. Its simple. If you have a legit disability, your doctor will hive you a note. DONE. This doesn't discrimate or weed out any truely handicapped person (of whom you should be if using the ADA line).

 

It's not that simple though. It's easy for us as able bodied individuals to say it is no big deal because it's not something we have to deal with and we assume it is a hassle free process. Imagine if you had to provide a doctors note to visit every park just to prove you were healthy enough to ride?

 

It has no impact on me because if I am visiting SFMM (my local park), I am probably not riding much. If I am on vacation, I'm buying a Q-bot. But I do hate seeing this being written off as something so simple when it is actually far from it.

[neil009]

This is great, I have one person telling me my suggestions will never happen, and one telling me they're already happening. I don't even know who to argue with.

What are you even arguing for/against anymore?

 

My whole point was there is a line, a reasonable way of weeding out abuse, and an unreasonable one. Based on the image you were describing, it sounded much more like an operations/infrastructure problem on Six Flags' part rather than, uh, a moral failing on the part of all humanity? Everyone else on this thread is ready to jump on the "people are sh*t" bandwagon, but in my experience people just aren't generally dishonest to that degree unless they're practically encouraged to be. Even if Six Flags has taken the (again, reasonable) steps I've outlined, as you say they have, I still find it hard to believe there's nothing else they can do, because as I've repeatedly said, does any other park have the problem to this degree? And I mean parks on the scale of your average Six Flags park, not Disney and other heavy-hitters that draw the biggest crowds in the world every year. Does Kings Dominion see lines at the ADA entrance out the wazoo? Does Dollywood?

 

But regardless of any justification you can name, I still don't see this measure being reasonable at all. Six Flags has to obey the same rules as any other private business. People with disabilities have the right to enjoy the same opportunities, with the same ease of access, as those without disabilities. That's the entire point of the ADA. And yes, there's a big difference between requiring you to have a note prepared before you arrive, and requiring you to walk across the park and sign a form promising you're not lying. Don't believe me, why don't you ask all those families who will show up next year without reading the new policy first. Their fault for not reading the website before they go? Do you read through the policies every year before you go, just to see if anything has changed? How often do you sign something without reading the fine print? "Scroll to the bottom to click I AGREE", sound familiar? What makes you better or more deserving than anybody else? Are you aware of your own privilege?

 

And maybe I'd be more willing to slide Six Flags the benefit of the doubt here if they weren't such a shitty company but they are. They price gauge their costumers, half the time their employees run around like chickens with their heads cut off, the properties aren't maintained well, they buy low-capacity rides and under staff them and then pay someone to stand there and sell drinks to the people waiting in line. They represent a lot of what's wrong in the amusement industry and now, once again, they seem to have found themselves on the wrong side of an issue.

[scottm13]

This is great, I have one person telling me my suggestions will never happen, and one telling me they're already happening. I don't even know who to argue with.

What are you even arguing for/against anymore?

 

My whole point was there is a line, a reasonable way of weeding out abuse, and an unreasonable one. Based on the image you were describing, it sounded much more like an operations/infrastructure problem on Six Flags' part rather than, uh, a moral failing on the part of all humanity? Everyone else on this thread is ready to jump on the "people are sh*t" bandwagon, but in my experience people just aren't generally dishonest to that degree unless they're practically encouraged to be. Even if Six Flags has taken the (again, reasonable) steps I've outlined, as you say they have, I still find it hard to believe there's nothing else they can do, because as I've repeatedly said, does any other park have the problem to this degree? And I mean parks on the scale of your average Six Flags park, not Disney and other heavy-hitters that draw the biggest crowds in the world every year. Does Kings Dominion see lines at the ADA entrance out the wazoo? Does Dollywood?

 

And yes, another big reason that this is magnified at Six Flags parks is because of their poor operations and unorganized access points. Which is why they have to take more drastic measures to fix it instead of re-structuring most of their ride platforms and access points.

 

But regardless of any justification you can name, I still don't see this measure being reasonable at all. Six Flags has to obey the same rules as any other private business. People with disabilities have the right to enjoy the same opportunities, with the same ease of access, as those without disabilities. That's the entire point of the ADA. And yes, there's a big difference between requiring you to have a note prepared before you arrive, and requiring you to walk across the park and sign a form promising you're not lying. Don't believe me, why don't you ask all those families who will show up next year without reading the new policy first. Their fault for not reading the website before they go? Do you read through the policies every year before you go, just to see if anything has changed? How often do you sign something without reading the fine print? "Scroll to the bottom to click I AGREE", sound familiar? What makes you better or more deserving than anybody else? Are you aware of your own privilege?

 

And maybe I'd be more willing to slide Six Flags the benefit of the doubt here if they weren't such a shitty company but they are. They price gauge their costumers, half the time their employees run around like chickens with their heads cut off, the properties aren't maintained well, they buy low-capacity rides and under staff them and then pay someone to stand there and sell drinks to the people waiting in line. They represent a lot of what's wrong in the amusement industry and now, once again, they seem to have found themselves on the wrong side of an issue.

The reason that this happens at Six Flags parks and not at others is because of the clientele that they attract. Believe it or not, but the people that go to Dollywood or Holiday World are a bit different than those who visit Six Flags parks. You keep saying that there's got to be another way, but all of the "other ways" that you've mentioned are already in place and obviously not helping. Did you look at the video I posted? That's what a busy day looks like for EAP pass holders at SFGAm. While yes, it will stink for those who aren't informed and are turned away because of the new policy, but in the long run, it will be better for everyone.

 

But it seems like you've got some issues with Six Flags as a whole, so no matter what they try and do to fix this issue, it won't work for you.

[neil009]

Ah, the ol' "Six Flags attracts poor people and minorities" saw. I don't buy that either. All parks attract an extremely diverse clientele, the only possible exceptions would be tiny parks like Knoebels that cater mainly to locals and resort parks like Disney World that cater only to those rich enough to even consider going.

 

As long as Six Flags is alone in this policy, you can bet honest people will continue to get caught by it and have their day ruined (assuming it's even enforced consistently). The problem is, I don't honestly think Six Flags cares, because like any big corporation, their primary motivator is money, and there's no monetary reason to care. That's why laws like the ADA have to exist, because these companies aren't going to care about marginalized groups out of the goodness of their black, capitalist hearts.

[scottm13]

^You must not travel often because I can tell you that the people that visit SFA is far different from the people that visit CP or Dollywood. I don't think anyone other than you is going to make that argument.

 

Six Flags obviously does care, because almost every year of the past five years there's been a major change in their ADA pass program. Believe it or not, but SF actually does care about the scores that they receive from the surveys they send out, which would be pretty apparent if you listened to their quarterly conference calls. Where they always bring up their Guest Satisfaction Scores. The EAP pass abuse was one of the biggest complaints year over year on those surveys which is why they're trying everything they can to cut down on the abuse. And yes, that's because when people are happier, they'll spend more money and visit more often, which will feed their "black capitalist hearts."

[Garet]

I don't know if you can put it all on what clientele Six Flags attracts though. People of all types will abuse the system. At Disney wasn't it people with a lot of money who were abusing the system? And here in Asia, I've seen the majority of queue jumpers are the families. Lines here are regularly over an hour long even for family rides and so one person will hold the line for his whole family.

 

I almost got beaten up by a queue jumper who lined up by himself and constantly rang his family to tell them he wasn't at the station yet. They skipped a whole 80 minute line and when I wouldn't let them pass they lied and said it was because the children needed the bathroom to the staff (for 80 minutes apparently). Management told me they hand out passes to leave the line at the entrance to let people leave the line but since it's right at the start of the queue people can hop out after 10 seconds and come back 80 minutes later and push past everyone. If families abuse it, they can't really stop families and ask them why they took so long in the bathroom or accuse them of lying about where they were they just have to accept it and hope for the best. It's a bit of a Catch 22 for a park in that kind of situation.

 

My point being different parks have different people who will abuse it and if they find a way they will do it no matter what. I'm sure if Six Flags ask for a doctors note, the people who are already abusing the system will easily get a fake note somewhere. I agree that you see different types of clientele at different parks but you'll always find a bad minority even in places such as Cedar Point or Dollywood.

[DirkFunk]

I can count on one hand parks I've visited with as many ECVs as Dollywood or SDC, and they aren't going with a policy resembling this. Count me with Neil, generally speaking.

[Cj1990]

I thought there were laws against parks obtaining this type of information from guests? Apparently not though lol

[ejot]

That does seem to be the spirit of the law, but it's far from clear cut. Laws and court decisions work hand-in-hand: the former are often imprecise regarding particular situations until challenged. Then court decisions themselves formulate the precedents for the how the laws function in real life.

 

Six Flags has a team of lawyers who pore over all the technicalities of ADA, so that they can formulate the details of a policy that has the best chance of standing up in court. So the answer to your question is currently not well defined. If they get challenged in court, we may find out.

[Comeagain?]

There's a big reason they emphasize that the note NOT include the nature of the disability, only say that it exists.

[Jew]

However, it is a very grey area. By having the doctors name and office information, one could argue that is a violation of the privacy granted under HIPAA because Six Flags can google the doctors information and then make assumptions.

 

I am sure Six Flags lawyers think they are in the clear. However, I am also sure there will be another lawyer out there who will chase the money and challenge them. I am just interested in the outcome, since this is something that would be groundbreaking for the whole industry.

[michaellynn4]

I am sure Six Flags lawyers think they are in the clear. However, I am also sure there will be another lawyer out there who will chase the money and challenge them. I am just interested in the outcome, since this is something that would be groundbreaking for the whole industry.

 

I, too, am very interested in the outcome and how far it progresses in the legal system. Could you imagine if it makes it all the way to the Supreme Court?

[Jew]

Doubt it will. Six Flags would likely settle and change the policy instead of a lengthy legal defense where lots of their dirty laundry would be aired out.