Is "Forcefulness" Really What Makes a B&M Good?

[simaticable]

I think a B&M doesn't need to be Intamin levels forceful, but it shouldn't have the ability to be so boring that people just fall asleep by the brake run. There needs to be stuff that keeps you guessing until you hit the brakes. There also needs to have a great sense of speed.

[XYZ]

Forceless coasters is what makes B&M really lame, in my opinion. Silver Bullet is at my home park and I only ride it during season pass ERT because I really have no want to go on it. Silver Bullet is pretty boring and I would have no feeling of sadness if Cedar Fair decides to remove it from Knott's.

 

Whenever I go to SFMM or CGA, I almost always ride their invert there since it is fun and exciting. After going on so many coasters, you don't feel the forceless coasters at all, but you definitely feel the forceful ones.

 

Forcefulness is DEFINITELY what makes a B&M good.

[AusCoasterFan]

It's funny, I was thinking about this the other day in light of reading the large amounts of complaining about the wing coasters and more force-less B&Ms built in recent times. To be honest, I think there is more than just high Gs that make a coaster. I've ridden one wing rider (Swarm) and I loved it, and I've ridden Silver Bullet and thought it was great among some other so called "force-less coasters". They both offer a great flying experience instead of just high Gs and I don't mind this at all. In regards to wing coasters, I love the concept, and don't understand the hate. I don't think they can be built in a manner making them more forceful. Wingriders are just not designed in a way to accommodate high Gs.

[IronWolfman]

^I agree with this a lot. Especially the wing coaster part.

 

I don't really think "forcefulness" is the right word. It is certainly a part of the subject, but I think a better term would be "inspiration". Most (if not all) of B&M's early designs had little quirks in their layouts that made they're rides have a great sense of pacing. Here are some examples of what I'm talking about.

 

-Kumba's ground-hugging flat section just before the cobra roll.

-Raptor's level piece of track between the zero-g roll and the cobra roll.

-Apollo's Chariot's pre-drop, flat sections at the bottom of the valley, and double-dip finale.

-Georgia Scorcher's 90 degree camelback leading into the corkscrew.

-Dragon Challenge's wrap-around immelmann

-even Talon's ground-level/airtime hill finale.

 

These are just a few examples, but I hope you get the point. These little details helped make the rides more complete experiences. The designs were just more quickly paced as well. The recent B&Ms have the force, but they lack the inspiration and quick pace, especially the hyper coasters. For example, despite the fact that Diamondback happens to be one of my favorite steel coasters, I admit that the layout is really static with its nothing-but-giant-camelbacks formula.

 

I do think that B&M seems to be bringing back some personality into their coasters. Leviathan shows some inspiration in its speed-hills and high-speed overbanks. Hair Raiser has its surprise airtime hill. B&M doesn't necessarily need to push the envelope as much as Intamin does to compete, but I would like to see them add some quirks back in their designs again.

 

This also pretty much sums up my opinion. Another quirk could be Iron Wolf/Apocalypse's flat section just before the second half. It gives you breather from the first half's intensity then quickly throws you into the corkscrew's twisty-ness.

[gerstlaueringvar]

Force is one of the many factors. B&M is also famous for their capacity, reliability and smoothness. But I think everything has changed except for capacity these year.

 

I would like to say something about the reliability and smoothness as well although it's off topic. From my experience on some newer B&Ms, roughness and the reliability of GateKeeper actually surprised me a lot. GateKeeper is apparently too rough for a new coaster! And it broke down really often. For the force factor of GateKeeper, I was actually having a coaster dream about New Texas Giant! It was soooo boring and I just cannot waste my time on it at a park with something like MaveSHARK and TTD. Sure, roughness has something to do with the park's maintenance work as well, but it is mostly about the quality of the ride. A bad Vekoma looper with painful transitions is a bad Vekoma looper no matter how much money you paied to maintain it unless you decide to re track or change the train/restraint. B&M might want to improve the quality of their coasters now.

 

Also, when was the last time B&M created something new?

[dropzonefan]

Considering a batman clone (Le Vampire, La Ronde), is #1 on my top 5 steel coAsters, and all the new B&Ms I've ridden barely make the list, I'd say yes. For me, forces pretty much are the main way I judge a ride... Not forceful, no good.

 

Hope with stuff like Banchee @ KI, they might make a comeback.

[arby]

I don't agree that the new B&Ms are 'forceless' but I do understand where people are coming from. For example, at Carowinds we have an old school and a new school B&M. I can ride Intimidator about 10 times without getting off before I need a short break whereas I can only ride Afterburn about 2 times before I have to get off and take a break. My body is telling me Intimidator has forces, just less.

 

I also understand why typically younger people often rank force as their top factor for a coaster. In my early 20s in the Marine Corps I got to do some fast roping and was lucky enough to ride on the rope a few times under a helo flying 100+mph through the air... it was a huge thrill and exhilarating. That would be too much for me now.

 

So for me now, forcefulness is not one of the top factors that I consider for a good coaster although it still is one of my factors.

[Dr. M]

If "forcefulness" doesn't make a B&M good, what does? On a ride you already know is going to be smooth, comfortable, well-engineered, and have a variety of elements, what other criteria is there to judge it on? At least relative to other B&Ms? If forcefulness doesn't make a ride good for you then I guess you must like all B&Ms equally since they've never made a "bad" coaster, just ones that are boring and ones that are exciting. Personally I prefer the exciting ones.

[Loefet]

I think there are multiple things that make for a good B&M. Forcefulness is important, but many new B&Ms are forceful while still feeling less thrilling and interesting. I think what is important is not only how forceful a maneuver is, but the sense or fear that an element is being taken much faster than it should be. Basically fast pacing, which defines rides such as the batman clones or montu.

 

All older B&Ms may seem to take their elements so much more quickly than newer ones, which they do to an extent. But not only are they just MOVING faster, the transitions are much faster and have more a precise and deliberate feel to them. Just look at the difference between the Cobra Roll on alpengeist and the one on silver bullet for example, alpengiest flies in and out of it, and there is just a tension and precision about the way it moves through the element. On the other hand SB doesnt move quite as fast through its cobra roll, and the shaping is much looser and curvier, like it was built around having the smoothest possible transitions.

 

Also Every change in force on an older B&M is quick enough to catch you off guard, and you can feel the contrast from when it is doing something forceful from when it isnt. Instead of easing into a turn or any force, it will slam into it out of nowhere. I mean newer B&Ms have plenty of forces but you would never know because of how long it takes to ease into that force or transition. The best b&ms are the ones that tread the fine line between snappiness while maintaining rider comfort. It seems that every new b&M is comfort oriented as opposed to pacing oriented.

 

To provide some examples-

 

Cobra roll-

 

Tight

Loose

 

Corkscrew into turn-

 

Precise

Fluid

 

First drop

 

Good

Bad

 

Other examples

 

Abrupt changes in forces and direction

Slow boring "forceless" turning and transitions

 

EDIT: The easiest way for you to see what I mean about all this is to compare the kumba pov from tpr to a pov of led zeppelin the ride.

This post really sums it up pretty good, the differences that is.

 

We all love the old B&M's which are said to be "forcefull" compared to the newer ones that are to be considered "forceless". Thing is though, all B&M:s produce the same kinds of forces (sure some of them are pretty weak , but still). The difference is progress of computers and fabrication. With the help of more powerful computers and more precise manufacturing methods B&M have improved their designs so that the transitions between all elements are "perfect" instead of pretty blunt in their earlier designs. These perfect transitions between the forces makes the newer rides feel "forceless", even though it hit's the same 4-4.5 g's as the rest of them. So you can all just blame progress..

[arby]

^^most of the b&m hypers are all about the same for me and in reality should share a single number in my top 25. It has gotten to the point that I can't differentiate most of them and classify them all as 'fun.' I don't think forcefulness plays into any of those. I have only been on one wing rider so far so I don't have any opinions on those.

[Aceattack52]

^ Well, some do have more airtime than others. Goliath at SFOG has a TON more airtime and only one trim. As apposed to Intimidator at Carowinds, which has three trims and a little light on airtime.

[arby]

To me, intimidator has the most floater air time of any B&M hyper that I have ridden. I still think they all (the hypers I have ridden) are pretty much equal on overall forcefulness including my sentimental favorite, Intimidator.

[yay101]

Good question

 

For me, forces are what makes some B&Ms, like a floorless or invert, great. As for dive coasters and flying coasters, I don't mind if there are no forces because I feel the ride is designed to be fun and scary and not for forces. Hypercoasters for me need to be forceful but only for airtime.

[A.J.]

I don't dislike any B&M coasters at all. In fact, the thing that I like about the "new-school" B&Ms is that they're incredibly re-rideable.

[SFOGdude25]

I gotta hand it to B&M, though. They are one of the most loved and respected companies in the industry because of their super-reliable track record, and they stand out among competitors for that very reason. The fact is that the GP love their coasters because they are so smooth and comfortable to ride. In my mind, I've never ridden a truly bad B&M. Their recent coasters may not have the "spunk" their old designs had, but I still find them to be very enjoyable.

[Randomman295]

Wow, this thread just came back from the dead out of nowhere.

 

Since creating the thread I've ridden SFFT's Goliath, which (holy hell) is easily the most forceful coaster I've ever been on and I can only assume that all of the other 7-car inverts fall along the same path.

It was uncomfortable and not enjoyable TBH, and contrasted with Krypton Coaster across the park (lofty, relatively forceless comparatively), which IMO was a lot more interesting and re-ridable because the sensible spacing between high-force elements gave the riders "breathing time".

Call me a wuss because I grey out easily, but honestly, constant high-g sections upwards of 5 solid seconds is definitely a way to knock down a coaster a few spots on the scoreboard for me.

[BenFreeze]

I gotta hand it to B&M, though. They are one of the most loved and respected companies in the industry because of their super-reliable track record, and they stand out among competitors for that very reason. The fact is that the GP love their coasters because they are so smooth and comfortable to ride. In my mind, I've never ridden a truly bad B&M. Their recent coasters may not have the "spunk" their old designs had, but I still find them to be very enjoyable.

 

Couldn't agree more. I enjoy forceful coasters, but I don't think a coaster needs to be forceful to be a great ride. Many of my top coasters definitely wouldn't be considered the most forceful ones out there, but after all, I'm a coaster enthusiast because I love roller coasters, not because I love g-forces.

[gerstlaueringvar]

Do Maverick and Outlaw Run have a lot of positive G force like Batman? No. Do a lot of people rank it higher than most or all B&Ms? Yes. The problem is about the creativity and uniqueness. It seems like B&M stopped creating new things from a long time ago already.

[arby]

I'm a coaster enthusiast because I love roller coasters, not because I love g-forces.

 

Truth.

[Dr. M]

Do Maverick and Outlaw Run have a lot of positive G force like Batman? No. Do a lot of people rank it higher than most or all B&Ms? Yes. The problem is about the creativity and uniqueness. It seems like B&M stopped creating new things from a long time ago already.

 

I don't think it's just an issue of creativity. Look at Hydra, on paper it has a very unique layout, and the inversions are all shaped really oddly. Still a really boring ride. To me it really is an issue of intensity, plain and simple, regardless of whether it's positive or negative Gs. Make Hydra's lift hill maybe thirty feet taller, give it some speed, take all the elements quicker, and then you'd really have something.

[netdvn]

What makes any coaster great all boils down to layout, pacing, and elements that make it stand out. I've ridden a handful of B&Ms like that, but I've ridden B&Ms that were sorta lackluster too. Forcefulness is sorta an icing on the cake for me. A forceful coaster that combines great elements will rank higher than a plain vanilla coaster with great elements. I really liked Manta and Montu because they're pretty intense and combine great layout and pacing with intense forces. I got off those coasters thinking wow!

 

Strangely enough, I didn't really find Kumba as forceful as people say it is. Maybe it's just me or maybe I caught it on an off day. Other than a pop of airtime here and there, it didn't feel as intense as Montu was.

[Canobie Coaster]

I love B&Ms because of their rerideability. I could marathon most B&Ms all day. They're usually glass smooth and have great layouts. The only exceptions for me are SFGAdv's Bizarro (I find that ride pretty rough) and the stand-ups.

 

I especially love their hyper coasters. While most of their hyper coasters may have similar layouts as opposed to Intamin's which often have more variety, I'm a sucker for the constant stream of air-time hills. After Skyrush, Apollo's Chariot, Behemoth, and Nitro are 2, 3, and 4 for me on my top steel coaster list.

[A.J.]

Do Maverick and Outlaw Run have a lot of positive G force like Batman? No. Do a lot of people rank it higher than most or all B&Ms? Yes. The problem is about the creativity and uniqueness. It seems like B&M stopped creating new things from a long time ago already.

Have you not seen Heide Park's new coaster, Flying Over the Rainforest, Hair Raiser, Sky Scrapper/Ripper, Oziris or the Gardaland Raptor? Those layouts are absurdly creative and I want to ride every one of them.

[Dr. M]

^And according to popular consensus, you'll probably be disappointed.

[Invertalon]

As a big fan of Silver Bullet (probably considered one of the "tamest" B&M's from what I hear), I don't need extreme forces to make a ride fun. It is a variety of the elements on the ride, surroundings, among others. While B&M's like Kumba, Batman the Ride and Montu are great rides, those are all lower on my personal list.

 

I *love* aggressive rides as well... But it is all about balance for me.

 

Skyrush and I305 *by design* do not appeal to me at all. I have yet to ride those two so while they may be top rides, this is just speculation... Sadly, Intamin has changed their design style on most new rides (aside from the mega-lites, which look fantastic) and its a bit sad. I really miss the designs of 2000, such as the SROS's, MF, Expedition GeForce, Goliath, etc... There is a reason many of those remain top rides to this day. I don't see Skyrush and I305 having the same impact as those, even with being much more intense, twisty, etc... Great for the intensity enthusiasts, but not as well-rounded as their old stuff.

 

I feel B&M continues to push the envelope with recent designs, while still keeping the rides very versatile force wise. This is a reason people love/hate them so much I think. But this is why competition is good, we get a nice variety in the industry! I love B&M and Intamin, but I just wish Intamin went back to creating those epic designs from 15 years ago. I miss those. Those layouts just had great appeal, visually, that you just knew they would be fantastic rides. Today, I don't get that same impression when I see the new designs.