Apollo's chariot pumping on first drop?

[ginzo]

Uh... comó se what?

 

I do know that Raging Bull gives quite the back massage at the bottom of all the hills, though. Does that count? And it's actually getting bothersome and nearly rough.

 

Last time I rode the Bull the drop under the lift was unusually rough for a Beemer.

 

I rode it in the back seat twice in August, and it ran great. No roughness, or abnormal movements.

[pvcoasterguy]

Every year, Raging Bull's valleys seem to get worse. This rings especially true for the drop under the lift--that one is noticibly bad.

 

I can only hope that the roughness does not continue to develop, as the ride becomes less and less enjoyable for me as it becomes rougher. I have no idea why it has been especially bad recently, but hopefully it will get better.

 

Bull is just very shaky at the bottoms of all the hills. The rest of the ride is fine, but the bottoms of the hills are horrible.

[viking86]

Many steel coasters develops vibrations as they age. This goes for both B&M's and Intamins. Its all a question of maintenance. When I rode Katun last year, they were running two trains and one of them gave a very smooth ride while the other had quite alot of vibrations.

[Gnome]

I can only hope that the roughness does not continue to develop, as the ride becomes less and less enjoyable for me as it becomes rougher. I have no idea why it has been especially bad recently, but hopefully it will get better

Usually when it gets towards the end of the season all coaster cars start to do this. For example Silver Bullet's trains go into the annual full inspection re-hab, and when they come back its as smooth as heck because they re-adjusted everything, and nothing is partially loose. But when you get towards October, there is a lot of shuffling on the track and other vibrations.

So its not really because of age, but more because its been awhile since all the parts of the trains were tightened up.

[stormrider]

I've noticed that when riding in a car, the driver sometimes does the pumping style turn. It's like when there is a curve in the road, the driver follows the curve but sometimes can't hold the steering wheel still, so the turn radius is moved away from. So, there's pumping when turning on the freeway, so I don't see what's so bad about it in real life other than it looks weird.

[Jew]

It's threads like this that remind me why I wish I could take back my first year as an "enthusiast." When I would have known WTF pumping is. Which I still don't entirely get.

[pvcoasterguy]

But I highly doubt Raging Bull's problem is maintainence. It is the only B&M at SFGAm that does that. Why this B&M in particular? If it was lax maintainence, wouldn't the vibrations occur on the other B&M's in the park?

 

Iron Wolf- Opened 1991- Headbanging, yes. Weird vibrations? No.

Batman: The Ride- Opened 1993- The ride is still as smooth as glass, with no vibrations whatsoever.

Raging Bull- Opened 1999- A smooth ride, but vibrations are bothersome at the bottom of some hills.

Superman: Ultimate Escape- Opened 2002- No problems here.

 

In fact, I believe that Six Flags Great America has one of the best maintainence crews of any park in the chain. American Eagle and Viper are kept smooth and well-oiled throughout the years, flat rides get off-season rehabs to prevent SFMM-esque closures, Whizzer, the only ride of its kind still operating in America still works flawlessly and sports three trains. How is this bad maintainence?

 

I just can't believe that the reason for these vibrations is Great America's fault.

[Ccron10]

I think when they mean pumping they mean that when your going through a U-turn half of it is normal but when you get to the other half the turn gets tighter and produces more G's. Am I right?

[Calvin]

If you have No Limits, you might notice it when you're riding in the backseat through a helix. The front cars might "jerk" up in the middle of it. Generally, a pump is something you don't want, and it's not usually intentional. It's not just a shift in the radius it's an unnatural shift in the radius.

[pkdcoaster]

Iron Wolf- Opened 1991- Headbanging, yes. Weird vibrations? No.

Batman: The Ride- Opened 1993- The ride is still as smooth as glass, with no vibrations whatsoever.

Raging Bull- Opened 1999- A smooth ride, but vibrations are bothersome at the bottom of some hills.

Superman: Ultimate Escape- Opened 2002- No problems here.

 

IW was 1990

Batman was 1992

Superman was 2003

 

Apollo or Nitro does not have any problems like this in the valleys.

I would say this Bull roughness has to do with maintenance.

 

Apollo was meant to "glide" across the water FTR.

 

JEFF

[willski]

Wow, honestly, roller coasters do not pump in theory. Maybe you think AC pumps, or Jaguar pumps, or some older wooden coaster pumps. I can assure you that, even if the pump is there, the pump was not incorporated into the design.

 

 

Pumps are a result of manufacturing flaws, not design flaws. For example, an old wooden coaster is just a bunch of lines and contstant radii curves with no lead-ins as viewed from above. Now, perhaps some of those turns pump, but it is not because the designer created it that way, it is because the on site workers aren't perfect, so small track imperfections develop.

 

 

Jaguar could be an imperfection is the joining of running rails to the crossties, or it could just be that the radius of the turn is tightening, which is not pumping. A fair coaster might have pumping because of its constant re/de-construction.

 

 

As for the drop off the MCBR on AC, there is something wrong there. Not pumping, but I think the alignment of the rails is a bit off. The train in the back few rows does this violent vibrating thing, which also was happening on Goliath at SFoG in some of the drops when the trains were new and also later in the year when the wheels were getting worn. SFNERules, I think it's just a wheel problem really. It's very violent, but it has all of the characteristics of a lopsided or worn running wheel.

 

 

 

For some reason, B&M Hypers get these weird vibrations at high speeds in pullouts. It seems almost as if the wheels should be reformulated to handle higher speeds. AC had it on a few drops in its 5th year (1st, 3rd a little, and definately the drop off the MCBR) and Goliath had it on the first two drops in its opening year (which never got totally better, I might add).

[stormrider]

I just realized that a pump would only get into the track if the designer chose to. I think they use a simple "this turn has this radius" which is simpler than "this turn has a radius of X and at this point switches to Y". No Limits isn't real life, so I don't think there really is pumping to the extent seen in the game in real life.

[Calvin]

Wow, honestly, roller coasters do not pump in theory. Maybe you think AC pumps, or Jaguar pumps, or some older wooden coaster pumps. I can assure you that, even if the pump is there, the pump was not incorporated into the design.

 

Of course it was not incorporated into the design. I do not think that a company would incorporate such a mistake into the design of the roller coaster. I am just saying that a fault in the construction of the coaster, notably wooden, could lead to pumping. Wooden coasters are built on-site.

 

Some coasters are just built badly or cheaply. That is all that I am saying.

[Vekoma Fan Boy]

I think I'm starting to somewhat understand what you're talking about.

 

Just what baffles me is how many people are refering to "pumping" as this super obvious term.

 

Do you just mean a hill that changes the rate at which it changes direction?

 

 

That's a double down.

 

 

As for dodonpa, No that isn't pumping. Thought it creats a dramatic changs in forces *cough* from what iv'e heard, nut crushing ejector airtime *cough*

 

A pump is basically a deformality in the track design.

[DCs221]

Apollo's Chariot definately does have a pump at the base of the drop off the MCBR. That section of track has a small radius, which increases near the bottom, and decreases again as it nears the inflection point. B&M have the most sophisticated shaping of any company...that WAS intentional.

 

The flat section on the bottom of the first drop is not a pump. The pullout of the first drop has a leadout to the flat section down there, then there's a leadin, and the pullup to the first camelback. That is not one continuous curve.

 

The pullout immediately after the MCBR was probably done be either to reduce the duration of G's and at the same time increase the intensity of each "pump," but it could also be just to switch up the fluent up and down motion on most hills on the ride. Another very plausible explanation is to stretch out the track so the subsequent drop would end up directly over the water. AC seems pretty stretched out in general, mostly because of the unique terrain. I'm sure you agree it would make more sense to stretch out a fast pullout than increase the length of the MCBR where the train is travelling relatively slow.

 

I guarantee you, that feature was done purposely. The vibrations, which are also evident on Nitro toward the back (I've been on that ride over 70 times), are from wear, most likely on the train (as front row rides can still be smooth as silk). Track shaping has not changed enough to be perceptible without some sophisticated instruments.

 

Been on Apollo 136 times, Nitro 70+, and Raging Bull 7. I understand exactly what pumping is, and I have extensive knowledge of track shaping in NL. Trust that what I've said is correct, other than the reasons for the shaping at the bottom of the drops, which are just educated guesses.

[Satoshi]

if Apollo's chariot had got a pump in the drop i would say 'heck no!'

some kinda pumps gonna make ride more rough!

[viking86]

^^You forgot the "extreme pumping" on the turn after the final brakerun

[DCs221]

Correct viking86.

 

If pumping is done purposely and is smooth, there's no reason for it to be bad. Infact, it is a clever technique that can be very useful if implemented properly, as seen on B&Ms and Intamins.

 

Why in the world should coasters be made of all circular segments? That's neglecting an infinite amount of shapes that could create some amazing sensations.

 

Another example of "pumping" is the bottom of SROS SFNE's drop... the radius is relatively small, then increases toward the bottom, and tightens a lot at the very end. If you're going faster, like at the bottom of the drop, doesn't it only make sense to have a larger radius? Plus, the last little radius tightening at the end of the pullup is very exciting, as it creates some unexpected g's. That, along with the tiny leadout of that pullout, makes this pullout much more exciting than it could be as just a regular circular pullout with a leadin/leadout.

[Edwardo]

I've never heard the term Pumping before, and although I understand what you guys mean by it, can someone explain is that a technical term used by engineers, or just a term by NoLimits fans?

[DCs221]

I *think* it was a term describing the more technical definition dealing with radius changes along a curve, most likely used by one person and then spreading to others, until it was a common term. Not sure of that, but I do know I've never heard of a manufacturer referring to "pumping."