Six Flags St. Louis (SFStL) Discussion Thread

[HWFan]

I can possibly make a trip down to the park around May 16th-19th. Could Justice League possibly be open by this time? How would the crowds be? Would it be a good time to go?

 

My home park is Great America and I know that schools make trips around that time to the park. Is it the same case here?

Also normally rides are not running at full capacity, how does St Louis do about this?

 

A team member at Heroes vs Villians gave me an opening date of May 24th which I thought was odd because that's a Sunday. As far as full capacity, I was at the park this past Sunday and Batman and Ninja were both running two trains. The Boss was running at least two trains. The American Thunder was down to one train. I didn't see the other American Thunder train on the transfer track, so I'm guessing it's out for maintenance or some awesome Got 2 Be hair gel advertising wrap.

 

YES! There is still hope for it to be open on May 21st!

This is exactly why there is not an official opening date for the ride yet. Unfortunately it sounds like some team members are saying more than they are supposed to. Even if you tell yourself that it might not be open yet, you're still going to be disappointed when it isn't open that day. All I can say is, don't get your hopes up.....seriously....don't.

 

And Sunday isn't really a weird day to open it, at least no weirder than any other day of the week. In this case, it's basically, "we're working our butts off to get the ride open as soon as possible" and while everything is still on schedule, testing just started at SFOT and will be getting started here soon, so a lot can happen. The media haven't even been given a tentative day or even a timeframe.

 

Just be careful, as I don't want anyone to be disappointed or to plan a trip to the park until an official opening has been announced.

[HWFan]

Hi all, been lurking here for ages but figured it was about time to sign up. So I made my second trip to SFSL today and the progress on the JLBFM facade looked great. You can really tell what it's going to look like now. I know this has been raised before (way in the past), but now that the ride is getting close to completion, I'm still wondering about the capacity. It's pretty simple math: if the ride is 3:20 long, and there's a 40 second load/unload time, each car cycles through the ride once every 4 minutes, which is 15 times per hour. 15 cycles per car per hr x 6 riders/car x 7 cars = 630 riders per hour.

 

For comparison's sake:

Pandemonium: 1400 riders per hour (per Wikipedia) I don't know the number of trains or the ride length, so I can't check this number.

The Boss: 960 riders per hour (Wikipedia says 1400, but that would require running 3 trains, which never happens). 2 trains x 20 cycles per train per hr * 24 riders per train = 960 riders per hour. This assumes the load/unload time is "pipelined" meaning as soon as one train pulls in, the next one leaves, so the load/unload time can be ignored. If trains have to wait, the capacity would be reduced, but that doesn't happen often in my experience.

American Thunder: 2 trains x 24 riders per train * 18 trains cycles per train per hour = 864 riders per hour (Wikipedia says 850 so I''m close)

 

So JLBFM is going to have a ride capacity significantly lower than other major SFSL rides. Should I just get on line now to have a hope of getting on it when it opens?

 

Seriously, if it turns out to be really popular, this is going to be a serious problem. At 630 riders per hour, if SFSL is open from 10:30 am through 9 pm, that's 10.5 hours, which means no more than 6,615 people can ride it in any given day, and that's assuming they all get on line at once when the park opens, or at least evenly space themselves out throughout the day at exactly 630 riders per hour. If, as seems more likely, the majority of attendees arrive in the afternoon and leave after a few hours, the problem becomes far worse. Does anyone know what the average attendance is at SFSL per day? I mean, it isn't an issue with the Boss or even American Thunder because not everybody rides those rides -- and they also have significantly greater ride capacity than JLBFM. But if this ride becomes insanely popular, I think they are going to have to give out return tickets for anyone to actually get on it in a reasonable way, and if daily attendance exceeds 6,615, the excess of people won't be able to ride it at all (and again, that assumes people are evenly spaced out over time when trying to board the ride, which won't be the case).

 

If this ride succeeds at attracting increased attendance, there could well be a lot of upset people.

I had very similar thoughts as the ones you've laid out. While the average attendance varies greatly over the course of the season, park attendance posting/spreading is one of the things that will actually get you terminated quickly. Most all parks keep it fairly secretive (for example, everyone with a radio at HW will cover it or mute it at the same time each hour, if they're in front of Guests, when they hear the attendance is about to be announced). I can't remember what the numbers are off the top of my head, but CW's Wonder Mountain Guardian, BGW's Tempesto, and even the new dark ride at Knott's Berry Farm would look far worse than your calculated capacity when you take in to account how huge those parks are.

 

It's interesting that the park's predictions for the ride's wait time is approximately the same for very busy days and lower-attendance weekdays. The reason is that the longer wait a ride accrues, the less people get in line for that attraction. I'm sure there are coasters that you'll stop and ride if there is a less than 5 minute line, but if the line gets to be more than even 15 or 30 minutes, you skip it.

 

Another great example is Disneyland Park or the Magic Kingdom. Neither park has a single attraction that can be ridden by every single Guest that visits in a day (especially during peak season), even with some attractions eating over 4,000 guests per hour. Compared to Scooby, this ride will be an increase, and even if there was always a 15min wait, I would say that easily half the Guests that visit in any given day wouldn't ride it at all. Finally, in any park with a high volume of season pass holders, that means that Guests who visit the park often may not ride it on super busy days, just waiting for slower times.

 

Should you go immediately to JLBM first thing in the morning? Yes. Will it have a long lines pretty much all the time? Yes. Is the effect of its capacity on the overall park's operation as bad as it sounds? No. It's gonna be a fantastic ride. Just bring some patience, soak up the A/C while in (most, if the short outdoor queue is used that day) line, and enjoy the ride! There's also a psychological thing where if you don't wait at all for something, you don't perceive it as being as good.

[TexasParkman]

Since I no longer work for SF I can share. If SFSTL had no more than 7000 per day- heads would roll. Back in the 70's it took 8000 to 9000 to break even at minimal operation. An average day at SFSTL should be around 14,000. 25,000 would be a busy day. 30,000 + is insane with the ride hours SF now racks up ( not good). Disney Parks- years ago- a fairly busy day is 45,000. 55,000 is a nicely busy day with decent waits. I was at NYE at the Disney Resort in Cali when the Fire Marshall closed the Park. I have heard that the number for closing the gates is around 77,000. I would not want to be there on such a day but I was. Not fun.

 

My number are based on old data and could be off today. I know when I worked at SFOMA we heard that SFOT had some 35,000 days and that it was insane. Shockwave was new with massive waits. I think in my years at SFOMA we had some high 20,000 days. When the Eagle was new and we had some very popular groups in for concerts.

 

I expect capacity to be low. I just rode Spiderman and Transformers in Orlando last month. Those lines were slow in standby. Universal and IOA keeps the lines moving better than SF- bit not as good as Disney IMHO. We did 5 days at Disney at 3 at Universal. I like Universal but I must honestly admit than Disney had better service, better prices and moved the lines better than their competition.

 

The reason is easy... greeters at the entrance to the ride- available for questions, presort and basically fix potential situations. Sorters at the ride platform. Fill every seat and ask guests to move quickly. OPs to manage guests getting on the ride- helps. Ops to help guests get off. SF may have 3 ops at the most on a ride platform. Disney would have 8 to 10. It does make a difference.

[HWFan]

^Things are definitely different now. Also, I didn't share such information for more reasons then I could get in trouble. The park has been good to me, so even if I was no longer an employee, I don't want to make them regret sharing any information with me.

 

One thing I will say is that if anyone is or knows someone who is looking at getting a job at the park, Guest Relations is the best place to apply, if you like learning about the business and how it runs overall. Training includes marketing, loss prevention, and other department meetings/presentations to make sure that everyone in GR has at least some background in what's going on around the park. The marketing meeting this year specifically made me very optimistic for the future of our park & company. (We are still hiring if anyone knows someone who may be interested.)

[SFSTLMO]

Is there a good possibility that JLBM could be open by May 29th, the night I am going to Children's Hospital night?

[RAWKIN_coaster38]

Why are employees not allowed to share the attendance numbers? Just curious.

[HWFan]

Why are employees not allowed to share the attendance numbers? Just curious.

I think that there are probably multiple reasons that go into it, but as it is a rule at almost every park, there must be some good ones.

 

One reason is just that a theme park's attendance is one of the most important business figures for a park. For Six Flags as a public company, if a lot of sketchy info regarding park attendance is being posted in different places, it could spook shareholders (like myself & my whopping six shares), especially when attendance can go down while the park is actually making more money due to increased spending per caps. This way, it allows the company to announce whether attendance is going up or down, in the form of a percentage figure, for the entire company at the same time as the other relevant information is announced as well. Plus, due to factors like weather & local politics, while one park could have attendance skyrocket during the first month, another could have attendance plummet. A description of this online could paint an inaccurate picture of the company online, even if the numbers themselves are true. Besides the shareholders, you don't want your competition knowing everything about you, even in such a friendly/fun industry.

 

Also, there can be security & safety reasons as well. While we are lucky that there hasn't been any large-scale attacks on any domestic park, the Department of Homeland Security actually put together some pretty in-depth briefings for theme parks after 9/11. Theme parks represent classic America to a lot of people (although, they are starting to really expand all over the globe), and the fact that the Disney Parks were evacuated on 9/11, partly for the fear of being potential targets, there really isn't a reason to let anyone who could have malicious intent know about a park's specific attendance counts.

 

I'm sure that there are lots of other reasons, and it always bothers me a bit when my curiosity about a park's attendance doesn't get answered. You also have to think that a park's capacity changes on a daily/hourly basis. As Hurricane Harbor would be the only thing that could come anywhere close to meeting capacity any time soon, you can think that the capacity is formulated by not just the rides & amount of space but also the amount of lifeguards on duty (that's a big one) and the amount of employees working the restaurants, cleaning the bathrooms, etc. It's really interesting and information that I don't even really know much about at all. Although, while we're on this topic, an article was posted on MiceChat yesterday detailing the capacity of Disneyland's rides: http://micechat.com/98999-disneyland-capacity-sponge/

[HWFan]

Is there a good possibility that JLBM could be open by May 29th, the night I am going to Children's Hospital night?

Speaking as someone who is helping plan that event from the side of SLCH and not as a SFSL employee, we are very hopeful that the park will have the ride open, but we're just waiting to see how things go in the next few weeks.

 

Fun Fact: Dave Roemer is the sole person in charge of planning that event from the park's side. He is the only one who meets with the SLCH Foundation team about it and makes sure it is all good to go. It's a project that he is very fond of and sees to it personally that it is successful.

 

When you're there, make sure to stop by and see if he's working in First Cone serving up some of the biggest waffle cones you've ever seen. Just don't ask him for a smaller one as you will be overruled. Should be another great event this year!

[bachir]

So Justice League will be comparable to the Spider Man ride at Universal Islands of Adventure? If that's the case, big win for Six Flags. We've been to Universal two years in a row now, what they have been able to do with Transformers and Spiderman is something else. Amazing effects.

[HWFan]

So Justice League will be comparable to the Spider Man ride at Universal Islands of Adventure? If that's the case, big win for Six Flags. We've been to Universal two years in a row now, what they have been able to do with Transformers and Spiderman is something else. Amazing effects.

Basically Spiderman....but better. It's a web spun from Spiderman's foundation with extra elements & improvements as well!

[Woodie Warrior]

So Justice League will be comparable to the Spider Man ride at Universal Islands of Adventure? If that's the case, big win for Six Flags. We've been to Universal two years in a row now, what they have been able to do with Transformers and Spiderman is something else. Amazing effects.

Basically Spiderman....but better. It's a web spun from Spiderman's foundation with extra elements & improvements as well!

As excited as I am for JLBFM, I have to say it's going to be incredibly difficult for it to beat Spider-Man. I'm sure it'll be awesome, but Spider-Man is one of my favorite rides ever. It beats out most coasters and pretty much every dark ride I've ridden.

[Iron Wolf 90-11]

SFOT's Justice League is opening in May 23rd. Not sure how the two compare in how close they are to completion. But we at least get an idea of when it will opening I guess.

[MikeC65]

So Justice League will be comparable to the Spider Man ride at Universal Islands of Adventure? If that's the case, big win for Six Flags. We've been to Universal two years in a row now, what they have been able to do with Transformers and Spiderman is something else. Amazing effects.

Basically Spiderman....but better. It's a web spun from Spiderman's foundation with extra elements & improvements as well!

 

I'm glad to hear you say this, but I just don't see how it's possible. I visited Universal last month, and rode Spider-Man and Transformers. These are huge rides with gigantic 3-D screens with 4K HD projection, creating a totally immersive experience. Spider-Man has 13 30-foot tall screens. JLBFM has 7 screens (per HWFan post on 12/16/15) and from what I saw on the Fox 2 News walk-through, they aren't all huge like the ones in Spider-Man. From that preview, the ride seemed more like a souped-up version of Universal's Men in Black target shooting ride. Not that JLBFM won't be superior to Men in Black, which is purely practical effects and has no screens as a part of the ride, but I can't see how, with far fewer and far smaller screens, JLBFM could possibly create the totally immersive experience Universal's rides provide.

 

Plus, let's face it, Six Flags just doesn't have the budget to duplicate these rides, and you get what you pay for.

 

Not that I'm not looking forward to JLBFM. I am. I'm sure it will be a great ride, and given that I'm at Six flags 3 or 4 times a week during the summer (yeah, I get my use out of that dining pass!) it will be great to have a ride like this. But comparable to Spider-Man or Transformers? No way do I believe it's possible.

[HWFan]

Anybody in the park or going to the park today? My shift starts at 3:00, but I was hoping to get a ride on Mr. Freeze and/or American Thunder before work. If anyone wants to meet, let me know!

[Iron Wolf 90-11]

Anybody willing to do a PTR this weekend?

[Woodie Warrior]

I visited the park today for the second time this season.

 

Outside of Justice League has gotten some more work but it still hasn't changed too much. It seems like they could knock out the rest of the exterior in a week or so. (Small comment: I'm sure there was reasoning for it, but why is the exterior the last thing to be finished? I would think the park would want to have it done before the season started so that it would look nice for guests and convince them to come back later.)

 

All rides have at least two trains except for American Thunder. Mr. Freeze broke down around 1ish, and we got exit passes. We decided to use them on Boss.... Wow! Boss is running really incredible this season. No, it is nowhere near "butter smooth" but it is 10000000000000% times better than it was last season. It seems like they only retracked a small section, but the entire ride felt so much better as a result. Plus, they didn't even take our exit passes, just checked them, so we used them again later on Batman (which didn't even have a wait, so we didn't feel too guilty).

 

Lots of busses today as well, which was sort of annoying, as one group gave all their students Flash Passes.

 

Side note: I'm not trying to start a rumor, as the chances of my idea coming true is extremely small, but since Iron Boss apparently has near zero chance of happening, what if the park built a brand-new RMC wood coaster? Sure, that would mean 4 woodies, but they would all be completely different. I mean, you have an old, classic one, a terrain, lateral-filled one, a twisty, airtime-filled one, and a state-of-the-art one with inversions. Topper track means little maintenance work, and an RMC coaster would be a lot cheaper than most other potential coasters. Again, the chances of this happening are so small, especially with the amount of money the park is spending on JLBFM, but having 4 awesome wooden coasters would almost make SFSTL a destination park.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Woodie Warrior

[I305forever]

^ I think them getting a S&S 4D coaster is more likely, I could see that happening too, although I don't see SF spending a ton of money on a brand new RMC when they could just Iron Horse a coaster everyone says is too rough anyway.

[HWFan]

Outside of Justice League has gotten some more work but it still hasn't changed too much. It seems like they could knock out the rest of the exterior in a week or so. (Small comment: I'm sure there was reasoning for it, but why is the exterior the last thing to be finished? I would think the park would want to have it done before the season started so that it would look nice for guests and convince them to come back later.)

There was a lot of nastier weather days during the week this month, which is the reason why the Palace roof isn't quite done yet. I would guess that it is probably the same with JLBM. Plus, with a lot of the same crew members working on different parts of the project, there might be some that are finishing the inside before devoting their time to the exterior once the weather gets better. Idk but with JLBM, this weekend I'm just feeling like IT'S ELECTRIC *boogie woogie woogie*.

[Password121]

^^If the park wants to keep Boss as a wooden coaster, I see no problem with a custom RMC coaster. As for "spending a ton of money on a brand new RMC," I don't see how spending ~$10 million on a custom design is less financially sound than spending ~$10 million to I box an existing coaster.

[Woodie Warrior]

Outside of Justice League has gotten some more work but it still hasn't changed too much. It seems like they could knock out the rest of the exterior in a week or so. (Small comment: I'm sure there was reasoning for it, but why is the exterior the last thing to be finished? I would think the park would want to have it done before the season started so that it would look nice for guests and convince them to come back later.)

There was a lot of nastier weather days during the week this month, which is the reason why the Palace roof isn't quite done yet. I would guess that it is probably the same with JLBM. Plus, with a lot of the same crew members working on different parts of the project, there might be some that are finishing the inside before devoting their time to the exterior once the weather gets better. Idk but with JLBM, this weekend I'm just feeling like IT'S ELECTRIC *boogie woogie woogie*.

Yeah, I don't know why I forgot about the whole weather situation. I had a brain fart.

 

I forgot to mention: Even though it's not done yet, it's obvious that SFSTL's facade is going to be tons better than SFOT's. Not only is ours at least double the width, but we don't have a giant metal building popping out over the top like theirs does. It should look really nice when it's done. I can't wait!

[HWFan]

I took a few pictures at the park yesterday as a Guest before my shift started. I got some good looks at the renovated store. Check out the floor. Not sure what they did, but it looks pretty cool.

By the way, anyone else notice the large new propane tank across the midway from Moon Cars? Kinda a weird place to put more fuel for the cars, because that'd be such a pro-PAIN. Unless....the propane is part of next year's new attraction, "Doomsday Preppers: The Experience". Ok, I'll show myself out.

Entrance to the shop from the exit of Shazam.

I'm sitting at the point where the JLBM exit meets the Shazam exit. You can see the grey exit doors.

The best picture of the interesting floor pattern.

Lots of vintage posters and even a cool superman cardboard cutout.

In the upper right corner, you can kinda see the light from the projector that projects a JL logo that spins in circles on the floor at the entrance. Hard to see when it's bright, but I'm sure it looks really cool at night especially.

The Hall of Justice

The queue looks ready!

As you enter DC Comics Plaza from under the train bridge.

Finally a true garage door. It's closed. Cuz the power, you're supplying...it's electrifying! (That's my best Paula wannabe hint making...I'm sorry.

This was at 2:15 on a Saturday afternoon.

Batman Plaza

i waited 45 SECONDS(!!!!!!) for this pic....the things I go through to get pics sometimes. I'm a Six Flags martyr.

You may remember Donna, the VP from Sally that I talked about a few pages back. Opening day, I convinced her to meet me in the park and talk to some Guests. Her passion was really evident.

Here she is showing off the cape she won in that last pic. Oh, and if you notice, one of my shoes was partially off my wheelchair because he anticipation for JLBM was knocking my socks off (but I forgot to take off my shoe first).

[prozach626]

I took a few pictures at the park yesterday as a Guest before my shift started. I got some good looks at the renovated store. Check out the floor. Not sure what they did, but it looks pretty cool.

[attachment=12]image.jpg[/attachment]

 

I still love me some Batman.

 

Thanks for the update.

[I305forever]

^^If the park wants to keep Boss as a wooden coaster, I see no problem with a custom RMC coaster. As for "spending a ton of money on a brand new RMC," I don't see how spending ~$10 million on a custom design is less financially sound than spending ~$10 million to I box an existing coaster.

 

I didn't know they would be around the same price. If they are like you say, then building a new RMC coaster would make a lot more financial sense than I originally thought it would. Sorry about that.

[Vonni]

Yet another wonderful report HWFan! I'm loving the news you are regularly bringing us! Keep it coming! Also, I love your sense of humor!!!

 

Also, I have a question. I know its been discussed before, but have you heard anything about the metal detectors receiving a permanent (and more visually appealing) structure? It would really be a welcomed addition.

[HWFan]

Yet another wonderful report HWFan! I'm loving the news you are regularly bringing us! Keep it coming! Also, I love your sense of humor!!!

 

Also, I have a question. I know its been discussed before, but have you heard anything about the metal detectors receiving a permanent (and more visually appealing) structure? It would really be a welcomed addition.

Here is how I see it. Think of all the things dealing with infrastructure, theming, Guest Service, basically anything besides rides, that would be nice to see updated/replaced/renovated. Now out of the hundred or so things on that list, create a list that is made up of full-out replacements/renovations of whatever it is with a price tag by each item. Then create a second list with the same issue but give it ten percent of the full renovation/replacement budget to pay for some paint or other smaller fix. Now you are given a huge budget, bigger than you've ever received for doing renovations. Even with a huge budget, the park really wasn't receiving a huge amount of money during the Shapiro years and the park is built with lots of stucco, plaster, and regular wood/paint. Contrast that with Holiday World. You can say that things there look much better in terms of some of the buildings, but 90% of their buildings are covered in plain old vinyl siding, which makes maintenance wayyyy easier. The Palace theater is looking better every weekend, and while you can't tell that the trim is no longer the original wood/plaster, the vinyl replacement will last years into the future. If you look at the park five years in the future, I think that, the way this trend is going, you will see a park that is absolutely beautiful and in almost pristine condition. The great thing is that the park is receiving the funds to do a lot of great work, but unfortunately there are some big ticket items (like the Palace renovation & new roof that has a mind-blowing cost) that need to be taken care of first. A lot of that kind of project doesn't end up getting green-lit until right before it's time to start a lot of the time, as you just do the best you can do and see what you have left. One thing I learned today, is that while the painters may have been going crazy touching up a ton of stuff all over the park, the painting crews can't actually start until February due to the winter, but they will be painting full time during the week until we get to daily operation at which point they will still keep painting throughout the summer, although they are more constricted when the park is open.

 

Long story short: Lots of great renovation work on the way. The park is using every bit of cash it can, and besides just renovating the structures to be like they were, they are making them more durable to last better through the midwestern winters.

 

I'm glad you like the updates, by the way! I like to think that my sense of humor brightens the updates for some, and that my sense of humor gets sympathy or pity from others.