The Knott's Berry Farm (KBF) Discussion Thread

[Stealthrider]

So what coaster or ride at Knotts will have the next accident?

[A.J.]

Zamperla must've thought that the trains would make it over the launch no matter what.

 

Usually I'm a fan of rollbacks. Hopefully everyone is okay.

[Calicoasters]

The launch section does have some brakes on it. I'm curios to know if they would close once the train goes passing back through those proximity switches, or if they would close if an E-Stop was activated. This I wonder...

 

Now the ride looks ever more pathetic (didn't think it could get any worse) to me. Couldn't get enough speed to clear a 40 foot hill!

[Sir Clinksalot]

I can't imagine that Pony Express doesn't have roll-back brakes.

[AllenA07]

^That is my thought exactly! Is there any way that anti-roll backs can fail?

[rcdude]

Based on what I remember from riding the ride, there are about ten friction brakes along the launch track that close as soon as the train clears the end of the launch track. I'm guessing that there was some type of brake problem that prevented them from closing, or a sensor fault that detected the train as not being clear when it actually was. It is also possible that they may be insufficient to stop the train, but if that is the case it would be a critical design flaw.

 

I wonder what will happen to this ride, if anything, as a result of this. Since the ride uses magnetic brakes to stop at the end, maybe Knott's should consider installing them on the launch track as well.

Edited October 8, 2010 by rcdude

[Sir Clinksalot]

ANYTHING can fail ... but if they are the same type of anti roll-backs that Xcelerator has, the ONLY way they could fail is if they don't pop up after the ride is launched. I believe the ones on Xcelerator (and other Intamin launched coasters) are magnetic.

 

I also can't imagine that this is the first time Pony Express had a roll-back, that this has happened before but the brakes worked and wasn't an issue.

[Calicoasters]

^True! All of Xcelerator's brakes are magnetic.

 

The brakes on Pony Express however are the pinchy "Mechanical" kind (With the exception of the magnetic brakes on the decline at the end of the ride.)

 

[COASTAH FREAK]

Maybe they are set up too reopen after the train has passed the turn. Is it a possibility they figured they'd have rollbacks on the airtime hill instead of the turn?

[Calicoasters]

^The brakes are always in a closed position when they are not in use. They only open to allow the train to pass through. As soon as the train has passed they will return to a closed position.

[KDCOASTERFAN]

^That is my thought exactly! Is there any way that anti-roll backs can fail?

 

Anyone recall the incident in 99 in NJ where the anti rollbacks on that wild mouse failed & two people were killed?

[kf2010]

Maybe I'm just naturally self aware, but it seems to me this is an incident where if the operators were paying attention to the ride through the circuit, they would have seen the train didn't clear the hill, and could have pushed e-stop to have the calipers stop the train on the launch before it came back into the station.

 

Problem is the punishment for hitting e stop when it's not an emergency is usually so harsh, it's the last thing most ops think about because they're afraid of getting in trouble ie Superman incident on Tower of Power.

 

Knott's is lucky the incident was not more serious.

[Brad]

Problem is the punishment for hitting e stop when it's not an emergency is usually so harsh, it's the last thing most ops think about because they're afraid of getting in trouble ie Superman incident on Tower of Power.

 

No legitimate park policies could punish someone for activating an e-stop, even if there is just a hint that something is wrong. I'd be more worried about not hitting e-stop.

[Calicoasters]

Maybe I'm just naturally self aware, but it seems to me this is an incident where if the operators were paying attention to the ride through the circuit, they would have seen the train didn't clear the hill, and could have pushed e-stop to have the calipers stop the train on the launch before it came back into the station.

 

Problem is the punishment for hitting e stop when it's not an emergency is usually so harsh, it's the last thing most ops think about because they're afraid of getting in trouble ie Superman incident on Tower of Power.

 

Knott's is lucky the incident was not more serious.

 

Really? I'm not concerned at all about weather or not the ride operator pressed the E-Stop. What confuses me is why couldn't the ride itself bring that train to a complete stop. The ride is loaded with proximity switches most of them being on the launch section of track, when the train passed by those proximity switches why did it not initiate an E-Stop on it's own and stop the train.

 

But then again, we were not there so we don't know exactly how it all went down. We don't know if the train was slowed down on it's return backwards, it might have only lightly collided with the train in the station. So far the injuries reported all seem to be of minor aches and pains. If there was no effort from the brakes to slow the train down wouldn't the collision and the injuries been intense?

[sfmman2000]

To be technical, an E-stop button on most rides that I have operated, shuts down the ride's main power and is not usually pressed right away after an emergency occurs. The operator should activate the normal method of stopping the ride, and once riders are evacuated, then press the E-stop. Once an E-stop is pressed, restraints may not be easy to open.

 

On another note,

 

For all we know, the launch system had a major problem and launched the train very slowly, but fast enough to send the train somewhat up the hill. Let's say the brakes did not close at all, and on the way down the train had just enough speed to lightly hit the train in the station. And the reason for the brakes not closing, is because the entire train did not clear the launch area. That's my theory.

[kf2010]

No legitimate park policies could punish someone for activating an e-stop, even if there is just a hint that something is wrong. I'd be more worried about not hitting e-stop.

 

Yeah, what would I know. I only worked at this park on several rides and saw people get written up because they hit the e stop when they didn't necessarily have to...

 

I guess using your rules it's time to mark Knotts off the list of "legitimate park policies."

 

What confuses me is why couldn't the ride itself bring that train to a complete stop.

 

I think we all are.

 

To be technical, an E-stop button on most rides that I have operated, shuts down the ride's main power and is not usually pressed right away after an emergency occurs. The operator should activate the normal method of stopping the ride, and once riders are evacuated, then press the E-stop. Once an E-stop is pressed, restraints may not be easy to open.

 

There wasn't time in this instance to activate the "normal" method of stopping the ride, and there wasn't time to evacuate riders. The train was coming backwards down the launch track and it was a decsision that would have to be made in seconds. Unless the brakes on the launch went completely out causing this accident, an E-Stop would have closed the calipers and stopped the train before it got to the station.

 

Maybe an op did hit the e-stop, we don't know. But if they did and the train STILL didn't stop on the launch track, there's a flaw in the safety systems of the ride that may be more serious than just proxy sensors not activating the brakes.

[sfmman2000]

^Most of what I said was referring to general procedures, not necessarily this incident. I don't know enough about how friction brakes work, but if they were open, would pressing the E-stop (cutting the ride power) revert them to a closed position? Or would they stay open until power was restored to the ride, and 'electrically' released.

[Tmcdllr]

E stop in this instance should not matter. The normal operation of this ride should be the brakes close as soon as the train clears them. If the brakes malfunctioned an E stop would not matter. Bottom line is the ride should have safely stopped the train on its own with no human intervention but obviously failed so there is a serious problem there.

[chadster]

based on the photos of the breaks that were posted here on the launch side (I have not ridden this ride, but will be there on the 25th if anyone wants to skip work and come out, tho I imagine I won't be riding this particular ride) it's to my understanding and knowledge they operate in a fail safe capacity. In other words, it takes something like air pressure, plunger, etc to open the calipers to allow the fin to move through. So, if power was cut, in theory, any open calipers would be instantly closed as the valves that let the pressure flow to the calipers would also close as it takes an electric signal to open the valve, no electric, valve closes, brakes close.

[Six Flags Enthuseast]

I feel bad for Intamin cable. He's getting blamed for everything now.

 

Wow, this is a very strange incident. I can't believe this ride doesn't have anti-rollback fins or some other similar device! Maybe Zamperla never expected this kind of incident to happen? Even so, wouldn't it be smart to have them anyways? This is all very weird...

[sfmman2000]

Considering how relatively often launched coasters rollback, having anti-rollback fins on the incline is asking for trouble. Think rider evac in the air, and then pushing the train through the course...

[beatle11]

If I were Cedar Fair, I would really investigate Knott's thoroughly. The state may want to look into it too. Very strange. I'm definitely glad this wasn't more serious.

[MayTheGForceBeWithYou]

I saw it happen! I was just about to enter the Doll Factory when I heard the launch of PE. I watched it go up, roll back, and swing around the turn into the other train. I still have the crash ringing in my ears.

[Tmcdllr]

Considering how relatively often launched coasters rollback, having anti-rollback fins on the incline is asking for trouble. Think rider evac in the air, and then pushing the train through the course...

 

 

They would only, obviously, be on the flat section to slow, then stop the train from hitting the other one.

 

This seems like two different failures...

1. The launch failed to propel the train fast enough

 

2. Because the launch failed, the train rolled back and should have been stopped, but for whatever reason it wasn't.

 

And as was stated, the failsafe for pneumatic brakes is the closed position. The brakes should only ever open when a solenoid valve is energized to release the compressed air holding them closed, such as when a train is supposed to pass. The valve is de energized when the brakes are supposed to close which allows compressed air from the nearby storage tanks to close them. The failsafe to this is if there is a failure of the main compressor the brakes will still close using the stored compressed air in the small tank nearby, or if the power fails the brakes will close as there is no power to energize the solenoid valves that keep them open. With that being said, the brakes should have stopped the train unless they did not close at all or they did but did not have enough pressure to fully stop the train because of some kind of mechanical malfunction.

[KDCOASTERFAN]

No legitimate park policies could punish someone for activating an e-stop, even if there is just a hint that something is wrong. I'd be more worried about not hitting e-stop.

 

Yeah, what would I know. I only worked at this park on several rides and saw people get written up because they hit the e stop when they didn't necessarily have to...

 

I guess using your rules it's time to mark Knotts off the list of "legitimate park policies."

 

What confuses me is why couldn't the ride itself bring that train to a complete stop.

 

I think we all are.

 

To be technical, an E-stop button on most rides that I have operated, shuts down the ride's main power and is not usually pressed right away after an emergency occurs. The operator should activate the normal method of stopping the ride, and once riders are evacuated, then press the E-stop. Once an E-stop is pressed, restraints may not be easy to open.

 

There wasn't time in this instance to activate the "normal" method of stopping the ride, and there wasn't time to evacuate riders. The train was coming backwards down the launch track and it was a decsision that would have to be made in seconds. Unless the brakes on the launch went completely out causing this accident, an E-Stop would have closed the calipers and stopped the train before it got to the station.

 

Maybe an op did hit the e-stop, we don't know. But if they did and the train STILL didn't stop on the launch track, there's a flaw in the safety systems of the ride that may be more serious than just proxy sensors not activating the brakes.

 

True but don't the brakes close only when the air pressure is removed from the calipers?It requires pressure to open the brakes,in this case for launch.