Speak to the Kraut

[KrautWithAltitude]

hey Norman, I do have a couple questions for you

1. I was wondering what version of cad you work with the most

2. what some of the common day to day problems you in counter with your line of work(if you can talk about it.)

3. What your favorite project you ever worked on was? (if its confidential I understand.)

Thank you so much for doing this and for your time.

 

1. Mostly I work with Autocad, not always the latest version.

 

2. Clear communication, that´s pretty much it. Even more so as I do most of it by phone or email. If communication goes right, there are no problems worth mentioning, sometimes a few i´s need to be dotted though. If communication goes wrong or people don´t do their work as they should, well this can be annoying but is really no day to day problem.

 

3. My favourite so far was Mammut, because I worked a relatively long time on it, it is located near my home and I got to ride it on opening day, so this one is very special to me

 

4. Thanks for your appreciation

 

Norman

[KrautWithAltitude]

Thanks for all the great answers on the previous page Norman.

I have lots more but will add later on..

Couple simple questions..

 

1. Are you a coaster and park enthusiast??

2. What are some of your favorite rides if you are??

3. Do you get to do any preopening riding?? Like are you one of the lucky few that get to take the first rides on the coasters as in the first riders while the construction is still getting done (not like media events but first real passenger after the water dummys get a spin??

 

Thanks

 

1. Coaster, yes, absolutely, used to be since I was a kid, gazing and doodling. Park, hmmm... not that much though I might enjoy two or three visits a year. Can´t quite tell since I never go that much.

 

2. Expedition Geforce! Also Eurostar (portable inverted coaster) and there are a few coasters I worked on but not got to ride yet, like El Toro.

Then I like a couple of flat rides, they more they spin and swing, the better. I also can´t resist droptowers, although they scare me sick.

 

3. Yes, sometimes I do, but only on such coasters which are located in Germany or are getting assembled on factory premises for testing. I only get to ride at most 10% of the coasters which I help creating

 

Thanks for the appreciation!

 

Norman

[KrautWithAltitude]

Hey Norman,

 

Thanks for creating this! It's incredibly giving of you and your time. I know I appreciate all the answers.

 

My question: Do you (or someone else) ever get a chance to advise clients on 'best practices' when designing a coaster? I guess my question stems from some 'interesting' installations that I think weren't thought out completely. Like 'Led Zepplin' at Hard Rock Park. There is simply no reason whatsoever to have a mid-course brake on that thing. (In my opnion, of course.) Even big parks stack trains. If I were a designer, I would have told them NOT to have a MCB. Save the money for something else. Just run two trains. You'll hardly ever need to run three.

 

So, basically, I was wondering if the designers make any recommendations to the clients before they sign on the dotted line?

 

It´s like almost every aspect in our business, you can´t give a general answer because every coaster is custom made, even clones of Batman or Rita coasters need to be adjusted and recalculated to some extent. Since my customers have been creating roller coasters for more than five decades, they absolutely know how to get the best results within the given limits and are happy to propose ideas since it helps getting everything done. Sometimes of course, park executives like to make their own decisions, they want to make their coasters pay. And then, if such ideas can be integrated, it gets done.

 

Norman

[KrautWithAltitude]

Thank you for taking the time to share your expertise Norman.

 

I'm curious as to how much aesthetics play in a roll in the design of coaster supports. Is it more of the traditional rule, "Form follows function", or are designs made to accomodate a certain "look" that a park may be going for? One coaster that comes to mind for me is Viper at SFMM. The supports on the turnaround after the vertical loop have always struck me as being designed to convey a sense of massive structure. Is that by chance, or is it a design consideration?

 

I also stood there, gazing at that massive turn, back in 1994

Look at the coasters for yourself. If you got a taste for architecture, you will find out which ones are designed to look especially good. Of course that is hard to tell since ALL costers look good to us, don´t they, even those of which you know they will bash you like Mike Tyson ?

 

Well, most of the supports are designed functionally and if they need to look exciting get a fancy paint job. Like this you get the most for your money. Coasters are attractions by themselves, only a few customers make special efforts to the design of every column. Rather they choose to build a beautifully made woodie like Mammut (here it is cheaper to achieve handsome architectural effects) or bury the whole thing in the ground like Nemesis or place a coaster in such a way that it looks best to passers-by.

 

Norman

[KrautWithAltitude]

Everyone,

 

I´ll be offline until sunday evening GMT. So don´t worry

 

Norman

[KDCOASTERFAN]

Everyone,

 

I´ll be offline until sunday evening GMT. So don´t worry

 

Norman

 

That's ok with me as I'll be at KD tomorrow.

 

Here's a question for you although it's more of a mechanical/engineering one related to trains rather than structural/track design.How in the heck does the ratcheting restraint system(especially on OTSR's function & what exact components are used in what ways to accomplish that?

[BeemerBoy]

Norman, I echo everyone else's sentiments in thanking you for your time on this thread. I appreciate you explaining how your role fits into the overall process and timeline of building a coaster, but I'm curious if you could provide us with a sample of your work as a frame of reference for what you actually hand over to the fabricators. Obviously, it's understood if you can't show something specific to any certain project, but maybe something in general to show off your talents would be really cool, and greatly appreciated. Thanks again!

[Coaster Sim. Fan]

Thanks Norman for taking time out to answer our questions.

 

Here is a question I have always wondered about. Lets say I own a park and I go to B&M saying I want to build a B&M invert in my park. Now what part of the engineering does the coaster compony do and what part of the engineering does Stengel Engineering do?

[Hilltopper39]

Hey Norman thanks for the great responses, here's a few more questions..

 

1. I know you said you mainly use AutoCad, but are any other programs ever invloved in the design process like Solidworks or AutoDesk or ProE or anything like that.

 

2. When you do your design calculations, do you utilize any type of finite element package in the process like Cosmosworks or Ansys? Or do you use some type of in house program.

 

3. How often does a company like your analyze previous rides to improve the future ones? Do you ride the rides you've opened and say well this hill and this turn worked well but this one didn't quite ride like we anticipated, and then try to make improvements on future designs. I know from riding the GCI's that have been built over the past 10 years or so it seems like every one new one they build is better than the last so I wondered how often you analyze previous rides and try to improve upon their design for future rides.

 

Thanks!!!

[Rollerman87]

First, thanks for taking time to answer all our questions (even though I haven't asked any yet ). I've read through this thread and have already had half my questions eliminated. Here's some questions :

 

1. So, you live in Germany? Is that your home, or are you American?

 

2. You say you do drawings (I might have to reread the thread). Is it like conceptual stuff? Or more blueprint like?

 

3. *drooling* Have you actually met Stengel?

 

4. Do they literally just kind of slap a new file on your desk and tell you to draw out something for it? Or is there like a decent meeting to plan out the beginning stages?

[Jcoaster]

Thanks for taking your time to answer these questions.

 

I just have one question and it's quite simple.

 

How does it feel to help design one of the best coasters in the world like El Toro?

[KrautWithAltitude]

Everyone,

 

I´ll be offline until sunday evening GMT. So don´t worry

 

Norman

 

That's ok with me as I'll be at KD tomorrow.

 

Here's a question for you although it's more of a mechanical/engineering one related to trains rather than structural/track design.How in the heck does the ratcheting restraint system(especially on OTSR's function & what exact components are used in what ways to accomplish that?

 

I don´t know how ratcheting restraints work, since they seem to be outdated by new hydraulic ones since I´ve started making coasters. The restraint is connected to two pistons (redundancy!) each of which can be locked an unlocked by toggling a valve in the hydraulic fluid´s way.

 

Norman

[Coasterlvr_nc]

Everyone,

 

I´ll be offline until sunday evening GMT. So don´t worry

 

Norman

 

That's ok with me as I'll be at KD tomorrow.

 

Here's a question for you although it's more of a mechanical/engineering one related to trains rather than structural/track design.How in the heck does the ratcheting restraint system(especially on OTSR's function & what exact components are used in what ways to accomplish that?

 

I understand how it works, having worked at Afterburn. Unfortunately it is very hard to describe without any visual aids whatsoever.

 

Here goes, At the end of the OTSR on a B&M inverted roller coaster there is an axle that runs behind the headrest connecting the two sides of the OTSR. Connected to that axle is a star shaped wheel as demonstrated by my awful 5 second drawing in Fig. 1

 

Along that same axle, but able to spin freely of the axle is the unlocking mechanism Fig. 2 This surrounds the star wheel and is turned in order to unlock the restraints.

 

Finally, there are the "pins" for lack of a better word. These are the parts that actually lock the restraint Fig. 3 They are held in the lock position by a spring until the unlocking mechanism pushes them to the side.

 

Fig. 4 shows the locked restraints, with the arrows showing the movements to unlock the restraints. I hope this helps you to understand how the ratcheting OSTR works, and i would like to remind you that this is probably not 100% accurate, but as close as i can get by simply observing one on Afterburn. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

Do keep in mind that there are two "star wheels" and eight "pins"

 

FIG. 1

 

 

FIG. 2

 

 

FIG. 3

 

 

FIG. 4

[KrautWithAltitude]

Again a whole lot of new questions. So here we go (<- what´s this one good for? )

 

Norman, I echo everyone else's sentiments in thanking you for your time on this thread. I appreciate you explaining how your role fits into the overall process and timeline of building a coaster, but I'm curious if you could provide us with a sample of your work as a frame of reference for what you actually hand over to the fabricators. Obviously, it's understood if you can't show something specific to any certain project, but maybe something in general to show off your talents would be really cool, and greatly appreciated. Thanks again!

 

The technical drawings I do are property of my customers and therefore I cannot provide anything. Here you find some examples of track drawings, which do not look close to what I do, but are all I can show off for now.

 

Thanks Norman for taking time out to answer our questions.

 

Here is a question I have always wondered about. Lets say I own a park and I go to B&M saying I want to build a B&M invert in my park. Now what part of the engineering does the coaster compony do and what part of the engineering does Stengel Engineering do?

 

Well, Stengel does the engineering of the structure (track and supports). It includes engineering the exact shape of the track pipes, desired train speeds, the resulting forces on riders and structure, and dimensioning of the supports and foundations. They do not design trains or other components anymore, just the structure and the according drawings.

 

Hey Norman thanks for the great responses, here's a few more questions..

 

1. I know you said you mainly use AutoCad, but are any other programs ever invloved in the design process like Solidworks or AutoDesk or ProE or anything like that.

 

2. When you do your design calculations, do you utilize any type of finite element package in the process like Cosmosworks or Ansys? Or do you use some type of in house program.

 

3. How often does a company like your analyze previous rides to improve the future ones? Do you ride the rides you've opened and say well this hill and this turn worked well but this one didn't quite ride like we anticipated, and then try to make improvements on future designs. I know from riding the GCI's that have been built over the past 10 years or so it seems like every one new one they build is better than the last so I wondered how often you analyze previous rides and try to improve upon their design for future rides.

 

Thanks!!!

 

1. It depends on the maker, since there are many programs suitable for making rollercoasters, like AutoCad, Inventor, ProE... Sometimes you need a high degree of automation for designing structures and drawings, which goes best with AutoCAD. You might need a completely different approach for designing trains and other mechanical components, like Inventor for example.

 

2. I do not do any such calculations, but those who do use a mixture of stock and self made software. Don´t ask me for names.

 

3. About the structure: For not having to do such reviews and changes, engineering has become so important. A properly calculated and crafted coaster rides like it is supposed to. Trial and Error was the word back in the times, when carpenters figured out rollercoasters, when Mr. Stengel and his followers were yet to come. We do not do any such errors any more. That is pretty much the truth. New train designs on the other hand will need quite an amount of experimentation, because there´s no university where you can learn how to build a rollercoaster.

 

First, thanks for taking time to answer all our questions (even though I haven't asked any yet ). I've read through this thread and have already had half my questions eliminated. Here's some questions :

 

1. So, you live in Germany? Is that your home, or are you American?

 

2. You say you do drawings (I might have to reread the thread). Is it like conceptual stuff? Or more blueprint like?

 

3. *drooling* Have you actually met Stengel?

 

4. Do they literally just kind of slap a new file on your desk and tell you to draw out something for it? Or is there like a decent meeting to plan out the beginning stages?

 

1. I am a native German, I believe.

 

2. Blueprints for wood and steel columns most of the time. Sometimes a customer asks for a concept or a specific detail, which I also do.

 

3. Several times I did.

 

4. Since I have quite some experience in what I do, I usually get a bunch of files to start with, and a few phone calls to make things clear will do it. Meetings do sometimes happen, but are not everyday business.

 

Thanks for taking your time to answer these questions.

 

I just have one question and it's quite simple.

 

How does it feel to help design one of the best coasters in the world like El Toro?

 

It always feels good, but there´s no such thing like the first time But if you make lots of coasters over the years, there will be only a few favourite ones, like those you would like to have in your backyard. They will always make you feel happy when you see them. The other coasters help to pay your rent and you make them with same accuracy as always, but they are not forever here to remind you, but only in comparison, so I could hardly think of a better job for me.

 

 

Norman

[KrautWithAltitude]

I understand how it works, having worked at Afterburn. Unfortunately it is very hard to describe without any visual aids whatsoever.

...

 

Thanks for your help. Those drawings work well

 

Norman

[Coasterlvr_nc]

^ I'm Glad they did, I had to make due with paint since i could not find any technical drawings of the mechanisms, and I dont have cad

[Gav]

Hi Norman,

There is one thing I have wondered for a little while...If Stengel is responsible for the engineering for rides from virtually all the major manufacturers you might expect to things become more 'generic' between manufacturers....For example you might settle on a well refined style to support a ride, or to shape a particular element, and then just apply that to everything you do, but this doesn't seem to have occurred....

The various manufacturers still manage to maintain their unique style and character...A cobra roll on a B&M is very different to that on an Intamin or a Vekoma. The style of supporting varies too.

 

I guess the way you could sum it up is, where does the work of the manufacturer end, and the work of Stengel begin? In some cases does Stengel essentially "double check" and refine the designs of a manufacturer.

 

Edit: Also, another quick question I might as well ask here, but was Mick Doohans Motocoaster designed by Stengel? The reason I ask is because rcdb, nor Stengels website have it listed.

[KrautWithAltitude]

Hi Norman,

There is one thing I have wondered for a little while...If Stengel is responsible for the engineering for rides from virtually all the major manufacturers you might expect to things become more 'generic' between manufacturers....For example you might settle on a well refined style to support a ride, or to shape a particular element, and then just apply that to everything you do, but this doesn't seem to have occurred....

The various manufacturers still manage to maintain their unique style and character...A cobra roll on a B&M is very different to that on an Intamin or a Vekoma. The style of supporting varies too.

 

I guess the way you could sum it up is, where does the work of the manufacturer end, and the work of Stengel begin? In some cases does Stengel essentially "double check" and refine the designs of a manufacturer.

 

Edit: Also, another quick question I might as well ask here, but was Mick Doohans Motocoaster designed by Stengel? The reason I ask is because rcdb, nor Stengels website have it listed.

 

There are many ways to make a certain track element as long as it can be passed within the limits of allowable g-force. The appearance of elements and supports is also influenced by the size and speed of the trains. Two cobra rolls calculated by different engineers will not look the same, although both are correctly designed. Very experienced manufacturers like B&M or Intamin may have their own ideas of how they want their coasters to look and may ask for certain proven shapes.

 

About Motocoaster: Since it is an Intamin, it might have been Stengel worked on it, but this is speculation since I did not work on that project and Stengel does not work on all Intamin coasters.

 

Norman

[KDCOASTERFAN]

Everyone,

 

I´ll be offline until sunday evening GMT. So don´t worry

 

Norman

 

That's ok with me as I'll be at KD tomorrow.

 

Here's a question for you although it's more of a mechanical/engineering one related to trains rather than structural/track design.How in the heck does the ratcheting restraint system(especially on OTSR's function & what exact components are used in what ways to accomplish that?

 

I understand how it works, having worked at Afterburn. Unfortunately it is very hard to describe without any visual aids whatsoever.

 

Here goes, At the end of the OTSR on a B&M inverted roller coaster there is an axle that runs behind the headrest connecting the two sides of the OTSR. Connected to that axle is a star shaped wheel as demonstrated by my awful 5 second drawing in Fig. 1

 

Along that same axle, but able to spin freely of the axle is the unlocking mechanism Fig. 2 This surrounds the star wheel and is turned in order to unlock the restraints.

 

Finally, there are the "pins" for lack of a better word. These are the parts that actually lock the restraint Fig. 3 They are held in the lock position by a spring until the unlocking mechanism pushes them to the side.

 

Fig. 4 shows the locked restraints, with the arrows showing the movements to unlock the restraints. I hope this helps you to understand how the ratcheting OSTR works, and i would like to remind you that this is probably not 100% accurate, but as close as i can get by simply observing one on Afterburn. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

Do keep in mind that there are two "star wheels" and eight "pins"

 

 

Thanks for providing the visual references,it made it much easier to understand the basics of how the system works.

 

Here's a question for Norman:What coaster concepts are currently in development? We've already seen the stand up,invert,floorless,flyer & dive machine so what more can coaster designers do in terms of new ride vehicle concepts?

 

I do believe that the focus should shift however to making rides more exciting with the current concepts on the market rather than just building gimmicky prototypes that are only fun the first few times you ride them until the novelty of the new seating design or riding position wears off.

 

One more question(for now) :What prompted B&M to use the deja vu style seating on their new hypers such as Behemoth as opposed to the traditional 4 abreast seating seen on their previous hyper coasters?

[KrautWithAltitude]

 

Thanks for providing the visual references,it made it much easier to understand the basics of how the system works.

 

Here's a question for Norman:What coaster concepts are currently in development? We've already seen the stand up,invert,floorless,flyer & dive machine so what more can coaster designers do in terms of new ride vehicle concepts?

 

I do believe that the focus should shift however to making rides more exciting with the current concepts on the market rather than just building gimmicky prototypes that are only fun the first few times you ride them until the novelty of the new seating design or riding position wears off.

 

One more question(for now) :What prompted B&M to use the deja vu style seating on their new hypers such as Behemoth as opposed to the traditional 4 abreast seating seen on their previous hyper coasters?

 

Hi there,

 

please avoid quoting of graphics unless absolutely necessary, as well as deep-quoting into 3 or more posts. Thank you.

 

Coaster concepts in development are about the most confidential things you can find in our business, unless we are talking about rather pointless rumors. For having an advance here can make all the difference. Look at Gerstlauer for example, who IMO managed to introduce the right coaster concept at exactly the right moment (Smaller, cheaper vertical lift coasters at the dusk of a decade of ever record-breaking gigas and hypers).

 

I also believe in varying proven concepts, but as well in a gimmick here and there, like Kirnu or Screamin´ Squirrel. But after all, there´s nothing like a big airtime hill, one of the simplest and oldest coaster elements of all. Same for helices of death. like on G´sengte Sau.

 

About B&M´s plans, I don´t know. Narrow seating allows for sharper turns and tighter elements, lighter trains and structure, less wear and tear, on the other hand capacity is lessened. It may be just another change of philosophy according to the current market situation... Going back and forth with the times like this happens pretty often, so one day 4 abreast seating may come back.

 

 

Norman

[KrautWithAltitude]

So you kids are pickin nose waitin for The Kraut somethin to say, eh? Well--- let me get my sheet together... I got some for you, hold on for some Oktoberfest erection photos, but dont expect too much since it´s from 2002 and digital cameras were /too much too young too fast/ these days

(And what the heck is with the server? Robb oughta go and dope the thing somehow. This´s LA dangit )

 

peece

Norman

[JimmyBo]

Hey Norman,

 

I just found this thread and I want to say thank you for answering so many questions that I had that previous posted have posted. Here's my question for you...

 

Do you guys hire a local survey team to get you the topography for an area that a ride will be placed or do you guys have your own survey team that goes all over the world to collect the topo for you. I understand some places want you to flat grade the area and some want you to keep the topo as much as possible. Just ondering who gets you guys the topo and if you recieve it in a CAD drawing.

 

Thanks in advance if you have an answer!

[Team Thriller]

I have a question referring back to the restraints. Is it possible for a restraint to open up during the ride. I've heard some cases that it has, but I'm not sure those stories are true.

 

--James "I was wondering that during my ride on High Fall at Movie Park " Flint

[KrautWithAltitude]

Hey Norman,

 

I just found this thread and I want to say thank you for answering so many questions that I had that previous posted have posted. Here's my question for you...

 

Do you guys hire a local survey team to get you the topography for an area that a ride will be placed or do you guys have your own survey team that goes all over the world to collect the topo for you. I understand some places want you to flat grade the area and some want you to keep the topo as much as possible. Just ondering who gets you guys the topo and if you recieve it in a CAD drawing.

 

Thanks in advance if you have an answer!

 

Hey Jimmy,

 

there´s no survey team of Stengel Engineering, but we get topography data from our customers (i.e. park owners). They may have their own team or hire someone to pick up the data. And there are many (and also troubleful) ways to create CAD plans from data taken with survey gear. Thank God it is not my job

 

I have a question referring back to the restraints. Is it possible for a restraint to open up during the ride. I've heard some cases that it has, but I'm not sure those stories are true.

 

--James "I was wondering that during my ride on High Fall at Movie Park " Flint

 

I´ve never witnessed nor ever heard of that in my life. Of course restraints are designed in a way that makes failure hardly possible. But if you had to create a 100% fail safe device, you would probably come up with a piece of rock - no moving parts, nothing can break or be misused

 

So any technical device may fail due to a daisy chain of unlikely and misfortunate events not foreseen or taken into account by its designers, including, yes, roller coaster restraints. But such life ensuring devices always carry redundancy and are well over dimensioned, so they will be 99.999999 % safe. But one day, statistics will get us all anyway...

 

 

 

Thanks for your appreciation again !

 

Norman

[KrautWithAltitude]

Hey everyone,

 

so here we go with some of the pics I shot during Octoberfest Erection 2002

 

First, I have to apologize for the mediocre quality of some of the pictures, but there aren´t any better ones around. Between end of july and end of september I visited the site about 12 times, lugging along one of the expensive crappy digital cameras my former employer used to work with. Back then, I was totally unaware I would be making rollercoasters one day. But lucky so, because theres a lot else worth taking pics of. See for yourselves - jump on the 2002 Octoberfest Erection Train now !

 

The photos in this post are from July 29 and August 1. Remember that opening day was September 21.

Have you ever been there? Can you smell it already???

The Return of the Thing

Dubious imagery on the fake beer tower

A piece of the blue sky scenery for rainy days. The Japanese won´t realize anyway...

And this will be - the CHAMPAGNE tent !!!

Oh well, this city is just brimful of yuppies, you know...

There are canteens all over the place to cater the workers, but passers-by are also welcome. Almost like 6 weeks of extra Wiesn time

*sigh* You are just beginning to grasp the dimensions of this feast !

Sorry, this tower is NOT full of beer. But why? Guess I´ll always wonder...

Note all the construction is made of wood, the floor is still gravel but soon will be tiled with even more wood. Process now goes quickly, also because of the permanently installed underground foundations for the hall pillars.

Lowenbrau mascot checks out his litter pan. Obvious constipation caused by cheap brew, lemme tell ya

Early construction state of the beer halls, 7 weeks prior to opening. But already I fathom the smell of beer and mackerels...