Valleyfair (VF) Discussion Thread

[GwaziBSRider1]

I highly disagree that CF has smooth SLC's. Flight Deck is absolutely brutal and well beyond its welcome. Thunderhawk is definitely smooth-ER than others, but it ran smoother at Geauga Lake. I would only argue for an SLC if the new style trains were added. The Great Nor'easter was still rough, but it was fun because you don't have a concussion at the end.

[RCjunkie]

I did hear that the coaster budget for 2016 was going to be split between a couple of the smaller parks and we really haven't heard anything solid for 2016 besides a couple wishful thoughts.

 

What it could be though, that's the thing that will make it hard to determine. I know for sure what a few things it won't be (as much as I know you guys want one, I REALLY doubt a B&M Invert will be heading here) but any coaster that can fit into a $8-10mil budget would work well here. And a Chance Hyper-GTX would be one that would work well, as well as a Vekoma SLC.

.

 

Where did you hear or read that CF was going to split the 2016 budget for new rides among the smaller parks?

 

How do you know what the budget is going to be for the next coaster at VF? VF spent $11 million on Wild Thing in 1996 which is $16 million in today's dollars with inflation added in. Doing that once every 20 years is not out of the question. Not saying it is going to happen but your predictions and saying you 'know for sure' all sound just like every one else...pure speculation.

[ariznglori]

I think it would be cheaper for Valleyfair to put GT-X trains on Wild Thing and improve the rider experience of the biggest coaster in the park than to get a whole new coaster (I'm holding out for a B&M invert, would totally improve diversity of Valleyfair's line-up). But a GT-X would be an addition that I wouldn't turn down, and would probably be more thrilling than Wild Thing anyway.

 

I heard either Carowinds or Kings Island is losing Dinosaurs Alive in 2018/19, can't remember which. I'm pretty sure that means a seven to eight year lease. Does anyone know if that is chainwide?

Edited December 17, 2014 by ariznglori

[ariznglori]

The Twin Cities are booming and the metro is expected to exceed 4 million people by 2020. That's almost double the size of Worlds of Fun's market, and they have an invert already. Valleyfair is a more challenging park to make additions to with the flooding, weather, airport height restrictions and limited park size, but it seems that the park is being geared up to be able to handle the crowds of a larger metro. I think Cedar Fair is playing this smart and we're just seeing the groundwork getting laid out for the next decade. I think we have a great shot at getting a thrilling signature coaster coming up.

[GCI Wooden]

I think it would be cheaper for Valleyfair to put GT-X trains on Wild Thing and improve the rider experience

 

I don't understand why people want Wild Thing's train to be switched out. Sure, it's a bathtub on wheels, but it's not uncomfortable.

 

I'm open to any new coaster as long as it isn't Vekoma. A B&M invert would be great for the park, and I would love it if one came here. Now the GTX, I've seen it on multiple people's top 5 list, and a top 5 coaster at Valleyfair would almost be too good to be true. Lightning Run looks amazing and I would love to see it at Valleyfair.

 

Just a question, but the squeezing wheels on Lightning Run, is that normal? And what causes it?

[grsupercity]

I think it would be cheaper for Valleyfair to put GT-X trains on Wild Thing and improve the rider experience

 

I don't understand why people want Wild Thing's train to be switched out. Sure, it's a bathtub on wheels, but it's not uncomfortable.

 

I'm open to any new coaster as long as it isn't Vekoma. A B&M invert would be great for the park, and I would love it if one came here. Now the GTX, I've seen it on multiple people's top 5 list, and a top 5 coaster at Valleyfair would almost be too good to be true. Lightning Run looks amazing and I would love to see it at Valleyfair.

 

Just a question, but the squeezing wheels on Lightning Run, is that normal? And what causes it?

 

I dont understand all the hate on this forum towards Vekoma. Yes there older concepts were not the best, but they have came a long long way. I would take Deja Vu any day of the week before Gatekeeper. You should should be praying for a Intamin mega lite. Now thats a ride. Invert is the one thing B&M always get right (in my eyes, my opinion) Hopefully some of the smaller parks get love in 2016

[VF15]

I think it would be cheaper for Valleyfair to put GT-X trains on Wild Thing and improve the rider experience

 

I don't understand why people want Wild Thing's train to be switched out. Sure, it's a bathtub on wheels, but it's not uncomfortable.

Yeah, I don't think that new trains would make Wild Thing that much better. I'd rather have Chance come in and redesign the turnaround to make it more forceful and exciting, or give the ride a new braking system that would allow them to not trim it so hard at the MCBR. They should at least do something of that sort to it because I think that the GP is getting bored with Wild Thing. All the time I hear people on the final brake run saying stuff like "That wasn't so bad" and "Renegade/Steel Venom is better".

[ariznglori]

Yeah, I don't think that new trains would make Wild Thing that much better. I'd rather Chance come in and redesign the turnaround to make it more forceful and exciting, or give the ride a new braking system that would allow them to not trim it so hard at the MCBR. They should at least do something of that sort to it because I think that the GP is getting bored with Wild Thing. All the time I hear people on the final brake run saying stuff like "That wasn't so bad" and "Renegade/Steel Venom is better".

 

If they redesign the turnaround, they might as well throw in new trains. I don't understand what it is about the current trains that people enjoy. I like my hypercoasters with trains that are open enough to feel the wind and the speed, and the current trains aren't. I don't think I'm alone in saying the bathtub trains are just not thrilling. For me, they neuter the ride as much as the mcbr, and are a cheaper fix than a reprofiling (which would hopefully include a steeper first drop). Excalibur was a more thrilling, if a bit more uncomfortable, experience for me, and I rerode it more than Wild Thing because Wild Thing is about a mile of letdown that is conquered in one go with an average audience reception of "meh". Wild Thing is also Valleyfair's most iconic ride, and it should and could ride like an iconic ride.

 

I don't want to sound harsh or slam, because the park is charming and a great overall experience. But this is a no-brain easy solution that can refresh what was a huge investment with a comparatively microscopic cost.

[DanTheBooker]

Even though Lightning Run looks good, don't we have enough Chance/Arrow/Morgan style track at VF? Still think a Patriot/Talon style B&M invert is the next new coaster. Even though it concerns me that CW is rumored to be getting one and may have an SLC to donate.

[VF15]

^

Well, Canada's Wonderland did just remove SkyRider this year, and I don't know if that spot is where their 2016 coaster is going, but I don't know why they'd remove a coaster two years in a row unless they had a good reason to.

 

The Twin Cities are booming and the metro is expected to exceed 4 million people by 2020. That's almost double the size of Worlds of Fun's market, and they have an invert already. Valleyfair is a more challenging park to make additions to with the flooding, weather, airport height restrictions and limited park size, but it seems that the park is being geared up to be able to handle the crowds of a larger metro. I think Cedar Fair is playing this smart and we're just seeing the groundwork getting laid out for the next decade. I think we have a great shot at getting a thrilling signature coaster coming up.

 

I've been confused by this too. Minneapolis-St. Paul is the 16th largest metro area in the U.S., so Valleyfair being the size it is seems a bit odd, considering that metro areas like Cincinnati, Charlotte, and Richmond are all smaller but have arguably better CF parks.

[valleyfairfanatic]

Just noticed valleyfair retweeted themeparkreview's tweet regarding the release of the new no limits wing coaster. Does this mean something? Again, I could just be reading into it too far. I just thought it was odd, and it was the first time I've ever seen them retweet themeparkreview's tweet.

[GCI Wooden]

^I hope it means something, such as a potential wing coaster in the future.

 

About CW, I highly doubt that they would remove a coaster, and then remove another coaster the year afterwards.

[VF15]

Just noticed valleyfair retweeted themeparkreview's tweet regarding the release of the new no limits wing coaster. Does this mean something? Again, I could just be reading into it too far. I just thought it was odd, and it was the first time I've ever seen them retweet themeparkreview's tweet.

They probably retweeted it because a few days ago they retweeted a post from NoLimits showing someone's recreation of Valleyfair (which is actually pretty good). I wouldn't read into it.

[valleyfairfanatic]

That makes a lot more sense now, thank you for clarifying.

[patrick_rc_fan]

If Cedar Fair was to put new trains on Wild Thing, I could only see them buying new B&M trains, like on Steel Dragon 2000.

[Lareson]

The B&M trains would put a serious hamper on Wild Thing. For one, Steel Dragon and Wild Thing uses 2 different track styles. Wild Thing uses inner rails and Steel Dragon uses outer rails, like what Intamin and B&M uses. It was easy for B&M to make those trains because it used an outer rail and all they had to do was adjust the width of the bogies to accommodate the track. The issue with the inner rails is that it requires a completely different bogie configuration that B&M doesn't have designed. There's also a serious height restriction because of the raised heartline and clearance issues. Steel Dragon has a 6' 1" height limit, which is VERY low compared to some other companies that has height limits. That would put a big hamper on the park because most of the adult male US population is around that height and would no longer be able to ride a coaster they previous could. In Japan, that's alright because they're average height is much lower than the US.

 

I think those trains were a 1-off design that Nagashima Spa Land had to do because those Morgan trains were seriously flawed and with how strict Japan is with their coasters, they were probably past their expected lifetime. I wouldn't mind seeing the trains used on Lightning Run as a good replacement to some of the aging chassis on the inner rail hyper coasters. I wouldn't mind the Arrow hypers to get new trains, or at least new lap bars that conform to your hips, instead of being a thinly padded steel tube holding you in.

[VF15]

Yep, I unfortunately don't see B&M trains on Wild Thing for those reasons Lareson mentioned, especially the height limit. Even though Wild Thing isn't the most amazing hyper, I'd still be bummed if I wasn't able to ride it anymore. I'd rather see Change redesign and retrack the turnaround because WT is quite thrilling from the drop to the third hill, but after that, it's still fun but it just doesn't match up. Then again, a redesigning/retracking might not be possible because I have no idea whether or not the current trains and the track Chance would use are compatible. I also don't know if the Lightning Run-style trains would work either, but hopefully they could.

[ariznglori]

Lightning Run trains are the best option, and already work on the same track style. Just watching the footage, they are more open to the wind than Wild Thing's trains and don't affect the airtime negatively. New trains can get more bang for the buck without the cost of a reprofile--not that Wild Thing couldn't benefit from an overhaul (Phantom's Revenge is tremendously better than Steel Phantom). And it's been hinted that Cedar Fair may pull another Rougarou or two, and while that may just mean more floorless B&M conversions, it can also mean new trains on older coasters that have lost their wow factor (Morgan hypers). It's a trend now to revamp wood coasters, and old steel is the next logical step.

[CaliforniaPinto]

Why would you prefer them to waste money on new trains for Wild Thing instead of investing that money in a new attraction? The trains are just fine. They work for Mamba, Steel Force and Steel Eel - why is it such a burden to have the trains on Wild Thing? Seriously - there are things the park needs much more than new trains on a coaster that is already popular with the crowds.

 

As far as the Rougaru conversions - they are speaking about the two Vortex stand up coasters being converted.

[valleyfairfanatic]

Why would you prefer them to waste money on new trains for Wild Thing instead of investing that money in a new attraction? The trains are just fine. They work for Mamba, Steel Force and Steel Eel - why is it such a burden to have the trains on Wild Thing? Seriously - there are things the park needs much more than new trains on a coaster that is already popular with the crowds.

 

As far as the Rougaru conversions - they are speaking about the two Vortex stand up coasters being converted.

 

[ariznglori]

Why would you prefer them to waste money on new trains for Wild Thing instead of investing that money in a new attraction? The trains are just fine. They work for Mamba, Steel Force and Steel Eel - why is it such a burden to have the trains on Wild Thing? Seriously - there are things the park needs much more than new trains on a coaster that is already popular with the crowds.

 

As far as the Rougaru conversions - they are speaking about the two Vortex stand up coasters being converted.

 

With the coming and continued investment by Cedar Fair, I don't see why new trains are a waste of money. Valleyfair invested ten million in Wild Thing when it was built, and it's now one of the more boring coasters in the park. With Valleyfair's limited size, every ride has to count, and while flats are more easily placed and removed, rollercoasters stay for decades.

 

Wild Thing takes up a significant amount of room in the turnaround alone. The ride experience should justify the space used and the money spent, and it currently falls short. Trains that at least let you experience the ride at its possible best can help. Chance Morgan hypers are about speed (says so on the Chance website) and Wild Thing doesn't really feel fast when you ride in a bathtub that shields you from the chest down. In fact, in parts it feels downright slow. But according to the stats the ride is not slow. Riders are prevented from feeling the speed. Easy fix here, thankfully--Lightning Run trains, lower profile and better restraints! And made by the same company for the same track, no fuss no muss. They would be amazing on a coaster built to be fast.

 

Just because other parks seem to be fine with old trains doesn't mean that they are. Steel Dragon switched and the ride experience improved. Why can't Valleyfair be the innovator in the USA and do something different?

 

And I don't see how improving the attractions you have will prevent great future development. The next two years are going to be waterpark improvements anyway from what has been gathered, so why not improve Wild Thing so the dry park has something too? The trains will not steal a potential new coaster out of the investment budget, that's absurd. They're spending how much this year on waterslides--several million (I think 8)?

 

And regarding Vortex conversions, I am aware of that. But if successful, they will start changing trains on other kinds of coasters to keep them palatable (think discount coaster wars) so I won't rule out train replacements on other coaster types.

[CaliforniaPinto]

Why would you prefer them to waste money on new trains for Wild Thing instead of investing that money in a new attraction? The trains are just fine. They work for Mamba, Steel Force and Steel Eel - why is it such a burden to have the trains on Wild Thing? Seriously - there are things the park needs much more than new trains on a coaster that is already popular with the crowds.

 

As far as the Rougaru conversions - they are speaking about the two Vortex stand up coasters being converted.

 

With the coming and continued investment by Cedar Fair, I don't see why new trains are a waste of money. Valleyfair invested ten million in Wild Thing when it was built, and it's now one of the more boring coasters in the park. With Valleyfair's limited size, every ride has to count, and while flats are more easily placed and removed, rollercoasters stay for decades.

 

Wild Thing takes up a significant amount of room in the turnaround alone. The ride experience should justify the space used and the money spent, and it currently falls short. Trains that at least let you experience the ride at its possible best can help. Chance Morgan hypers are about speed (says so on the Chance website) and Wild Thing doesn't really feel fast when you ride in a bathtub that shields you from the chest down. In fact, in parts it feels downright slow. But according to the stats the ride is not slow. Riders are prevented from feeling the speed. Easy fix here, thankfully--Lightning Run trains, lower profile and better restraints! And made by the same company for the same track, no fuss no muss. They would be amazing on a coaster built to be fast.

 

Just because other parks seem to be fine with old trains doesn't mean that they are. Steel Dragon switched and the ride experience improved. Why can't Valleyfair be the innovator in the USA and do something different?

 

And I don't see how improving the attractions you have will prevent great future development. The next two years are going to be waterpark improvements anyway from what has been gathered, so why not improve Wild Thing so the dry park has something too? The trains will not steal a potential new coaster out of the investment budget, that's absurd. They're spending how much this year on waterslides--several million (I think 8)?

 

And regarding Vortex conversions, I am aware of that. But if successful, they will start changing trains on other kinds of coasters to keep them palatable (think discount coaster wars) so I won't rule out train replacements on other coaster types.

 

I am sorry, there is no quantifiable evidence to support anything you stated in your post. While you, PERSONALLY, might feel that the ride is now "one of the more boring coasters in the park," rider turnstyle clicks do not support your hypothesis. Also there is no proof that the ride experience would be improved upon with different style trains. The fact of the matter is that this is Cedar Fair. The trains current on the coaster work just fine. They're not hindering the ride in anyway and the turnstyle clicks do not warrant different trains.

 

As far as your last paragraph - please explain to me how spending money on new trains will not take away potential money for future projects? Do you honestly think that the money for new trains will just come out of thin air and will be in addition to any money that would go towards new projects? It won't happen that way - trust me. I realize Cedar Fair has earmarked the park for growth, but let's not just throw money at things that don't need to be fixed just because some one has a flashier train than the one that you currently have

[Lareson]

Yeah, that's a good point. New trains on Wild Thing are of course not on the priority list, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. Considering that Morgan no longer exists, it's really hard to say what could happen. If parts become scarce, that could give a good reason to get new rolling stock. If Chance is still making some of the parts for the Morgan coasters, that could give a reason to not replace them. Not everything lasts forever and we've already seen several coasters and rides from closed manufacturers, especially ones that made proprietary parts, that have been taken down because of that reason.

 

About budgets, they're set years in advance. If the park is looking to purchase a new set of trains, the budged has more than likely been approved for it for at least a year, if not more. The capital expenditure budget is way more flexible than it was in the past, where I think it was set to something like 9% of profits or something. If the park needs to purchase new trains because they found that they were starting to become mechanically unsound, then yes, Cedar Fair will indeed replace them, whether or not it's fits into the budget. They would actually be a rather cheap investment too, considering that it would more than likely come well under $2mil to replace all 3 trains on Wild Thing so the "sacrifice" to the budget would actually be of little impact.

 

A lot of the major improvements have already been made, especially in the markets that are growing quickly. Valleyfair is one of them, but also one of the toughest parks to work with since it's pretty much boxed in by the flood line. Pretty much where the developed park boundaries are right now, that's about as big as it can get without having to deal with the flooding issues and the high cost of trying to build on it. Yes, there are attractions that can be taken out and replaced with new ones, but in the long run, I really don't see Valleyfair's midways expanding. It's why we've seen things like the catering area being pushed out towards the edge of the park to make room for Route 76. It's also why we've seen most of CF's Go-Kart attractions removed, they take up too much room and the high cost of operations and the profit made by those, if any, has now been replaced by things like FastLane.

[ariznglori]

I am sorry, there is no quantifiable evidence to support anything you stated in your post. While you, PERSONALLY, might feel that the ride is now "one of the more boring coasters in the park," rider turnstyle clicks do not support your hypothesis. Also there is no proof that the ride experience would be improved upon with different style trains. The fact of the matter is that this is Cedar Fair. The trains current on the coaster work just fine. They're not hindering the ride in anyway and the turnstyle clicks do not warrant different trains.

 

As far as your last paragraph - please explain to me how spending money on new trains will not take away potential money for future projects? Do you honestly think that the money for new trains will just come out of thin air and will be in addition to any money that would go towards new projects? It won't happen that way - trust me. I realize Cedar Fair has earmarked the park for growth, but let's not just throw money at things that don't need to be fixed just because some one has a flashier train than the one that you currently have

 

Where are your turnstile tables? I'd like to see the clicks generated by Wild Thing, as you must have seen them laid out in a nice chart. I'd also like to see them next to the ride's hourly capacity. Because the ride must be drowning in guests clambering to get on. By all means, share.

 

What I do have is a general consensus from my experience with other riders, that the coaster looks better than it feels. Short of an expensive redesign, the easiest and cheapest fix would be to replace the trains. Which Cedar Fair has demonstrated it is willing to consider for its underperforming coasters. So this is not outside of reason.

 

The money for the trains will of course come from investment money in the scenario as I see it. We can't fit a Fury 325 at Valleyfair short of buying new land and improving berms to remove the flood risk. But we can seriously improve the hyper we do have for much less and get a killer new invert AND expand the waterpark. The waterpark is already happening, the invert cannot happen without Dinos leaving barring some major park rearrangement or heavy ingenuity. The hyper is doable while we wait for Dinos to leave. Trains are not as much as a windseeker by a long shot, or a quality dark ride. But as others have pointed out, how likely are those right now with a waterpark focus? Not saying I'm opposed to them, just trying to be pragmatic.

 

The park is also making more off its pool of guests than other similar Cedar Fair parks, and its regional population is growing by leaps and bounds and will be double the size of the others in a decade.

 

So no, I'm not worried about the park losing money for new attractions if it is improving the first ride guests see from the entrance that makes them say "I gotta ride it!" The signature ride cannot be a letdown; it doesn't meet expectations, and more people prefer the MOA park to Valleyfair because it exceeds expectations. Valleyfair isn't the only game in town, and it's the less favored from comparisons between the two. Improvements are necessary to minimise disappointment from new guests and to insulate future profits. Including improving existing coasters.

[CaliforniaPinto]

I do not have the clicks available to publish but even you cannot deny the fact they are more quantifiable than your guest satisfaction claims. Sorry, just because you think the coaster needs new trains does not merit the purchase of new ones. Like mentioned above, short of the park being forced to purchase new ones due to the current stock becoming mechanically unsound, it's not happening.

 

Time to move on.