Against Leather and Animal Testing !!!!

[Ed]

The thing is, these videos are not an accurate depicition of animal death.

 

99.99% of animals killed will be done so in a humane way, PETA and other animal-tree-hugging orgnaisations make the so called "problem" seem much larger than it is.

 

You can bet that some of these videos are staged by animal activists to make people think that this happens in every single animal killing facility.

 

I think it's quite funny to see how PETA can brainwash so many people into donating them money.

[TheArchfiend]

I must be one of the only vegans in the world that doesn't agree with PETA, much at all. I'm against the eating of any animal flesh or the killing of any animal.

 

PETA acts like it should make a differance that some animals execution for product should be done humanely? Why? It's gonna die either way. If I was a wearer of leather or eater of meat I wouldn't be the slightest bit concerened if they put a bullet in my steers head or slowly bled him to death to put my steak on my plate or jacket on my back.

 

I've seen numerous pamphlets and website stories from PETA regarding the cruel treatement of animals such as cows and chickens on the farms showing their horrible living conditions before they are sent to the slaughter house. And? What is that supposed to mean? Is PETA trying to say that a species rasied only for immenant TERMINATION is supposed to be raised nicely?

 

Oh PETA, you make me wonder sometimes.

[BeemerBoy]

99.99% of animals killed will be done so in a humane way, PETA and other animal-tree-hugging orgnaisations make the so called "problem" seem much larger than it is.

 

Well, we could all argue this issue for hours. I think the bottom line point that is trying to be made by animal activists is this: If indeed, for instance, "99.99%" of animals are killed in a humane way, then why not 100%? Why does there need to be 00.01% torturing animals before they end up on my plate? I'm not a vegan, and far from a treehuggin' hippie, but I am a strong supporter of animal rights. Yes, animals are killed in mass quantities for food. Yes, I eat many of them. But yes, I also feel better knowing they were not tortured prior to death. And that's the point...why not just kill them in a fast, painless manner?

 

It's like diet sodas claiming "just one calorie." Why keep that last calorie?

[goleafsgo]

Well, we could all argue this issue for hours. I think the bottom line point that is trying to be made by animal activists is this: If indeed, for instance, "99.99%" of animals are killed in a humane way, then why not 100%? Why does there need to be 00.01% torturing animals before they end up on my plate? I'm not a vegan, and far from a treehuggin' hippie, but I am a strong supporter of animal rights. Yes, animals are killed in mass quantities for food. Yes, I eat many of them. But yes, I also feel better knowing they were not tortured prior to death. And that's the point...why not just kill them in a fast, painless manner?

 

how can you expect every single animal in the world that is killed for food to be killed in a humane way?

[weeow]

You can't. It's impossible.

 

I can't live without meat, but I don't wear leather or furs. But those people could just hack their heads off in one swift movement and not cause the poor thing any suffering.

[Hercules]

I'm sure it is very far from "99.99%" of anmials. That is a little out there.

 

I'm not saying that all slaughter houses are dirt holes. However, there are a whole lot of them out there that treat animals in horrible ways. There are places like organic or CSA farms that treat their animals very well. I'm sure there are a lot of smaller farms out there that treat their animals with respect too. Most of the mass production farms however are a totally different story, and those are the people that should be focused on here. Those aniamls are the ones that are seeing horrible lives and are killed in horrible fashions. There is a reason why there is a high turnover of workers within the meat industry. The average worker lasts 3 months on the job, and that is an average. Just think, there are people that last even less time.

 

Now, I won't disagree that PETA is an organization that has their own beliefs, but I believe most of the stuff that they put out there and a lot of their stats are well researched, and are actually done out of house. However, they are certainly not the KKK or anything like that.

 

I will also say that I don't necessarily agree with some of the ways that PETA tries to raise awareness. There is no need for nude people dancing around in elephant masks or anything like that. Though, I have to agree with their principle.

[BeemerBoy]

Well, we could all argue this issue for hours. I think the bottom line point that is trying to be made by animal activists is this: If indeed, for instance, "99.99%" of animals are killed in a humane way, then why not 100%? Why does there need to be 00.01% torturing animals before they end up on my plate? I'm not a vegan, and far from a treehuggin' hippie, but I am a strong supporter of animal rights. Yes, animals are killed in mass quantities for food. Yes, I eat many of them. But yes, I also feel better knowing they were not tortured prior to death. And that's the point...why not just kill them in a fast, painless manner?

 

how can you expect every single animal in the world that is killed for food to be killed in a humane way?

I can't. I can hope for it.

[Rollerholden]

^And just because they're raised to be slaughtered, doesn't make them any less of an animal.

[weeow]

^Very nice point.

 

I kinda wonder how people can't show any compassion whilst skinning a living thing a live. I couldn't even touch the thing. I'd be vomiting and tearing up and all that stuff.

[Hercules]

^ All people are different. People have their own views and opinions.

[Rollerholden]

^If you did vomit, it wouldn't be cleaned out in some slaughter factories.

[Calaway Park]

Fur coats, poaching and stuff like that bothers me... but...

 

When people talk about killing animals in a humane way, do they realise that we are also animals and we are killing for our own survival? So I see, its ok for a bear to slowly torture a rabit to death but its different if a human does it. Oooooooh I see. that makes LOTs of sence.

[Rollerholden]

^ And do you realize that nature intends for bears to eat fish(..or rabbits)? I'm not telling you what to eat, do whatever you want, but people don't need to eat meat. You can get the proteins other ways.

 

I think I'm done with this thread.

[crispy]

I have read this whole thread, and it is VERY intresting to me

 

here are my opinions

 

PETA is an extreme orginazation, who's tactics aim to shock people into believing that the cruelty witnessed is the norm, and not the exception.

 

If Peta's videos are to be believed, then so are the other extreme sites like Peta sucks and Peta Kills animals

 

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/petaVictims.cfm

 

Obviously this is a very personal choice, but before anyone makes a jump to support an orginazation like Peta, look outside thier websites to see what they actually do, for example

 

Fund Domestic Terrorist Groups

 

Protest and smear orginazations like the March or Dimes, American Red Cross, and the American Heart Association

 

I think some of the basic ideals behind Peta, like try to abolish animal cruelty, are great, but I have a very big problem with how they go about thier business

 

Its sorta like those crazy people who like to blow up abortion clinics, same tactics, diffrent cause

[BeemerBoy]

When people talk about killing animals in a humane way, do they realise that we are also animals and we are killing for our own survival? So I see, its ok for a bear to slowly torture a rabit to death but its different if a human does it. Oooooooh I see. that makes LOTs of sence.

 

This was a joke, right? Right?

[Hercules]

I have read this whole thread, and it is VERY intresting to me

 

here are my opinions

 

PETA is an extreme orginazation, who's tactics aim to shock people into believing that the cruelty witnessed is the norm, and not the exception.

 

If Peta's videos are to be believed, then so are the other extreme sites like Peta sucks and Peta Kills animals

 

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/petaVictims.cfm

 

Obviously this is a very personal choice, but before anyone makes a jump to support an orginazation like Peta, look outside thier websites to see what they actually do, for example

 

Fund Domestic Terrorist Groups

 

Protest and smear orginazations like the March or Dimes, American Red Cross, and the American Heart Association

 

I think some of the basic ideals behind Peta, like try to abolish animal cruelty, are great, but I have a very big problem with how they go about thier business

 

Its sorta like those crazy people who like to blow up abortion clinics, same tactics, diffrent cause

 

Very interesting stuff here, and thanks for posting.

 

I personally try to evaluate ever view point that I possibly can. I read books of different view points, watch videos with different views, magazine articles etc. I do that with just about everything - politics, animals, how to paint a house, how to throw a bowling ball, whatever. I understand your point on that, and I really do think that people should try to understand other peoples opinions instead of just telling them what is right and what is wrong when they are only taking their side into account.

 

As far as PETA killing animals, that is a very over blown thing in my opinion. The only reason PETA would choose to kill an animal would be if it is the most humane thing to do. Yes, PETA does kill animals, but they do it in the most humane way that they can, and only if it is the "right" thing to do. If a dog is severly crippled and the is little to no chance of saving it, they will be put to sleep. If a deer is hit by a car and suffering on the side of the road, instead of prolonging its suffering, something should be done and the body should be disposed of. Somethimes it is just the right thing to do to prevent an animal from either suffering or just plain having a terrible life.

 

PETA has given money to the very extreme animal rights activists in places like the UK. I believe it is something that they are trying to get away from now because they kind of want to improve their image in terms of that kind of stuff.

 

PETA does protest organizations like the March of Dimes and other organizations because of their testing on animals. I know there have been long debates about this in the past pages of this thread about saving human lives, but animal testing, in my opinion, is not the way to do it. Besides, I have already stated my case about how things like heart disease, cancer and other diseases could be prevented before they even start.

 

I also have a problem with the way PETA acts sometimes, as I have also stated. Some things I don't agree with, but others I think are warrented. However, they certainly aren't the ones that are going out and blowing things up. They do things like nude protests (which I don't agree with) and they try not to disturb the peace the best they can. I'm personally not a protesting kind of person. I have done it before, but I do my absolute best to do it legally. You can protest and not look like a total ass, even though there are people that believe otherwise. I think that people will listen if you talk to them rationally and give them the facts upfront. PETA believes, in most cases, that attention has to be brought to them, but then they get bad press for it and get and image like the crazy bag lady down the street that hangs out a Turkey Hill. I think their overall messages are great, and if you really take the time to sit and read the literature that they have, it is exceptional and very informative and well laid out. I just think that more people would be open to their messages if they didn't do "extreme" things.

 

I will stick to my letter writing and such and see how it all works.

[goleafsgo]

calaway park that was a very stupid post...

[Hercules]

^ I'm sorry to bring this up, but how can you make a comment like that when you have made a few comments that have essentially mocked this thread, topic, and vegetarians in general?

 

A couple of examples being:

 

you know what i hate, when you ask for your steak medium and it comes like hardly cooked with blood in the middle...

 

^ Yeah I don't think most people know what the actual process is.

 

dont they just force them into the slaught house then cut off their heads or something?

 

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intent with those posts, but the way they sounded at the time and the placement of them just didn't sit right with me.

[BiCoastal Kid]

^ And do you realize that nature intends for bears to eat fish(..or rabbits)? I'm not telling you what to eat, do whatever you want, but people don't need to eat meat. You can get the proteins other ways.

 

I think I'm done with this thread.

 

yeah, bears can eat berries, too, but they choose to eat more rabbits and fish. Much like I could live off of rice, tofu, and diet Dr. pepper, but i like to have a burger here and there, too.

[Ed]

calaway park that was a very stupid post...

 

No he actually made sense.

 

We have hunted animals for a long time. Since the dawn of man we've killed other things for survival. Yes it's possible to get what we extract from meat from other places. But it's in some cases harder.

 

And now that we've been able to "mass-produce" animals and breed them for food. There's no reason why we should all become vegans and leave the animals alone.

[BiCoastal Kid]

I think this is where they say, "But now that we're intelligent enough we should stop eating them."

[Ed]

And then the rest of the meat-eating world, doesn't care..

[Hercules]

^^ Hey, nice little point there, but I don't take the route.

 

I'm actually going to go a different way and talk about the effects of the mass production of vegetables and animals has on the environment. Yes, I'm switching it up a little bit. Now I guess this is where you say "Wow. With a name like Hercules - such a tough name and being named after one of the roughest wooden coasters ever - I can't believe you are a vegetarian pansy AND a tree hugger. What a freak!". Well, please here me out on this one.

 

I am actually a huge advocate against industrial farming in general, not just against the fact that animals are involved. Here are just a few points about it:

 

The mass production and growth of vegetables in the way that it is done is very bad for the soil. This is because there is a large amount of manure and pesticides that go into the soil. These chemicals and manure are flushed deep into the ground and the surrounding areas by the huge amounts of water that are used.

 

I'm sorry for not having the exact stat in front of me or in my head, but in order to produce one pound of meat it takes 100 times more water than producing one pound of ______ vegetables. Vegetables that are not grown organically and done in the methods that are used to mass produce take up more water too. Though, there is a misconception that organic is the best way, even that is not the best way, thought it is better considering little pesticides are used (yes, pesticides are still used for most organic produce) and there are some very large organic farms that use a lot of water. You might be saying "Of course they use water. Plants don't grow without water". Much less water would be used if there were smaller independent farms out there.

 

The large industrialized farms are putting the small farmers out of business much like the large corporations are putting small businesses out of business.

 

"But, there are so many people out there. We have to feed them all". True, there might be more food going out to more homes throughout the country and world, but it is not necessary to do it the way the United States does it. The United States no long considers agriculture, agriculture. It is called Agri-business. There is no regard for the soil or the Earth that we are using. The methods that are used do not produce the best quality foods either. These methods are actually some of the worst methods for the soil too. The way things are now being produced is destroying the land that we call "home". It is not just the way that we mass produce meat, but also fruits and vegetables, and that is pretty sad.

 

Now obviously, I find the way that animals are exploited to be the more immediate need to attend to considering there are animals suffered and these practices are killing the environment. As a whole though, I blame society and industrialization. Sure, industrialization has been a big thing for our life now, but what about our future?

[crispy]

I have read this whole thread, and it is VERY intresting to me

 

here are my opinions

 

PETA is an extreme orginazation, who's tactics aim to shock people into believing that the cruelty witnessed is the norm, and not the exception.

 

If Peta's videos are to be believed, then so are the other extreme sites like Peta sucks and Peta Kills animals

 

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/petaVictims.cfm

 

Obviously this is a very personal choice, but before anyone makes a jump to support an orginazation like Peta, look outside thier websites to see what they actually do, for example

 

Fund Domestic Terrorist Groups

 

Protest and smear orginazations like the March or Dimes, American Red Cross, and the American Heart Association

 

I think some of the basic ideals behind Peta, like try to abolish animal cruelty, are great, but I have a very big problem with how they go about thier business

 

Its sorta like those crazy people who like to blow up abortion clinics, same tactics, diffrent cause

 

Very interesting stuff here, and thanks for posting.

 

I personally try to evaluate ever view point that I possibly can. I read books of different view points, watch videos with different views, magazine articles etc. I do that with just about everything - politics, animals, how to paint a house, how to throw a bowling ball, whatever. I understand your point on that, and I really do think that people should try to understand other peoples opinions instead of just telling them what is right and what is wrong when they are only taking their side into account.

 

As far as PETA killing animals, that is a very over blown thing in my opinion. The only reason PETA would choose to kill an animal would be if it is the most humane thing to do. Yes, PETA does kill animals, but they do it in the most humane way that they can, and only if it is the "right" thing to do. If a dog is severly crippled and the is little to no chance of saving it, they will be put to sleep. If a deer is hit by a car and suffering on the side of the road, instead of prolonging its suffering, something should be done and the body should be disposed of. Somethimes it is just the right thing to do to prevent an animal from either suffering or just plain having a terrible life.

 

PETA has given money to the very extreme animal rights activists in places like the UK. I believe it is something that they are trying to get away from now because they kind of want to improve their image in terms of that kind of stuff.

 

PETA does protest organizations like the March of Dimes and other organizations because of their testing on animals. I know there have been long debates about this in the past pages of this thread about saving human lives, but animal testing, in my opinion, is not the way to do it. Besides, I have already stated my case about how things like heart disease, cancer and other diseases could be prevented before they even start.

 

I also have a problem with the way PETA acts sometimes, as I have also stated. Some things I don't agree with, but others I think are warrented. However, they certainly aren't the ones that are going out and blowing things up. They do things like nude protests (which I don't agree with) and they try not to disturb the peace the best they can. I'm personally not a protesting kind of person. I have done it before, but I do my absolute best to do it legally. You can protest and not look like a total ass, even though there are people that believe otherwise. I think that people will listen if you talk to them rationally and give them the facts upfront. PETA believes, in most cases, that attention has to be brought to them, but then they get bad press for it and get and image like the crazy bag lady down the street that hangs out a Turkey Hill. I think their overall messages are great, and if you really take the time to sit and read the literature that they have, it is exceptional and very informative and well laid out. I just think that more people would be open to their messages if they didn't do "extreme" things.

 

I will stick to my letter writing and such and see how it all works.

 

WOW, thanks for a intelligent response.

 

With Peta Killing animals, I was just trying to make a point, if those disgusting videos are to be believed, then the other has to be taken into account as well

 

Again, I do like some of the messages of PETA, but realy have a great distaste for thier tactics, for example, the recent Beyonce thing

 

As for the vegitarian debate,

 

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_087.html

 

Dear Cecil:

 

Is man a meat-eater or a vegetarian by nature? According to the enclosed clipping from a vegetarian magazine, "The intestinal length of carnivores (meat-eating animals) is three times the body length to allow for quick removal of flesh wastes that putrefy in the intestines. Man's intestine length, like other herbivores, is six times his body length and is designed for digesting vegetables, grains, and fruits." I'm not a meat-eater but my girlfriend is and she is not convinced man is a natural vegetarian. We decided to leave it up to you. (Why I agreed to this I don't know, it's obvious from your aggressive tone that you like your steak rare.) Please, don't embarrass yourself by quoting that garbage from the National Beef Council that meat is our best source of protein. Even high school kids know better than that. --L. Williams, Culver City, California

 

Cecil replies:

 

Listen, wimp--whoops, too aggressive. Gimme some of that tofu burger. Ah, I can feel the testosterone receding already. Now then, let us reason like gentlemen. There are some intelligent arguments for vegetarianism, but claiming that man is "naturally" herbivorous isn't one of them. The settled judgment of science is that man is an omnivore, capable of eating both meat and vegetables, much as certain four-year-olds might like to convince their mothers otherwise.

 

Like the hard-core carnivores, we have fairly simple digestive systems well suited to the consumption of animal protein, which breaks down quickly. Contrary to what your magazine article says, the human small intestine, at 23 feet, is a little under eight times body length (assuming a mouth-to-anus "body length" of three feet). This is about midway between cats (three times body length), dogs (3-1/2 times), and other well-known meat eaters on the one hand and plant eaters such as cattle (20 to 1) and horses (12 to 1) on the other. This tends to support the idea that we are omnivores.

 

Herbivores also have a variety of specialized digestive organs capable of breaking down cellulose, the main component of plant tissue. Humans find cellulose totally indigestible, and even plant eaters have to take their time with it. If you were a ruminant (cud eater), for instance, you might have a stomach with four compartments, enabling you to cough up last night's alfalfa and chew on it all over again.

 

Or you might have an enlarged cecum, a sac attached to the intestines, where rabbits and such store food until their intestinal bacteria have time to do their stuff. Digestion in such cases takes place by a process of fermentation--bacteria actually "eat" the cellulose and the host animal consumes what results, namely bacteria dung.

 

The story is roughly the same with teeth. We're equipped with an all-purpose set of ivories equally suited to liver and onions.

 

Good thing, too. I won't claim meat is the ideal source of protein, but on the whole it's better than plants. Sure, soybeans and other products of modern agriculture are pretty nutritious. But in the wild, much of the plant menu consists of leaves and stems, which are low in food value. True herbivores have to spend much of the day scrounging for snacks just to keep their strength up.

 

So make no mistake: we were born to eat meat. That's not to say you have to. There's no question that strictly from a health standpoint we'd all be a lot better off eating less meat (red meat especially) and more fruits and vegetables. But vegetarians aren't going to advance their cause by making ridiculous claims.

 

VEGETARIANS GO APE

 

Dear Cecil:

 

Your statement that "we were born to eat meat" is nonsense. In using comparative anatomy to determine what man was "meant" to eat, we should look at the species most similar to man, namely the anthropoid apes--chimpanzees, gibbons, gorillas, and orangutans. Of all animals, man's digestive organs and teeth most closely resemble these apes. In captivity, some of these animals will eat meat if forced to rather than starve to death. But in the wild, all eat a vegetarian diet.

 

Another strong clue that man is naturally a vegetarian is the fact that vegetarians in general are much healthier than omnivores. The American Dietetic Association has acknowledged that vegetarians are less at risk for a number of chronic diseases, including heart disease, some types of cancer, obesity, high blood pressure, and adult-onset diabetes.

 

Eating a healthy diet goes far beyond cutting back a bit on red meat. In a recent study of 6,500 Chinese, Dr. T. Collin Campbell of Cornell found that even though the Chinese overall eat only a fraction of the animal protein Americans do, those who ate the least animal protein nonetheless had lower risk of disease than the average Chinese. Dr. Campbell concludes, "We're basically a vegetarian species and should be eating a wide variety of plant foods and minimizing our intake of animal foods." --Glen Kime, president, Vegetarian Society of Washington, D.C.

 

Dear Glen:

 

I feel like I'm arguing that the Pope is Catholic. To clarify a point that eluded many who wrote me about this: the issue is not whether vegetarianism is healthier, better for the planet, etc., than the standard U.S. diet. I don't doubt it is. It's whether humans are naturally vegetarians.

 

Here it seems to me the best evidence is our history as a species. We have been happily eating meat for at least two million years, and probably much longer. The common view among anthropologists, in fact, is that increased meat consumption was a key element in the development of human culture, since getting and distributing the stuff requires cooperation.

 

Not all anthropoid apes are exclusively vegetarian. The primatologist Jane Goodall established more than 20 years ago that wild chimpanzees kill other animals once in a while and eat the meat with relish. Other primates (although apparently not gorillas) do so as well. It's true chimps and other apes eat a mostly veggie diet, but for that matter so do most humans. Hunter-gatherers today consume only about 35 percent meat to 65 percent vegetables (Lee and Devore, 1976). Anyway, we and the anthropoid apes diverged six to 14 million years ago--who cares what monkeys munch now?

 

Your argument that meat-eaters are more prone to chronic disease is irrelevant. Chronic disease typically strikes the old, not those of prime child-rearing age. Till recently most folks never got chronic disease because they died of the acute kind first. It's had minimal impact on our ability to reproduce ourselves, which of course is the basis of natural selection. In short, as we evolved, chronic disease did not "select out" for vegetarianism. I trust you see the significance of this.

 

There is much to be said for vegetarianism. I am at a loss to know why vegetarians cannot be content simply to say it, without taking the argument over a cliff.

 

I think that is the REAL truth, we are certainly made to eat meat, but you can survive without NOWADAYS

 

[goleafsgo]

well we can survive without meat, but id rather eat a nice big steak than a tofu salad...