Geauga Lake Discussion Thread

[ajc47]

Was it financially viable? No.

 

Example?

[Dailey Enterprizes]

Has anyone else considered similar circumstances with another park chain? Why was it so acceptable for Cedar Fair to do this? When Kennywood bought Idlewild in the nineties they did it because it was a family oriented park. Perhaps they had the opportunity to buy West View Park too, but in their words "...it doesn't make sense to buy a park that's just going to compete with their existing one." They actually said that about Conneaut Lake Park, but I'm sure the same logic applied. I think Cedar Fair should have never gotten involved with Geauga Lake. Even Robb called this from the very beginning.

[ajc47]

Has anyone else considered similar circumstances with another park chain? Why was it so acceptable for Cedar Fair to do this? When Kennywood bought Idlewild in the nineties they did it because it was a family oriented park. Perhaps they had the opportunity to buy West View Park too, but in their words "...it doesn't make sense to buy a park that's just going to compete with their existing one." They actually said that about Conneaut Lake Park, but I'm sure the same logic applied. I think Cedar Fair should have never gotten involved with Geauga Lake. Even Robb called this from the very beginning.

 

It wasn't acceptable. But there really was no way to stop them. I agree the park never should have fallen into CF's hands.

[Dailey Enterprizes]

Even if someone made the argument that the park wouldn't have survived as long without the purchase by Cedar Fair then I hope it's realized that the cost of land may not have been raised so high that development or even another possible buyer for the park was made impossible.

[mike robinson]

It is a shame it could not be saved but in this case Robb is actually right about the economics of moving the coaster. I think the guy who eventually bought the ride was trying to make money on the dismantling and rebuilding of the ride and was going to charge much more than the coaster was really worth.

 

Also something to think about, the ride was built in 1926. The Texas Cyclone was built in 1976 and a local firm was seriously considering moving the ride, but the regulations and laws had changed so much, that it was not practical. The ride had been granted "Grandfather" clauses that would have been removed if the ride was moved. So I can't even imagine how much bringing the Big Dipper up to CURRENT laws and regs would have cost.

 

It is a shame, I road it once and really enjoyed it. I think it is sad the it is being demolished but with Geuaga Lake gone it is no real surprise. Just another victim from Burke's mismanagement of Six Flags. I really can't think of a single person who did more damage to a park chain than Burke along with his toadies from Premier parks.

[ajc47]

The whole thing was a sham and had CF written all over it.

[Yamez]

What more proof do you need then the fact that it happened? If the park had been financially viable for Cedar Fair it would still be open today. Six Flags sold it because it wasn't financially viable for them. It was bad planning on all parties involved at most stages of the park.

 

To buy the park, and to then pick and choose rides from it to remove and move to your better parks I would think would be more expensive in the short term than leaving them and seeing what happens in the long term. If Robb's example applies to any large ride (See Dominator, Possessed, Firehawk, and Thunderhawk) it would cost them quite a bit to move those rides out if they didn't already see that the park was going to be heading southward.

 

I'm fairly certain this has been discussed in great detail earlier on in this thread though.

 

Its sad, yes. But business is just that, business.

[larrygator]

What more proof do you need then the fact that it happened? If the park had been financially viable for Cedar Fair it would still be open today. Six Flags sold it because it wasn't financially viable for them. It was bad planning on all parties involved at most stages of the park.

 

I agree that if the park had been financially viable CF would not have closed it.

 

However, Six Flags sold the park because they needed money to make interest payments and pay down their revolving debt. Cedar Fair was stupid enough to over a ridiculous amount of cash, which in addition to the Paramount purchase put CF in a similar debt ridden situation as SF.

[Geauga Dog]

But wouldn't it sound fishy, pardon the pun, that a company that has no experience in operating an animal park comes in and purchases a park that features animals and then tries to turn it around by eliminating one of the main attractions to the park all the while not even trying to add something to compensate for the loss of said animals? They had no plan to try to make it work and it was evident in three of the four years they owned the park.

 

At least Premier Parks/Six Flags had seen what potential the property had - they just went about it too much too soon. I don't fault them for the massive expansion in 2000, I mean, look at what the park was up against at the time - MIllennium Force and Son of Beast. How was little ol' GL going to compete with massive rides like these? They should have flagged the park after they bought Sea World. Let CP and KI have all the hoopla with their record breaking coasters and then stun everyone else the following year.

 

Oh, one last thought, I would think when considering to purchase a park they would see how viable it would be from a financial standpoint. I guess CF didn't do enough homework.

[larrygator]

^Agreed - CF never explained their game plan when purchasing GL and how it would fit in with their overall strategy.

 

Never before did a reigonal amusement park operator own three amusement parks in such close proximity (KI, CP, GL) that were sure to cannibalize each other.

 

Granted the economy certainly played a factor in GL's ultimate fate but it sure seemed like CF thought they could just buy the place and make money. Clueless? Yes.

[ajc47]

Clueless is Dick Kinzel's middle name.

[FeelTheFORCE]

Oh, one last thought, I would think when considering to purchase a park they would see how viable it would be from a financial standpoint. I guess CF didn't do enough homework.

 

I disagree with that statement. They knew very well that this park had a decent amount of solid rides (some of them star/headline attractions) that could be put to use in other CF parks. Which I believe was one of the main (and only) reasons that compelled them to buy it. That alone indicates they did their "homework" very well.

[larrygator]

^The fact that they overpaid so badly, if their strategy was to move the rides, was bad homework. They could have picked up the park less.

[FeelTheFORCE]

Understandable, but one could also argue that it will eventually "pay for itself," because of the money they would have lost if Six Flags would have continued to own it.

[Geauga Dog]

So what you're basically saying is they looked at GL as a garage sale instead of a park that was a diamond in the rough. They should get a refund for Firehawk. Kings Island can't run it any better than they did X-Flight.

[Yamez]

However, Six Flags sold the park because they needed money to make interest payments and pay down their revolving debt. Cedar Fair was stupid enough to over a ridiculous amount of cash, which in addition to the Paramount purchase put CF in a similar debt ridden situation as SF.

 

That's where I was going with the Six Flags side of things, you said it far better than I could have.

 

Clueless is Dick Kinzel's middle name.

 

A lot of hate for Kinzel and Cedar Fair it seems eh?

 

Understandable, but one could also argue that it will eventually "pay for itself," because of the money they would have lost if Six Flags would have continued to own it.

 

I honestly don't think they were going to lose any money even if Six Flags had decided to retain the property. Think about it, what did GL have that could even compete with Cedar Point or Kings Island? Villain? Raging Wolf Bobs? Dominator? The list of attractions was just pitiful compared to the offerings both north and south of the park.

[FeelTheFORCE]

^^ That doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't attract more people to the park. I'm sure a "flying coaster" sounds very intriguing to a lot of people, and those who only go once or twice a year won't really be aware of it's poor operations.

 

Understandable, but one could also argue that it will eventually "pay for itself," because of the money they would have lost if Six Flags would have continued to own it.

 

I honestly don't think they were going to lose any money even if Six Flags had decided to retain the property. Think about it, what did GL have that could even compete with Cedar Point or Kings Island? Villain? Raging Wolf Bobs? Dominator? The list of attractions was just pitiful compared to the offerings both north and south of the park.

 

Not in it's current (at that time) state, no, but where the park looked to be headed under Six Flags ownership, it very well could have.

 

Robb said it best:

 

Absoultely! Make no mistake about it. One of Six Flags' goals for that property was to re-direct paying customers away from Cedar Point.

 

That last year SFWOA was in operation they were very close to having a true "family destination" in Ohio. The marine park was great (I mean, it was groomed as a Busch Park!), the water park had some great attractions to it, and to be honest, the rides park was probably the weakest of the three parks in the package...but it was certainly getting there. If they had a hotel attached to the property, like Darien Lake does, they probably could have easily sold 2-day packages from families coming in from Pittsburgh or even Detriot. But that would have taken time and I don't think Six Flags was in a position to wait it out.

 

SFWOA actually had a lot more for "Families" to do together than Cedar Point did (and really still even does today.) Had Cedar Fair let that continue, Six Flags may have very well been real completion for Cedar Point.

 

Seriously, it was headed to be one of the nicer theme park/resort complexes in the country. And Cedar Fair wasn't about to let Six Flags have any part of that!

 

Of course we'll never know for sure, but that's why I said "one could argue."

Edited September 19, 2010 by FeelTheFORCE

[Skycoastin Steve]

They should get a refund for Firehawk. Kings Island can't run it any better than they did X-Flight.

The Greek Gods themselves couldn't run a Vekoma flyer efficiently, they just aren't efficient rides. At all.

[Defcon62]

Cedar Unfair as I prefer to call them, whatever their initial intent was regarding the park did nothing but shoot themselves in the foot from the first year. The animals were not retained and according to Fuhrer Kinzel it was because CF did not have any experience with animal parks. This excuse makes no sense as all the people needed to run the place, trainers, maintenance, zoologists etc... were all present and would have been happy to keep their jobs. As a result of this the infrastructure for all the animals was destroyed. The pump houses and exhibits like shark encounter looked like a bomb went off in them and most of the former sea world buildings and stadiums were torn down completely for the phase 2 waterpark that never happened. People complained a LOT about the animals being gone and I really didn't blame them I missed them too. It was something for the old folks to do when they were too frail for rides.

 

The second major screw up was the transplanting of the water park, As I recall nothing was wrong with the old one, yea turtle beach was kinda dated but still worked great. CF took the lowest bidder on the job and MAJORLY pissed off all the local unions for refusing to use any union labor for the water park construction. While they may have thought they were saving cash not paying for the union nonsense, Geauga Lake and SFO. SFWOA made a LOT of money off union picnics all summer long. I remember there almost always being some local 448 etc.... picnic taking place at the park before CF took over. Mind you these were big picnics were they would buy 5-6 kegs ($200+ each!!!) along with food, admission and pavilion rental. The union thing got so ugly during the construction that access to the park was tightly controlled because the union people would sneak in and vandalize non union workers equipment and projects.

 

Still on the old water park it just looked like crap laying back there, a huge eyesore for everyone to see they should have at least bulldozed it so people on the dipper, space needle, monorail and Steel Venom didn't hafta look at it.

 

Removing the haunt after 05 was brain dead, That was the busiest I ever saw the park aside from weekends in summer during the six flags era, The line for the haunted trail was easily 2 hrs as was the other haunts. Claimed they didn't want to compete with halloweekends.

 

Removing X-Flight was pointless as was removing the monorail and letting steel venom sit broken and then in the parking lot in peices, all this on top of shortening the season and missing out on increased attendance.

 

CF may have seen how well the park did during the Six Flags era and its true the place was constantly packed and thought they could cash in. In 05 the place was still pretty busy despite the animals gone in, 06 and 07 with major rides and the haunt gone it was a done deal, The place may as well have burned to the ground it might have been a more dignified death CF killed a great park and I hope Kinzel and the rest of the board chokes.

 

As for the dipper I hope things work out in the end it'll be a dark day to see it meet the wrecking ball.

 

RIP GLP

[Geauga Dog]

Wow, Defcon62, that was an awesome post! Thank you.

 

I actually supported the move of the water park to the old Sea World side because at the former location on the ride side it was landlocked and up against Route 43. However with the eventual removal of Steel Venom, X-Flight, and the temperamental monorail they could have expanded in that direction while relocating Head Spin somewhere else. But then what to do with the former animal park - sell it?

 

I remember the big push for unions to boycott GL over the whole WWK mess. But it wasn't the only time CF pissed off people. Remember when they were not going to let kids who were in the Six Flags reading program use their vouchers in 2004 and the big stink that arose from that? They rescinded that decision rather quickly.

 

They also screwed up Oktoberfest. They no longer allowed the carny trailers and eventually reduced the amount of live bands performing at the park. That killed the lively atmosphere the event always brought in.

 

Don't forget that RWB derailed in June of 2007 and was never repaired. That should have been a dead giveaway. If it was Cedar Point they would have had that ride fixed and reopened in a week.

[ajc47]

It's been established in this thread that Garbage Fair had it in for Geauga Lake from the beginning, and we should have seen it coming. WWK is in a better location, but that's about the only positive thing they did for the place in 4 years.

[Defcon62]

I forgot about the vouchers that CF rejected, I remember the new media getting involved over that. On thing that sticks out in my head as well that was very different between park operators is the SF gave out free tickets like candy especially to employees, IIRC a employee could buy up to 20 one day tickets for $12 each and 6 season passes for $30 each, they also handed out comp tickets regularly, I remember old co-workers making good money selling their comp tickets in the parking lot.

 

When CF came to town obviously the free tickets stopped with a screeching halt. they just didn't get the idea that if you let people in free you may lose the admission price but they will still happily pay lots of money for parking, food, games and upcharge stuff. It was pretty much impossible to get comp tickets during CF i don't ever remember getting any or seeing anyone get one. From what I recall I don't remember them even selling discount tix to employees either

 

I don't remember carny trailers getting kicked out, I do remember oktoberfest being packed and the midways being hard to walk through there were so many people.

 

I remember the RWB derailment well, I went in for the nightshift that day and was told about it. By then the train what was left of it was in the maintenance shed by grizzly run under a tarp. Wish I had taken some pics but trust me that last car was pretty bent up. After that incident many people asked the GM about when it would be repaired and he always gave some BS answer along the lines of "I want to make sure that we know what happened and that it will be repaired properly until then it will be closed" I thought it would be repaired because some lumber showed up on site in the following days but it just sat in the infield under a tarp. Maybe they thought the termites were hungry IDK.

 

The whole CF explanation of "we just had a board meeting and decided to close the place" the week of the announcement was a crock. The very NIGHT they made the announcement if not earlier there was equipment being brought on site by the Dominator and Thunderhawk disassembly crews. I can't imagine one can just call two erecting service companies and have them on site in a week without any prior discussion. CF knew WELL in advance they were shutting the doors and in the biggest dick move in the industry didn't tell ANYONE. Every park I can think of that has closed in the past few decades had the decency to tell the GP that "this is the last season come and enjoy it cuze this is all she wrote" Euclid Beach, Idora, Astroworld etc....

[Geauga Dog]

I remember rumors popping up around mid-summer 2007 that Dominator and Thunderhawk were going to be removed. It wasn't until mid to late August rumors began to surface stating the park was closing yet CF would not acknowledge if it was true or not, blowing it off as just internet rumors. They knew when the RWB incident occured, maybe before that.

 

They could have fixed Wolf Bobs and ran one train only. That's how they did it until they got the old Legend train. It's not like RWB was drawing hour long waits when it was open.

 

During the Funtime and SF years Oktoberfest had a lot of carny trailers popped up all over the park. When CF came in it was like they disappeared so I don't know if CF just didn't invite them back after 2004. It wasn't the same since.

[Skycoastin Steve]

So when does the incessant complaining and ranting end? The park closed three years ago.......

[FeelTheFORCE]

Every park I can think of that has closed in the past few decades had the decency to tell the GP that "this is the last season come and enjoy it cuze this is all she wrote" Euclid Beach, Idora, Astroworld etc....

 

Kentucky Kingdom.