Busch Gardens Williamsburg (BGW BGE) Discussion Thread

[BG Noeit Al]

There is no doubt that they are going to "up" their game to Disney level. After all Blackstone is an investment company. This means they are going to try and up the parks game as high as it will go and then sell it for profit. It is only a matter of time before it becomes a resort location. If you really think about it, the idea of the park being a major vacation spot is not that crazy. In fact, with the survey they sent out about paying for Christmas Town and Howl-o-Scream, means they are trying to be a bit like Tampa. This also makes me think, if they are going to charge their events like Tampa, they will probably operate like Tampa, which means open all year round. Think about it, not too crazy. Al the rumors floating around about a train station, possible expansion, a resort, a change in event ticketing. They all tie into each other, and it will happen before you know it. Consider that a heads up as to what has been put in motion.

[Bryce232]

^ I highly doubt they'd open year round just because the one in Tampa is. There's a HUGE climate difference between Florida and Virginia. I don't think the park would be able to stay open through the entire winter considering how much it can snow up there.

[BG Noeit Al]

Bryce232, it doesn't usually snow much. Honestly, there really maybe one or two snow storms at most a year. It is not like the area gets a snow storm every other week. My point is, it is doable and Blackstone is the kind of company to explore ALL ideas that could make them money. If they could open the park all year long, that would make them a lot more money. They are the kind of people to think outside of the box. Also, to further add to my information, opening all year long is not a rumor. It is a fact. It will be coming in a few years. I think they hope to be open full year by 2016. In fact, by 2016 they hope to accomplish a lot.

[coasterfreak101]

^Says who? They can't run coasters under what, 42 degrees? That knocks out the majority of the winter months right there. So how do you expect them to draw crowds to justify year-round operation, when all their big rides are closed?

[BG Noeit Al]

Coasterfreak101, with temperature restraints, they loose what 7-8 rides a day. How often do you see all 8 of those rides running perfectly all at once all day, every day they are open regularly? Maybe every so often, but not always. To my guess on any given day, I would guess that they would have 4-5 rides running perfectly all at once all day. Loosing those rides will not kill attendance too terribly, plus when you have 4 major indoor rides, people will come for those more, after all no one wants to ride a roller coaster at 30 degrees. Honestly, during Christmas Town, when the temperature is really close to closing down the coaster, how long are their lines usually? Not long, but if they added more dark rides as well as flat rides, they could justify it.

[coasterfreak101]

I've never visited BGW without all five major coasters open. I've yet to see a single one down, unless it was for a short breakdown. And I certainly wouldn't spend the money to take a weekend at BGW during the winter if I knew that no big rides would be open, unless it were during something like Christmastown, because then there's actually something exciting to draw me there. I could never see a year-round park surviving up here in the north. We have an off-season for a reason.

[cfc]

I agree that snow would not be a major factor for running BGW during the winter. However, tourism drops off sharply in Williamsburg from January to March. Colonial Williamsburg lays off much of its staff during this period--and they are open year-round.

 

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if year-round operation is being considered for the park. It is an interesting thought, but I'm not entirely convinced it's a good idea.

 

Then again, I don't work in the tourism industry.

[QueerRudie]

Coasterfreak101, with temperature restraints, they loose what 7-8 rides a day. How often do you see all 8 of those rides running perfectly all at once all day, every day they are open regularly? Maybe every so often, but not always. To my guess on any given day, I would guess that they would have 4-5 rides running perfectly all at once all day. Loosing those rides will not kill attendance too terribly, plus when you have 4 major indoor rides, people will come for those more, after all no one wants to ride a roller coaster at 30 degrees. Honestly, during Christmas Town, when the temperature is really close to closing down the coaster, how long are their lines usually? Not long, but if they added more dark rides as well as flat rides, they could justify it.

 

Your logic is heavily flawed I'm afraid... in so many ways, too.

 

1.) BGT has a LOT more traffic draw to central/coastal central Florida than Williamsburg EVER will. There's no question of that.

2.) Four major indoor rides? I count one.

3.) None of the coaster can operate below 45 degrees for any period, so there goes the 'big' draw to the rides.

4.) The winters there are FAR worse than you're letting on: Having spent a decade there in Williamsburg, I can say the ice storms are far worse than the snowstorms, and NOBODY if they're wise goes out in them.

5.) In the 1990s, BGW tried a November operations period- which went over as well as Sardine and Liverwurst flavored Ice cream with chocolate and habanero sauce: As in- not at all. The park was deserted- as in, on a good day you'd have 1200 people in the park- far less than what is needed to keep the park open.

6.) There is not a major transportation capability in the Tidewater VA area: Why do you think that Southwest is closing down operations at PHF? They're not making money on planes. Why? NO DEMAND FOR IT.

 

You're trying to make cow manure smell as fresh as roses hoping for a year round operation- and it's not going to work there. The tourisim of Tidewater VA cannot support a year round park.

 

(Now before you ask how I know this... I studied marketing and tourism patterns while at William And Mary... and in NO year from 1972-1996 did the travel pattern change at all.)

[KDcoasterMAN]

The costs of keeping BGW open during the winter months probably outweighs the profits. I doubt many people want to go to Busch Gardens Williamsburg when its 20 degrees or below and not Christmas. Christmastown has its own draw, people come for the environment not the normal park experience. Unless BGW finds a new ways to get the GP through the front door while making a profit then theirs a different story. BGT is in a warmer climate which hosts tourists all year round. Though Williamsburg has its dray year round (CW), I cannot see BGW being able to make the park year round. Honestly, they do a great job having the park open as it is, only closed about 4 months (November, January-March) out of the year isn't too bad.

[BG Noeit Al]

So you say there is 5 coasters right? Well, they could justify it if they open 2 coasters and 2 major dark rides, plus Mach Tower. Verbolten definitely will be open next year, and it is more than likely to have another coaster open, and don't forget the infamous Mach Tower. On top of that if they can market and build dark rides as great as or better than DarKastle, they can do it. Plus, you don't see Disney filled with tons of major thrill rides and they are open all year round? Despite what it may seem like now, it is coming. The plans have been made all the way up 2016. Just like with Verbolten, Mach Tower and all of Oktoberfest. They had those planned out three years from now. I have no doubt that they already have this planned out for the next four years. As far as I know, we won't see another coaster, but you can expect so much more expanding.

 

My point is, expansion is in the plans, meaning expect two or so more dark rides within the next fours years. Also, a resort is in the works and is one of their top priorities. Why else would they build a train station out at the far end of the Festhaus Park? they have added 2 major rides in 2 years. Imagine, what they can do in 4 years?

 

To QueerRudie specifically,

 

My list of but's:

 

1) They may be in a slow tourism area BUT Williamsburg is still a destination spot for many families yes the tourism is slow during the Winter but manageable.

2) Curse of DarKastle is really the only one now unless you count Europe in the Air BUT a few more major indoor rides have been planned into the next four years.

3) As many people do come to ride the rides that is true BUT Disney has less major coasters and still draws crowds in because the people they draw in could care less about intense thrill enduing roller coasters, and they have a bigger park, which an expansion is looking very favorable in the next four years.

4) The winters can be worse BUT they are not like that all the time. In fact, in the past fours years, I have lived in the Virginia area and have yet to encounter an ice storm, but I have encountered one before in the state. I believe that you seem to think that the weather is constantly harsh and that Virginia gets constant brutal ice storms every other week which would be false.

5) That may be extremely true BUT check out the size of the park and compare it to now as well as what the park features and also add the fact the park has expansion in mind as well over the next four years. Times have changed and much has been added to the park, to make it more attractive?

6) As that maybe in true in some parts BUT all they need is a highway. Many people prefer to travel by car. In fact, most people I have heard of visiting the park do not fly in, they travel by car. The few people that actually fly in, are the people from other countries.

 

I am not hoping for it to come, I know it will come within the next four years. Also, referring to you one comment, you may have studied all that back then but times have changed. I am not saying your wrong, I am just saying you are stuck in a different period. For example, there wasn't much to do at the park in those years, plus the park was under different management then. Now the park is owned by an investment company. A company that will try to build the park up as much as they can and then sell it.

 

To KDcoasterMAN specifically,

 

November is an easy month to be open. After all, it is just like fall. Opening just weekends would not hurt them that badly. Opening a weekend or so after New Years is likely, since they could instill a New Year's Celebration. After all, they were looking for a way to stay open in the spring one time and it was done. They were looking for fall opportunities and it was done. They were looking to stay open in the winter and they started. Opening around the start of March is just as likely, since it could only be weekends. Maybe close one or two months, but it is still workable and over time it can be accomplished. After all, to succeed in business, you should be able to think outside the box and say yes or at the very least maybe to every situation or after awhile, people get bored and leave.

[Yamez]

I am not hoping for it to come, I know it will come within the next four years. Also, referring to you one comment, you may have studied all that back then but times have changed. I am not saying your wrong, I am just saying you are stuck in a different period. For example, there wasn't much to do at the park in those years, plus the park was under different management then. Now the park is owned by an investment company. A company that will try to build the park up as much as they can and then sell it.

 

I'd love to know how you know.

 

Myself, my friends, and my family live in Alexandria (~5 miles from DC) which is one of the main draw points from this park. Gotta be honest with you, we have zero interest in going to visit an amusement park in the dead of winter - its not like we don't like to go out of our way to visit parks, we go to Six Flags, Hershey, Kings Dominion, Cedar Point, etc. during the spring and summer.

 

I don't see BGW getting a year round schedule, a lot of folks have no reason to travel there during those months. I'm with QR on this one, the park isn't a big enough draw on its own to support that.

[BG Noeit Al]

See that is the thing, it is not that big NOW. I am talking about within the next four years. They have plans to expand and with that, it will create a park that will be able to open year round. Yes, I am not saying everyone will flock to Busch Gardens Williamsburg during Winter, but it will still draw in crowds. No matter what time of the year is, there is always someone who want to go to the park now. I am just simply saying by 2016. Many things can happen in 4 years, especially when the park is in the hands of an investment company, which like I said will build the park up no matter what.

[Inukaza]

Yes, I am not saying everyone will flock to Busch Gardens Williamsburg during Winter, but it will still draw in crowds. No matter what time of the year is, there is always someone who want to go to the park now.

 

Because nothing's better than going 70mph on a coaster in subzero temperatures.

 

/spoken like a Floridian.

[QueerRudie]

My list of but's:

 

1) They may be in a slow tourism area BUT Williamsburg is still a destination spot for many families yes the tourism is slow during the Winter but manageable.

 

Compare this then: 13.9M tourists in Tampa in 2010 vs. 4.25M tourists to Hampton Roads/Newport news/Williamsburg in 2009 (Source: VisitTampaBay.com- the Tourist board for Tampa; Hamton Roads tourism council)

 

And that's on an ANNUAL basis. Colonial Williamsburg logged 1.7M visitors- of which 800,000 were paid tickets in 2009- the most recent year I could locate complete statistics on the area.

 

2) Curse of DarKastle is really the only one now unless you count Europe in the Air BUT a few more major indoor rides have been planned into the next four years.

 

Proof, please? Or is this speculation? Or is it fanboy dreaming yet again?

 

Busch Gardens has for the most part only listed one new attraction annually, with the exception of the Ocktoberfest expansion/Verbolten. I'd like some sort of proof that these are announced, proven in the works rides please.

 

3) As many people do come to ride the rides that is true BUT Disney has less major coasters and still draws crowds in because the people they draw in could care less about intense thrill enduing roller coasters, and they have a bigger park, which an expansion is looking very favorable in the next four years.

 

Disney is also DISNEY- as in A BRAND and CHARACTERS that people GO FOR. I don't see the Seven Duffs* being a draw at Busch Gardens... Busch Gardens thrive as a park for families- but does not have the infrastructure nor the build abilities for a park to become year round. It is not feaseable on a large scale. One of the reasons the park attracts so many family attendance is the beautiful scenery and trees- which, during the winter are barren.

 

To compare Disney to Busch would be like comparing Frontier Airlines to Southwest: Similar, both good, but one is much more popular than the other- for a good reason.

 

4) The winters can be worse BUT they are not like that all the time. In fact, in the past fours years, I have lived in the Virginia area and have yet to encounter an ice storm, but I have encountered one before in the state. I believe that you seem to think that the weather is constantly harsh and that Virginia gets constant brutal ice storms every other week which would be false.

 

And I think you need to remove your rose colored glasses.

 

According to the National Weather Service, the average daily temperture in Williamsburg from January 1st-31st is a HIGH of 47, with a low of 28. That's the 100 year average mind you. In addition, The Hampton roads area averages between 9-12 inches of snow annually, as well as between 6-8 inches of rain during the period from 1January to 31st March. The NWS also lists an average of two ice storms in that region annually, and sleet/freezing rain regularly: (Source: National Weather Service, Weather.com)

 

5) That may be extremely true BUT check out the size of the park and compare it to now as well as what the park features and also add the fact the park has expansion in mind as well over the next four years. Times have changed and much has been added to the park, to make it more attractive?

 

Let's see: In 1992: there were four 'major' coasters. In 2011, there were... Four major coasters. And a negligible drop tower. How is that a great deal of improvement, especially since three of those coasters can't be operated below 45 degrees...

 

6) As that maybe in true in some parts BUT all they need is a highway. Many people prefer to travel by car. In fact, most people I have heard of visiting the park do not fly in, they travel by car. The few people that actually fly in, are the people from other countries.

 

Actually, this is only partly true: Remember, for a year round park to succeed it needs tourists from beyond a 180 mile range to come on on a REGULAR basis- and that means people beyond the normal 4 to 6 hour drive range... and that means: AIRLINES/Air Transport.

 

When AirTran started to expand at PHF, the airport worked with the Williamsburg Chamber of Commerce, the Hampton Roads Tourism association, as well as with Busch Gardens and other tidewater attractions to BOOST the number of arrivals/departures and passenger totals via air to the attractions therein.

 

Highways are popular with smaller regional parks, but if you're going to be a year round park, you need weather, population and tourism to keep it operating. Busch, while one of my favorite places on the planet (Hell, my #1 coaster is there) is NOT one of those places. They could completely redo and expand the park up the wazoo, and it would not work: There isn't enough of the right ingredients to make the cake rise.

[ernierocker]

I would not base any argument on what is in a park's 5-yr. concept plan. With all the uncertainties that can factor into these things, the whole plan could be scrapped and the park could look completely different from it in five years.

 

So what if you have seen what the park has on some planning report. I am sure they have all sorts of models developed depending on what happens with the economy. If there was something on a piece of paper saying studies are being done on the feasibility of keeping the park open year-round, I wouldn't put much stock in it. Like most people on here are telling you, it is extremely unlikely to ever happen.

[ernierocker]

And please, if you are going to go by the moniker "Busch Gardens Know-it-all" you can at least figure out how to properly use the word "lose" and the word "loose". It makes it hard to take anything you have to say seriously, when I see this mistake over and over in your posts.

Edited December 15, 2011 by ernierocker

[netdvn]

1. The area might not experience much snow, but the temperatures can get to freezing. I'm pretty sure a good chunk of the rides won't be able to operate by then.

 

2. While V-bolt's theming *might* be able to rival Disney's theming and the company is backed by Blackstone, I doubt BGW can compare to Disney/Universal in a lot of aspects. Having worked at the park over the summer, I can't tell you how many people I saw walking around with WDW/Universal t-shirts and merchandise, even compared to the number of people wearing BGW shirts (for every few BGW shirts I saw, there was someone with a WDW shirt). That shows a lot about who Disney attracts and where they come from (people from all over the world). Disney/Universal have the marketing budget and like RD said, the characters/major movie tie-ins, not to mention the perfect location for a park. Most people coming to BGW are either locals or visitors from neighboring states (PA, NJ, MD) from observations I've made and they're not there just for BGW like people traveling to Orlando are for Disney.

 

3. Outside of the Oktoberfest update, the park hasn't really expanded that much in recent years. Most of the "expansions" were to replace existing attractions (Griffon replaces Le Mans, V-bolt replaces BBW, Europe in the Air replaces Corkscrew Hill) or to fill in gaps that needed to be filled (Mach Tower). Even if the park adds a resort and makes the long-rumored Spain expansion, I don't see the park opening full year if the temperatures keep people away and keep the rides down.

[BG Noeit Al]

You guys make great points, but you need to look at the overall big picture. Theme parks operate in years not one year at a time. They figured out what they are going to do. Verbolten is the last project under AB. Everything else will come from Blackstone. They are the ones trying to "fatten" the parks before they sell it. Plus, Blackstone has worked with other theme park chains before and made them big hot spots. Plus, Disney is a family destination, well so is Busch Gardens. It is a family destination and they can be like that year round, roller coasters are not the only thing that brings visitors to a park. Why, Busch Gardens is my favorite theme park in the world, and I do not ride any rides ever, except for Roman Rapids and a few small rides. Nothing big at all. You know what really attracts guests? Their awards. Everyone wants to see the world's most beautiful theme park, and the fact that the trees are dead doesn't mean they don't have any beauty anymore because last time I checked there are flowers that live in the cold.

 

Initially, you can take them as rumors if you want, but I see the big picture and put it all together and they all add up.

 

By the way, I am sorry for the misspelling of loose and lose. I am a fast typer and make few errors most the time, and that pops up often just because it is one o that makes them different and their meanings of course.

[netdvn]

^

Roller coasters and rides are not the main reason why people flock to the park, but they are a main factor. A good chunk of the vacationing guests I've dealt with this year were there for Mach Tower and those guests will be at the park for V-bolt too. The shows and atmosphere are also a major factor. As for the Golden Tickets, just another way to advertise the park.

 

Disney is a family destination, but not in the same vein as BGW is. BGW is a regional park that's part of a vacation package with Colonial Williamsburg, VA Beach, the other tips of the Historic Triangle, the shopping, etc. Disney is a destination park. People go to Orlando from all over the world for Disney and everything else is a side trip. Nobody outside of a few enthusiasts is gonna go to Williamsburg in the dead of winter just for BGW, even with a resort on premise, especially when everything else is closed and the weather is crappy. That doesn't make much sense for a family of four, especially when they can visit over the spring/summer and experience everything.

 

As for Blackstone operating a few parks. The Universal parks and both Legolands are located in spots where the weather is fine and there are other attractions that open year round in the area (Disney, beaches, touristy stuff). On top of that, they've already been established as destination-style parks (Universal Orlando) or have a popular name attached to them (Legoland).

 

- In the end having BGW operate year round makes as much sense as having KD operate year round.

[jedimaster1227]

You know what really attracts guests? Their awards.

 

Wait. So you're telling me that people go to Six Flags New England just because Bizarro (Superman: Ride of Steel) won a golden ticket award? You're saying that people only go to Mythos because it has been rated the "Top Theme Park Restaurant" by Theme Park Insider several years in a row? You're saying that the thousands of guests that flock to California Adventure at opening just to get a fast pass to squeeze into Paradise Park to see World of Color have gone through all of that effort because the show was recognized by THEA?

 

Maybe you don't understand the concept of "general public," but the majority of the guests that come to Six Flags New England to ride Bizarro are there to ride it because it is a roller coaster--not because that coaster has won golden ticket awards. People don't go to Mythos JUST because there is a banner on the door that touts the honor from Theme Park Insider; they go there to eat food in a table service setting, which there are only so many of in that park. People go to all of that effort to see World of Color because it is something that the majority of them have never seen, and it is significant enough in their overall day to go out of their way to secure a spot.

 

The majority of the general public doesn't go to these places with a document listing all of the accolades the parks have won so that they can choose whether or not to bother with this attraction or that restaurant--they go because it appeals to their personal likes and dislikes. Like you said, you rarely ride the rides. Many guests are similar to you in that regard, but the average guest that doesn't like rides isn't going to ride Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey and risk upsetting themselves just because a themed entertainment association they have no affiliation with says it is the greatest ride of the year.

 

For someone who is a "Noeit Al," I find your above statement pretty shocking. I've never seen a single piece of evidence to support your claim that the masses are driven to parks specifically and most significantly because of the awards they win. Enthusiasts are not general public members. Annual passholders are not often general public members. Barring those two categories from the pool, where are these general public members coming from that visit solely on what has received awards?

 

And my final question for you... What do they do at the parks once they've experienced the "award winning" offerings? Do they just leave without giving the non-recognized attractions a shot?

[BG Noeit Al]

Guys, my point wasn't simply just because the awards. You are right people could less about individual rides and shows if they have awards. However, I meant the park in full. If you are in Germany, an amazing and beautiful country, why would you go to BGW? Surely not just because they have 4 roller coasters. You also want to see the world's most beautiful park which is what I was referring to specifically. After all, if someone gave KD the award for best amusement park in the world, a lot more people would flock to KD.

 

Also, rides are a main factor as well as everything else. However, roller coasters are not the only thing. In fact, when you have a new ride and you advertise it like they did, you are going to get tons of guests there solely for that ride. If there was nothing new at all, ride wise, do you think you would have so many people there just to ride roller coasters, no not really. Yes, there are some but not a majority.

 

The general public goes to a place because of advertisement. That is the key right there. If they advertised something in the right way, they could make tons of people come. Verbolten on the other hand, has had very little advertising, which is a bit annoying to me, however you see people do come to check that out, but your not getting tons of people by having a green wall up and some construction. those who visit will be curious but that doesn't bring them to the park. Even the ride itself, it is something new, something different, and it just opened. that is why tons of people will want to ride it. After many, many years, the coaster would end up being like any other one at the park with decent lines.

[Schotcher]

1. The GP doesn't give a flying youknowwhat.

2. The GP doesn't look up parks that they go to to check if they have any awards.

3. People don't know that BGW is "The most beautiful park" until they get on the tram. At that point, they've already decided to go to BGW.

4. No point to advertise Verbolten when:

A. The park is closing in 2 weeks.

B. All the kids are at school in the spring, so the majority of people with kids (A LOT) aren't going to vacation (With the exception of spring break).

[cfc]

The general public goes to a place because of advertisement. That is the key right there. If they advertised something in the right way, they could make tons of people come. Verbolten on the other hand, has had very little advertising, which is a bit annoying to me, however you see people do come to check that out, but your not getting tons of people by having a green wall up and some construction. those who visit will be curious but that doesn't bring them to the park. Even the ride itself, it is something new, something different, and it just opened. that is why tons of people will want to ride it. After many, many years, the coaster would end up being like any other one at the park with decent lines.

 

I am very puzzled by this paragraph. What exactly are they supposed to "advertise" about Verbolten at the moment? "Come to BGW and see our themed construction walls, big green building, and huge piles of dirt (before the dirt goes away forever)"? Well, this might get enthusiasts into the park, anyway. I'm sure Verbolten's advertising campaign will kick into high gear the closer they get to opening the ride. Remember the issues they had with Mach Tower's opening. No one wants to burn themselves twice. For now, they have Christmas Town to promote.

 

Yes, advertising will be necessary to put butts in the seats--this is obvious. The park's campaign for Verbolten will unfold as they've planned it.

[A.J.]

What exactly are they supposed to "advertise" about Verbolten at the moment? "Come to BGW and see our themed construction walls, big green building, and huge piles of dirt (before the dirt goes away forever)"?

They're getting rid of the huge piles of dirt? Those are my favorite parts of the park!

[BeemerBoy]

The general public goes to a place because of advertisement. That is the key right there. If they advertised something in the right way, they could make tons of people come.

BG Noeit Al, just curious, how did you hear about Verbolten?