Matt and Scott's Be All, End All, EPCOT Center Thread

[FLIPDUDE]

Awwww... An Israel pavillion that never came to be? That's a shame! =(

 

Woulda been interesting to travel 12 hours by plane to see an imitation of the place I just flew from XD

[BeemerBoy]

Awwww... An Israel pavillion that never came to be? That's a shame! =(

 

Woulda been interesting to travel 12 hours by plane to see an imitation of the place I just flew from.

 

You still can.

 

 

I like small boys in tights.

 

I doubt the place will offer this though.

[FLIPDUDE]

Rofl... Isn't it about time they took off that filter?

[Montupoopc]

God, I love Epcot. This thread is making me so excited for my upcoming visit. I haven't been to Epcot since August, but I'll be going this coming Tuesday for my boyfriend's 20th birthday! I can't wait. I am hoping the night goes perfect. And this thread has got me looking forward to visiting again.

 

Epcot is my favorite park in the Orlando area. And even with all that, Future World could just as soon not exist, and I'd love the park no less. The fact that it's there is just like a bonus. World Showcase is where it's at for me. I desperately wish they would add a new country (or two, or three...).

[robbalvey]

^ Creepy avatar!!!

 

Rofl... Isn't it about time they took off that filter?

 

HA! No way! Not when it pops up every now and again to give us a good laugh! XD!!!!!

 

--Robb

[Hercules]

I made my very first trip to EPCOT a week ago yesterday, so I find this thread very interesting. In all honesty, out of the 3 Disney parks I visited, I found it to be my least favorite. However, it is a very interesting place, and this thread is very intriguing to me. I had some likes, and some pretty big dislikes, but I'm at least interested in this great history and rumor mill that is being established here.

 

That is really pretty neat how there were rides placed in WS. Does anyone think there is any possibility of any of that coming into fruition in the future? I've been debating back and forth in my head the past few days as to whether that would work out well or not.

 

I also really like that African rendition. That would be nice to see come about in the future, especially considering the small, non-numbered on the map disgrace and embarrassment that Outpost is.

[mcjaco]

I made my very first trip to EPCOT a week ago yesterday, so I find this thread very interesting. In all honesty, out of the 3 Disney parks I visited, I found it to be my least favorite. However, it is a very interesting place, and this thread is very intriguing to me. I had some likes, and some pretty big dislikes, but I'm at least interested in this great history and rumor mill that is being established here.

 

I think that's what captured my imagination when I was younger, the whole park was so different, and intriguing. Even as an eight year old, World Showcase was mesmerizing. I wasn't happy about the lack of rides, but it was just so different. Future World is sadly a shell of it's former self. It's lost it's original intended purpose, but it's coming around again. I believe the steps they've taken in the past couple of years show that.

 

That is really pretty neat how there were rides placed in WS. Does anyone think there is any possibility of any of that coming into fruition in the future? I've been debating back and forth in my head the past few days as to whether that would work out well or not.

 

There's always a rumor about Japan finally getting a coaster, or a rapids ride coming to Canada, but nothing ever seems to come to fruition. Personally, I'd like to see some of the orignal planned pavilions to finally show up.

 

I also really like that African rendition. That would be nice to see come about in the future, especially considering the small, non-numbered on the map disgrace and embarrassment that Outpost is.

 

I'd say the likelihood of an Africa pavilion are slim to none, now that it's so prevelant in Animal Kingdom. But who knows, lots of people equate Future World with Tomorrowland. Some corssover wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

[thrillrider]

How much space does epcot have to sqweeze in a new country?

The only place I can think of is next to germany, or if they remove africa.

[Hercules]

^ Or do you mean the pathetic-ness that is "Outpost"? I don't even think getting rid of Outpost would give enough space to squeeze in a decent nice sized land.

 

^^ Getting back to a few things, Matt. I really think I would like EPCOT a lot more if I had a chance to explore World Showcase a little more.

 

A little side story to explain a little more: We visited EPCOT on Sunday - Saturday we were at Islands of Adventure. While winding down the night, we were in Seuss Landing and Tricia posed to take a picture by a building. At that time, a stray cat ran out of the trees and into a crowd of people. We followed the scared cat, and he turned out to be friendly, not feral. So I picked him up and took him to guest services, asking where the local shelter was as the security office would have just let him out of the back door if we turned him in there. And after many of the employees insisted the local shelter was no kill, we did some quick research on the Blackberry and saw it was not listed as no kill. So we took the cat (who I named Seuss) back to the hotel and kept him overnight, and then we found a rescue organization that was willing to take him, and they were on the other side of Orlando. So I drove a couple hours the next morning, and we didn't get to EPCOT until around 12:30.

 

End long story.

 

So anyway, 12:30 and into the park around 1 to get started. It was a very light day, but it still took until dusk to get the rides section of the park done. Which I have to say, there were bright spots, and a good amount of disappointments. I think my favorite was the first attraction of the day, Spaceship Earth. The rest of the half of the park were some highs and lows. I was fairly disappointed with both Mission Space and Test Track. I liked Nemo (minus the real fish part, which many were clearly malnourished). I liked just about everything else, other than the pointlessness that is Ellen and her Jeopardy dream.

 

The most disturbing thing for me was Living with the Land, which I felt should have been called "Living with Twisted Science and Manipulating the World as We Know it". I kind of felt like I was going through a real life version of the Terminator 2 CyberDyne pre-show. And the most disturbing thing was the fish nursery, with sturgeon the size of me crammed in a small space. And most of the video clips of the farming were totally outdated and not a good representation of the agribusiness that has developed.

 

With that, I don't really think I had enough time to check out what World Showcase has to offer. It was completely dark by the time we got access to that area of the park. At first we were just really looking for something good to eat, and being vegans, it was a little challenging. However, we did end up getting a nice mixed veggie plate with a form of seitan in China, but that took about 45 minutes of wandering through all of the lands and restaurants to find. And we were kind of trying to do it on a bit of a budget, so a sit down place was kind of out of the question. I was still a little hungry, so I got a plate of chips and guacamole in Mexico. We did a little bit of walking around in World Showcase and caught the Chinese acrobatic children, and then Tricia got another plate of chinese (yeah, we eat a lot). At that point we really just wanted to get a decent seat for Illuminations, so we were near The American Adventure (where I got a funnel cake) and staked our claim at a spot. So needless to say, we didn't really do too much investigating in World Showcase. Would I have liked to check it out a little more? Absolutely. I think I would just need to find a good day in which I had a little patience and really check the place out in detail.

 

With that said, I really wasn't too impressed with World Showcase all that much, but of course, like I said, we didn't take a lot of time there.

 

I really enjoyed Illuminations. I mean, how can you complain about that kind of quality fireworks show?

 

I really wanted to like EPCOT more than what I did. I had some pretty high expectations. Seeing that big freakin' ball was so exciting for me. It was the single thing I associated with Disney World with. It is truly a landmark. Just incredible.

 

After experiencing the Magic Kingdom and Hollywood Studios the next 2 days, I pretty much wrote off EPCOT as a park I would go to again. But thinking about it, I think it deserves another visit to really appreciate. My initial reaction is that it might just need a little love as the park kind of has a slight retro 70's-80's feel to it. But I'm sure I will be back to really take it in of course.

 

I think this thread has made me apreciate the park a lot more. Plus, it is so interesting to read all of the posts that both Matt and Scott have made, and also checking out the links Scott shared. EPCOT has definitely turned into one of the most fascinating places in the world to me.

[mcjaco]

How much space does epcot have to sqweeze in a new country?

The only place I can think of is next to germany, or if they remove africa.

 

I believe there are still seven pads available. There's more space then it appears. The trees and foliage have filled in so much it's hard to tell.

 

^ Jay, totally understand your first visit. I think a lot of people feel the same way. Kind of confused about Future World, but they enjoy the rides, and not sure what to make of World Showcase.

 

Spaceship Earth's recent redo is what has any EPCOT fanboy just a little giddy. It's more back to the original roots of the park. It's now one of my favorites there (and trust me, my favorite is cyclical ). The Living Seas, was much better in it's Sea Base Alpha theme, but it was so dead, something had to be done. Insert Nemo. As for Living with the Land, it's been pretty much the same ride since it opened in '82, give or take a few displays. In '82, some of was very futuristic, say like the hydroponics. Nowadays.....not so much. It is neat that everything they grow there (including the fish, etc) go right to the resuarants. So in some ways EPCOT is a bit self sufficient. Granted, the ride shows only a fraction of what they grow.

 

Glad you enjoy the thread, and it has your curiosity piqued. Perhaps one day I'll get to show you around down there.

[RCFreak]

Perhaps one day I'll get to show you around down there.

 

 

*giggle*

[mcjaco]

Poorly worded. But it made Hector giggle.....

[BeemerBoy]

Great post, Jay. Considering how unique the park is, especially as seen by a "first timer," it's really nice to hear WHY you thought what you did about the park.

 

We see so many "Epcot sucks," or "Epcot's pointless," posts, but most have no substance at all. Truthfully, I couldn't care less whether someone likes or hates the place. Just give a logical explanation, that's all. So yeah, we appreciated reading your thoughts.

 

To address your side story, that's awesome what you guys did for "Seuss." There's not many people out there that would go out of their way on their own vacation. And that's for a human, much less a stray cat!

 

 

As for Epcot, I agree with what Matt said, and I'll add couple more things. For starters, I think there's one point that generally goes unnoticed concerning the quality of some peoples' visits - I believe it's still the largest theme park in the world (area wise).

As you suggested, it's a park that demands patience, and a full day, along with a true willingness to explore. With it being in the heart of the theme park capital of the world, I think most people figure it to be a very similar experience to everything that surrounds it in Central Florida. That's just not the case though.

 

I remember a year or two ago, I was in town with only about half a day to spare. Since my brother got me into the parks that day, we decided to hit the MK for a couple hours and then Epcot, just to quench my thirst. One thing I love to do there is to listen to the Voices of Liberty, who perform at the American Pavilion at the extreme farthest point from the front entrance.

 

In rushing to get back there to catch a scheduled performance, it suddenly dawned on me......this place is frickin' HUGE! It's literally impossible to experience everything the park has to offer at a fast pace - especially on a somewhat busy day. To really take it all in, the average parkgoer has to have a different frame of mind when entering for the day. It's meant to be experienced at a leisurely pace.

 

In rushing to cram everything in, many people can be literally exhausted by the time they even start World Showcase. And when you throw in the poor eating habits of many folks out there, combined with the fact that many are visiting with children, it really doesn't help matters. When people aren't comfortable, obviously their experience, and sometimes, overall opinion of the place can suffer. Naturally, that doesn't go for everyone, but I think it really does figure into Epcot as a whole.

 

 

And as for Future World, I still contend that the internet killed the original spirit of the place. That's obviously something that can't be helped, but it was an important factor. Long before the Imagineers' altered vision of Epcot (not Walt's original concept) came to be, Walt himself knew the challenge of theming anything to the future (ala, Tomorrowland).

 

In the time it takes to envision, propose, sign off on, construct, and finally open to the public, a project can already be outdated. It's a permanent uphill battle, especially with that theme.

 

In the early days of Epcot, they could get away with introducing concepts, products, and ideas that had never been seen by the public. These days, it's increasingly more difficult. Add the general "dumbing down" of society, and you're left with a tough dilemma: How do you continue to "edutain" the masses when most will be showing up expecting thrills?

 

Personally, I'm seeing signs of Epcot finding a good balance of keeping with the original spirit, while fulfilling the public's needs/wants, but it will always be a tough task. For instance, I was completely against "Innoventions" when it opened. The idea of a permanent "trade show" irked me. However, for the most part, I've come to appreciate how the space can be used in a "hands on" manner, especially for the younger visitors.

 

Anyway, I'm gonna quit rambling now, but I am curious about this:

 

I liked Nemo (minus the real fish part, which many were clearly malnourished).

 

I've never heard anyone say that before. Of course, most wouldn't be looking that closely for it, but your comment certainly caught my interest.

[jedimaster1227]

^ You are correct. Part of the queue, and the ride building are there. The queue was to be in the area where the counterservice restaurant is. The whole building wasn't finished, but what was, is now used for storage, mostly Food & Wine kiosks.

 

Japan also has a large building being used for storage, that was supposedly to house a ride (I have pictures, but can't seem to find them).

 

From what I understand, the show building was built for the Meet the World (Carousel of Progress-style) show in Japan. The Sherman Brothers composed the music for the Epcot show, but the attraction was never constructed in Walt Disney World.

 

Oddly enough, the show (existing audio and all) was picked up by the Tokyo Disneyland Resort to be placed in Tomorrowland. Unlike the Carousel of Progress, this show featured an inverted configuration with the guests sitting on the inside of the rotating wheel and the show scenes on the outside of the circle, allowing for larger sets but a smaller attraction capacity. It played up until 2002, where the show building sat dormant until it was demolished to make way for the Monsters Inc. Ride and Go Seek! attraction.

[coolhandluke]

I believe there are still seven pads available. There's more space then it appears. The trees and foliage have filled in so much it's hard to tell.

This made me really curious, so I got on Bing maps. And wow, I didn't realize there was quite that much available space left. It also seems like there's still room for some growth in Italy (one could hope...).

 

I've only been to Epcot twice, but I must admit this thread has been fascinating. I love the concept art of what was and what could still be, perhaps?

Including eliminating the Outpost, I can feasibly see 6 pads, I think. It seems like they could do something over by UK and Canada as well, but I've never been to the events pavilion or used that entrance, so I don't know what all would need to be altered/moved over there. (Oh, and I covered up the German and Japanese buildings in the back as part of their pavilion area, even though they're apparently not used as such.)

[mcjaco]

That's some nice work there, Luke. Martin Smith did something similiar over at wdwmagic.com. You really don't know how much space there is until you see it laid out like that.

 

I think the Millenium Celebration building is only partially permanent, and would be an easy removal. We've seen them demolish Horizons, and diamantle the Wand, so nothing is out of the realm of posibilities.

[Hercules]

Jay, totally understand your first visit. I think a lot of people feel the same way. Kind of confused about Future World, but they enjoy the rides, and not sure what to make of World Showcase.

 

Yeah like I said, I think I just need a little bit more time with the park. I really think there is a lot there that I would like. I could spend a long leisurely day at the park and really come to enjoy it. I think at this point, it is just something I don’t “get”. But unlike other parks and rides I don’t necessarily “get”, EPCOT is a place that I think I can grow to really enjoy. I would actually like to spend an entire day in World Showcase and Innoventions to do as much as I can considering I knocked off the rides. Other than Spaceship Earth, I don’t think there are any of the rides again for a while as nothing really overly impressed me. I think it just takes a certain kind of person to appreciate the park, and I think in due time I will be an EPCOT fanboy (minus Living with the Land and The Living Seas).

 

Spaceship Earth's recent redo is what has any EPCOT fanboy just a little giddy.

 

Going over the history of the ride for the past couple of days, I can tell. I know I obviously hadn’t ridden the ride prior to the 2008 reopening, but it looks like a lot went on there. I was very impressed for my first experience.

 

Glad you enjoy the thread, and it has your curiosity piqued. Perhaps one day I'll get to show you around down there.

 

As long as you are definitely talking about EPCOT, I think I would like to take you up on that some day.

 

Great post, Jay. Considering how unique the park is, especially as seen by a "first timer," it's really nice to hear WHY you thought what you did about the park.

 

That is definitely one thing that drives me nuts about this hobby and the other people that do it. I have seen many comments like that about a lot of parks, but mostly about EPCOT. It was great to actually experience the park myself. I guess I can kind of see why people would say stuff like that, but it is always great to actually understand why people think that way. Drives me crazy.

 

To address your side story, that's awesome what you guys did for "Seuss."

 

Thanks. Not to harp too much more on this story, but – when with the cat in Guest Services we were informed that there is a major stray cat problem on the Universal property, which is unfortunate. We were also going to leave the cat with Guest Services, as we were told they would take the cat to the SPCA, but when the manager came from the back, they said they would just let it out the back door again. Another sad thing is one of the Guest Services patrons insisted the SPCA down the road was a no-kill shelter. We looked into it and it most certainly is not. They have a 24-hour outdoor drop box, and in doing rescue work for some time now, I know that any place with a drop box kills 100% of drop offs because they just can’t keep up with the amount of animals (the Universal employee stating it was a no-kill said insisted he had been volunteering there for years which makes it all the more sad that he wouldn’t know this). I don’t expect the park to do anything about the cats on property as I know they have a lot of other things to worry about, and I don’t expect the employees to be knowledgeable on the subject either, so I’m not complaining. I did write a letter to Universal (as well as Disney as apparently there are a good amount of stray cats near EPCOT and the other properties, though I did not see any during the visit) and said my organization would be willing to help with getting the animals off site, with the best interest of the animals in mind. I would hopefully work with Rescues by Judy – the shelter we found to take “Seuss” to on the other side of Orlando.

 

As you suggested, it's a park that demands patience, and a full day, along with a true willingness to explore.

 

Boy did I learn that. To be honest (don’t tell Tricia this) but I think I’ll have to make a trip there all by myself some time. Tricia has no patience and no willingness to explore. She constantly has to be on the move and completely occupied with 100 sensory overloads. I usually the same way, but I think on a relaxing day (kind of like a stroll on a nice golf course) I would be able to take in EPCOT they way it is designed to be appreciated.

 

Add the general "dumbing down" of society, and you're left with a tough dilemma: How do you continue to "edutain" the masses when most will be showing up expecting thrills?

 

That was the hardest thing for me to get through the day. Most of the education throughout the park was basically a refresher of 5th grade. I think that is great for the children, but I was a bit snoozed by much of the pavilions, though a lot of it was good. I just tried to sit back and be entertained. But when so many people took away so little from the attractions that were supposed to be teaching them things, or parents weren’t willing to take some time with their children when the children wanted to do an educational activity, it was very annoying. Aside from that, the misinformation in communication from people was astonishing. Also, (I know I’m really laying into Living with the Land at nauseum) but so many people didn’t really question some of the things that were within the ride – they just sat back and were totally amazed, and others didn’t get anything out of it at all (other than seeing me with a disgusted look on my face for about 50% of the ride) and just insisted the ride was boring and “this entire park is filled with this kind of crap.” And another girl stating “I thought I was on vacation, not back at school.”

 

Anyway, I'm gonna quit rambling now, but I am curious about this:

 

I liked Nemo (minus the real fish part, which many were clearly malnourished).

 

I've never heard anyone say that before. Of course, most wouldn't be looking that closely for it, but your comment certainly caught my interest.

 

First, I do want to say that I was actually a little impressed by the relative size of the tank. However, we did spend about an additional 10-15 minutes checking out the life within it. There was a very interesting mix of fish within the tank, many I thought were well suited for that kind of environment as said species typically don’t travel very far from their coral home. While mentioning coral, that coral in the tank was not real, which I can totally understand as coral take many, many years to grow, and would be a bitch to take care of for fish in captivity. Anyway, with many tropical fish, you can tell a lot from their coloring. Typically when out in “that real world”, tropical fish have vibrant color schemes. The colors on many of the first were very dim and faded, which told us that they clearly were not getting the nutrients and stimulation that they needed. They also seemed to be fairly lethargic, also an indication of boredom. I also noticed a few other fish with physical abnormalities such as half off or missing fins, and disfigured scales. That is a telling sign of not receiving enough nutrients from birth, and a bad family line, which normally only takes place with fish and animals that are not in their natural setting. I can’t imagine how many fish they go through during the course of a year. While there, there were two divers in the tank searching around. One mother said “Look, they are feeding the fish!” to her daughter. Under my breathe to Tricia I said “Or just looking for dead ones”, to which I got a bit of a horrified and nasty glare from the mother – but hey, I can’t help but speak the truth.

 

As a side note on everything, what kind of role did Peter Alexander play in the overall design and construction of EPCOT?

[TheRapidsNerd]

Folks, I can't tell you how much you've taught me in the last few pages. Didn't know half of these concepts existed. Wow!

 

I think what really excited me about Epcot was the high-tech/future possibilities it put across. Things like Space Ship Earth, Horizons, and all the robotics stuff were insanely cool to me. Loved stuff like Expo Robotics and The Bird and The Robot show in World of Motion.

 

It made such an impression during our visits, that I remember leaving Horizons and thinking "I wish I could see 10 years from now and beyond to witness the cool techno stuff that could be." I really really wanted the future to come and was bummed I had to wait. The possiblilities for things like what was in Star Wars or The Jetsons sounded awesome.

 

And years later, we are on that very threshold with several of our current technologies.

 

Seeing this great thread pop up again also re-ignites my Disney excitement, particularly for my move in a few weeks. I'll get to see Epcot Center (yeah yeah I know) yet again, and even though it's not what it once was, it's still a very exciting and inspiring thing.

 

Guys, thanks for putting together this thread. It's tought me so much.

[natatomic]

I want to marry this thread. <3 Epcot <3

 

But...

Spaceship Earth's recent redo is what has any EPCOT fanboy just a little giddy.

 

Not me. I MUCH prefer the previous version to this latest one, minus the first half of the ride. Obviously there were some very nice improvements there, but I feel like they completely gutted the ride from the room right before the observatory onward. Now you just watch a cheesy cartoon while moving through nothing but a black hallway, and really now, I can watch TV at home. I miss the all the lights and fiber optics...tie that all in with the absolutely gorgeous score for the background music (don't even get me started on the lack-luster, indistinct music they've got now) and it was my favorite part of the ride.

 

Just my humble opinion.

[DerekRx]

All this thread does is makes me miss Epcot and want to book a trip back there! I would so love for the other World Showcase pavilions to be built, and more rides added to the counties that didn't get them originally.

 

^I'm kinda, sorta with you on this one. While I do like the new "horizon-esque" finale, I did like the "future" (even if it was already outdated) and the fiber optic swooshes and music from the previous version. I like how the new one keeps your interest and you really don't pay attention to anything else around you other than the TV, but it really seems to cut the cutting edge future out of the ride (plus is really going to be a boring ride back to Earth if your screen ever is broken)

[Movieguy]

I'm so happy to see a thread like this.

 

I don't want to sound like I'm bashing Epcot in it's current form, because I went there in 2005, and enjoyed it just as much as I did as a child in the 80's. Sure, everything was different, but you have to remember, Walt wanted Epcot the city to be an ever-changing world that would never have been complete, and I think the same should go for the park...who knows, someday Epcot may change into a form that both thrillseekers and those fond of old Epcot can really enjoy at the same time. I hope it does.

 

At the same time, there is a nostalgic part of me that misses much of old Epcot. It's a shame that such high concept attractions as Horizions, World of Motion, and the Original Journey Into Imagination were disposed of rather than enhanced in some way, but what's done is done. If all I have now are memories, then so be it.

 

I strongly recommend any big EPCOT fans like me to not only look through the wonderful pictures here, but to also find the Ultimate Tribute documentaries by Martin Smith dedicated to these old attractions. They're wonderfully detailed, and the story is given in text, so you can fully appreciate the background music. They're on many sites, but my personal favorite is mousebits.com

[thrillrider]

I have been hearing some pretty strong rumors that spain may finally find it's way to epcot. Spain would be great, but as far as food goes, it will be a lot like mexico.

 

One thing that was not in the concept art, was the german boat ride that was almost built. The building was built, but the ride was never built. The building is just used for storage. I believe the ride was themed to a rhine river cruise.

[Sir Clinksalot]

First off ... AMAZING thread.

 

I hear a LOT of people who say they don't "get" EPCOT and I don't get it. I got it from the first time I went, and I didn't go to WDW until 2006 so I missed a LOT of former stuff. To say that EPCOT is my favorite theme park ever is a bit of an understatement. Some of my favorite EPCOT days are spent just going around World Showcase, taking in the shows, having some food/drinks, looking in the shops, etc. But to know that you can always go back to Future World to take a spin on Test Track, Mission:Space or Spaceship Earth makes it all the better.

[larrygator]

Spain would be great, but as far as food goes, it will be a lot like mexico.

 

Not true.