More Cedar Fair interested in Six Flags stuff...

[YoshiFan]

It sounds like people that are close to Knott's have the same feeling as the people that are close to Dorney (someone like me)

 

Yeah, I have mixed feelings about what they did to Dorney. I like how they added some new coasters (especially the B&M coasters) but I hate how they removed a lot of the classic rides like those boats that ran in the middle of the park near the Zephyr.

[Nitro X 230]

SFGadv is also in competition with a CF park for they have the worlds tallest coaster. SFGadv has 2 record breakers held over CF for height, speed, and bsteepest drop. Do you see any CF parks beating those records yet, I dont think so so obviously, as said above, SFGadv is also in competition with CF parks

 

I don't get what you are saying... I mean, is GAdv competing with Busch/Universal/Disney just because they got Ka and ET? The rides have nothing to do with it at all.

 

The only CF park that SFGAdv is competing with IN THE SAME MARKET is Dorney, and DP's lines pretty much sum up who's winning that battle

[Hercules]

Right, but they are in competition. Dorney is still just a medium size park anyway. If they got the crowds that Great Adventure got that wouldn't be that great. They are pulling in a profit and that is all that matters. Dorney advertises and pulls people in to a certain extent. They make money and that is all that matters. The place has grown a lot over the course of the Cedar Fair reign. It is a competition between the two, but they are two very different parks in terms of size and what they need to do to make money. However, the fact that they pull from the same markets is what the competition between eachother.

 

By the way, Dorney brought in over 1.5 million guests this year which was a 9% increase from last year. Great Adventure brings in over 5 million a year, but they have a higher capacity (eventhough they don't necessarily handle it that well on the very busy days) This past summer at Dorney the overflow lots were full and they were turning people away from be admitted. That is pretty good for them. It is just during the week that is slow I guess.

 

Now, I know that it is tough sometimes to say that parks are in competition with eachother just because they are pulling from the same markets and demographics (say, something like Lake Compounce and Quassy is a little bit of a stretch in saying something like that considering what each park is and has to offer) but I would say that Dorney and Great Adventure are in competition because they are major parks and very popular in the areas.

[Twister II]

I think that CF buying SFEG is actually likly.

 

I mean the points of buying it:

-Spreading the Cedar Fair Park chain

-Easly atracts guests

-(IMO) on of the better Six Flags parks that is operating

 

The downside of buying it:

-No room for expantion (except if they buy the Pepsi Stadium, or move the park, again)

-Its freezing cold, and seasons are from April to October

 

I guess its hard for me to explain, but I really could see CF buying SFEG.

[Joe21498]

Right, but they are in competition. Dorney is still just a medium size park anyway. If they got the crowds that Great Adventure got that wouldn't be that great. They are pulling in a profit and that is all that matters. Dorney advertises and pulls people in to a certain extent. They make money and that is all that matters. The place has grown a lot over the course of the Cedar Fair reign. It is a competition between the two, but they are two very different parks in terms of size and what they need to do to make money. However, the fact that they pull from the same markets is what the competition between eachother.

 

By the way, Dorney brought in over 1.5 million guests this year which was a 9% increase from last year. Great Adventure brings in over 5 million a year, but they have a higher capacity (eventhough they don't necessarily handle it that well on the very busy days) This past summer at Dorney the overflow lots were full and they were turning people away from be admitted. That is pretty good for them. It is just during the week that is slow I guess.

 

Now, I know that it is tough sometimes to say that parks are in competition with eachother just because they are pulling from the same markets and demographics (say, something like Lake Compounce and Quassy is a little bit of a stretch in saying something like that considering what each park is and has to offer) but I would say that Dorney and Great Adventure are in competition because they are major parks and very popular in the areas.

 

Great Adventure didn't bring in 5 million guests this year, that would be twice the total they had in 2004 according to this site. http://www.coastergrotto.com/theme-park-attendance.jsp It says they ony had 2.8 million guests in 2004. Dorney had 1.4 million. Considering the size difference between to the two parks I think it is easy to see that Dorney is operating in a more profitable manner.

[ParkTrips]

I'm not sure its quite 5 million but 4+ is reasonable once you factor in the waterpark and wildlife park, which are seperate admissions (and not included in that figure )

[Nitro X 230]

I'm not saying that Dorney is bad or it isn't profitable, but SFGAdv is a bigger attraction than Dorney is. If I were to tell people on Long Island I were going to Six Flags, they would say "O MAN COOL!!!" but if I said Dorney, they would just be like "Where's Dorney Park?"

[DonkeyBreath]

I just amazed at how many experts we have here on TRP

[rollocoast]

^^^

 

Um... No? Great Adventure doesn't draw those kind of numbers.

 

As for Dorney being in competition with Great Adventure... It really isn't. They're target audience is completely diffrent. It's like saying Great Adventure is in competition with Wildwood or Seaside which is absolutely rediculous.

[MF310ryb]

^ I agree SFGADV really does not have any local competition I also cant see them pulling 5 mill a year maybe a couple mill a year if that. They are the companies highest revenue park and was listed in the top 20 most attended parks in the U.S. only SF park to be in that list. Its geographic location would be great for Cedar Fair. Plus the park is not fully developed they have a lot more land to use so it could be the Cedar Point on the East Coast. Lots of room for hotels more rides restaurants or whatever. I think GADV is a good buy for anyone looking to purchase a park or the company. I am not saying this cause its my home park its just Obvious. The only down side about the park is the park is a GIANT Wetland. So the ground would have to be reinforced and with the NJ laws protecting Wetlands it maybe hard to get building approval.

Edited November 4, 2005 by MF310ryb

[Gnome]

parks they will probably buy

 

sfmw

Why would they buy an animal park with a couple of rides in the front? CF is strictly amusement park, not animal park.

Also, I don't think SF will get rid of thier more profitable parks, IE SFMM, SFMW, SGADv, and SFOT, and maybe SFOG as they seem to have turned themselves around this past season, and they still have a fighting chance. Just might take a little work, and a lot of time.

[ParkTrips]

^ They did buy Geagua

 

Um... No? Great Adventure doesn't draw those kind of numbers.

 

I don't know, the park most likely drew about 3 million this year and maybe its just me but the combined attendance of the waterpark and safari being a million is reasonable to me. Yea 5 mil does seem pretty outrageous.

 

Dorney's not in competition with the park? What about the large chunk of patrons who come from metro Philly? Six Flags actually cites Dorney (along with Hershey) as the park's main competition.

 

I just amazed at how many experts we have here on TRP

The only thing I'm an expert at is quoting family guy

[Angry_Gumball]

CF should take over SFAW.

[Joe21498]

I would have to agree with the people that say Dorney doesn't market to the same people as SFGadv. When you go to Dorney it can be packed in the parking lot but when you get in the park nobody is riding the coasters. The longest lines you find are for the Wild Mouse coaster and the other smaller coasters and flat rides. This is because Dorney markets towards families.

 

When you go to SFGadv all you seem to see is large groups of teens that for the most park came in on bus trips or in large groups. You don't see very many families at all. The park doesn't seem to offer much for families.

 

Dorney markets better to families because they include there waterpark with entry to the regular park. Just look how large of an impact such a decision can have on park attendance. SFGA did that this year and set record numbers for attendance.

 

Basically what i'm saying is comparing Dorney and SFGadv to eachother is like comparing apples to oranges, they just aren't the same. In my opinion they don't have any real competition between the two parks. I would be curious to see if there advertising radius' even overlap eachother.

 

Can a local answer this question; Do you see both Dorney and SFGadv commercials if you live in a netural location between the two parks? Or do you see Dorney commercials in NJ and SFGadv commercials in Allentown?

[HCOSurfer90]

^Well then, what do you call Balin's Jungleland, Looneytoon Seaport, anad the new Bugs Bunny national park. SFGadv also has tons of family rides like Blackbeard's Lost Treasure Train, Jolly Rodger, and Skull Mountain. If those things arent family rides then I dont know what is.

[ChemicalWhore]

I honestly don't think the FTC would let CF purchase all of SF because it comes pretty close to having a monopoly in the theme park industry.

 

Basicly it seems like the major companies in the usa would be SF, CF and Disney of course.

 

I could be wrong but just something to consider.

[Nitro X 230]

Can a local answer this question; Do you see both Dorney and SFGadv commercials if you live in a netural location between the two parks? Or do you see Dorney commercials in NJ and SFGadv commercials in Allentown?

 

Actually, I live 2.5 hours from both parks (on Long Island) and this season have season commercials for both Dorney (Hydra commercials) and GAdv (KK/Golden Kingdom commercials)

 

Not to mention the Darkastle ones.....

 

^Well then, what do you call Balin's Jungleland, Looneytoon Seaport, anad the new Bugs Bunny national park. SFGadv also has tons of family rides like Blackbeard's Lost Treasure Train, Jolly Rodger, and Skull Mountain. If those things arent family rides then I dont know what is.

 

Until last year, our collection of things for family was trash. Those rides you mentioned never (except SM) have(had) lines. People really didn't seem to view those rides as "family"

 

GAdv has added many childrens ride (05' and 06') and are trying to start marketing towards families, but their main market is still teens and people who ride the big coasters. There is a reason why the big coasters at Dorney never have lines, but WWK and rides like the Wild Mouse do. Those who want thrills tend to go to GAdv.

 

Nonetheless, SIX FLAGS GREAT ADVENTURE IS IN COMPETITION WITH DORNEY PARK. Otherwise, Dorney wouldn't be running commercials in NYC and LI against SFGAdv commercials

Edited November 4, 2005 by Nitro X 230

[FlyingScooter]

Call me nuts, but i really wish CF would buy Conneaut Lake. One park, 2 mil in debt vs. 1 chain at 2 bil. just the CF name alone could help CLP.

Yeah, I know I'm dreaming, but as Blondie said in her wisdon:

Dreamin' is Free....

[Hercules]

^ Trust me, you don't want them to come in an ruin tradition.

 

I live 5 minutes from Allentown in Center Valley and I see more Great Adventure commercials. Back when Hydra was being heavily promoted in the first half of the season I saw more Dorney, but overall the Dorney commercials faded off and there were more Great Adventure commercials. Even when Kingda Ka was down the generic ads were airing. We also get the BGW here. The are some BGT during late night too. My school actually has VIP 10 dollar off passes to Great Adventure too. I see all of these commercials at my home in NEPA too (over 3 hours from Great Adventure, hour and a half from Dorney)

[GAcoaster]

As someone who lives as close to the middle of New Jersey as you can get, I can tell you Dorney and GAdv are in stiff competition.

 

The area I live in gets both New York and Philadelphia channels on our cable system, and every year there are Dorney and GA commercials on both. And Dorney runs about twice as many commercials.

 

One year, Dorney even ran a commercial that bashed GA, showing a woman in a skin tight black body suit with a whip with explosions and fighting around her, and the tagline was something like "Not your idea of FAMILY entertainment? Come to Dorney park instead."

 

Dorney is actually closer to New York City than GA is, and they fight hard over the same pool of guests. I've heard from several Dorney locals that they've stopped getting season passes and going because the crowds from NYC coming in are getting really bad. I wouldn't be surprised to see them add metal detectors within a year or two (after the first stabbing or shooting).

[Hercules]

Great points there. I too get the New York and Philly channels both at school and my hometown.

 

The New York City and Philly thing is getting kind of out of control, yes, but I don't mind it. I'm not big on that kind of thing. However, it does just go to show the evolution from where Dorney used to be and where it is after the Cedar Fair takeover. But anyway, it is funny that you brought up a shooting or something. Back in the day (I think I was about 9, which means that it was the year that Cedar Fair had just taken over the park) there was a noticable amount of city guests at the park from the previous years. There was actually a pretty large gang fight in the parking lot after the park closed. I don't think there were any injuries or anything and I don't think it was anything that was newsworthy, but it was a big change from what we were used to at the park (when it was just locals and the now employee parking lot was the entrance)

 

One thing that people need to remember (or at least I think is important, but I'm no expert ) parks, or businesses for that matter, don't have to be the same to be in competition. These are very similar, actually, considering they are pulling from the same areas and happen to big bigger amusement parks. They just go about it in different ways like some have said with one going more for the thrills and the other bringing in more families. They have just taken their targets and have their own niche and focus. They are in the entertainment industry. A bowling alley is in competition with an arcade and the movies just as much as they are with another bowling alley. It doesn't matter how different they are, they still provide entertainment. These places are even more like eachother than you think, which makes them in competition plus the points that have been made about location and other things.

[maeryk]

I honestly don't think the FTC would let CF purchase all of SF because it comes pretty close to having a monopoly in the theme park industry

 

IANAL, but I don't believe "monopoly" laws work that way. It's different if all the gas stations, or newspapers, are owned by the same person. That is something "necessary". But Amusement parks? I don't think there would be much of an issue even if CF was the ONLY owner of all parks.. they still have to price to get people in the door, and still have to get rides people want to ride.

 

Aside from management differences, is there really that noticeable a difference between the parks? I see a lot of rides tht look the same, doing the same thing, with a few noteable exceptions, but aside from the Disney parks, they pretty much all look the same to me.

 

Maeryk

[Joe21498]

Thanks for answering all the questions about commercials everyone.

 

I live in Southfield Mi, which is close to Detroit. We only get Cedar Point Commercials eventhough Michigan's Adventure is only a bit furter than Cedar Point CF doesn't bother to advertise it in the Detroit metro area. They must just figure that people from Detroit will only go to CP. I have never seen a GL commercial either.

 

Sounds like competition is stiff out in NJ and Allentown. I remember when I went on a trip to LA that CF advertised the crap out of Knotts and I never saw one commercial for SFMM eventhough they are only like one hour apart. Also you never saw any Disney commercials but they basically don't need to advertise at this point to do well.

 

I remember staying in Anahiem for a few days while in CA. We were had a hotel room that overlooked Disneyland and California's Adventure. That place was packed everyday to the brim.

 

At this point in my life theme park advertising has no effect weather I visit a park or not. For the general public it does though. I love the Dorney Commercial with the fighting one of you talked about, they should still run that commercial.

[coasterguy618]

I definatley could not see them buying SFGADv, SFMM, SFGAm, or SFOG. ine thing that I really could see Cedar Fair doing is buying SFFT. I think it looks like a Cedar Fair. I also think it would be a great addition to Cedar Fair.

 

--Gaven

[timetrial3141592]

IMO, Cedar Fair will buy SFNE. Bear with me. It is pretty far from their other holdings, it has a good attendance, and it has SROS. SFNE also is in competition with Canobie Lake, and umm..... nothing else. It is essentially the only major park in New England. Plus the SLC isn't all that bad. Cedar Fair would get a good profit out of SFNE.