Why Cedar Fair?

[the ghost]

I have heard of a lot of cool parks going down. HRP(not great but better than CF) Certain Six Flags Parks, even Busch maybe. But I have not heard anything about cedar fair taking any bullets. Even the GP doesn't like them, they have a terrible season pass system, customer service, rough rides (cough Ghostrider cough) and honestly are taking charm away from parks, so why aren't they shutting down? Its pretty sad when SFMM is the park with the third amount of charm after the DLR resort parks( yes including DCA.)

 

Does anyone know the reason why they are not in trouble because the only company I believe will always be fine is Disney, because if Disney goes down the theme park industry dies.

[Top Thrill Dragster]

1. Smart Marketing (they market not only the thrill rides but family rides.)

2. Low gate price

3. They know how to balance a park out.

4. Good customer Service (IMO)

5. Good park upkeep.

6. They didn't add roller coaster after roller coaster into their parks, and nothing else for years like Six Flags did.

7. All the parks that they have are making money for the company.

8. "Six Flags" is a damaged name brand. (Most of my non enthusist friends and family associate "Six Flags" with a ghetto park, infested with gangs)

 

 

Even the GP doesn't like them

 

I disagree, enthusiasts don't like Cedar Fair, not the GP.

 

Its pretty sad when SFMM is the park with the third amount of charm after the DLR resort parks( yes including DCA.)

 

I wish SFMM had a third of the quality, and charm of a Disney park.

[Purplepills]

Even the GP doesn't like them.

 

If the GP didn't like them, people wouldn't go and they would have all shut down by now.

 

I was also wondering how Disney going would cause the theme park industry to die? Disney has no presence in the UK yet the industry is doing fine here. I also agree though I don't see Disney closing in the forseeable future. Disney is also not just a business based on theme parks but countless other mechandising which helps bring in money, I have read DLRP runs at an overall loss but I couldnt find any stats to back that up.

[ginzo]

3. They know how to balance a park out.

 

Is this a joke? What does CF do besides add coasters to their parks? Doesn't sound like balance to me when all they do is rip out stuff to put in more coasters. Oh, you must be talking about the cornhole game they installed at Geauga Lake.

 

[Top Thrill Dragster]

^ Lets see.

 

Rip Tide (Valley Fair and Knotts Berry Farm)

Revolution ( Dorny Park and Knotts Berry Farm)

Screamin Swings (Knotts Berry Farm, Cedar Point, and Valley Fair)

Americana Ferris Wheel (Kings Dominion)

El Dorado (Kings Dominion)

Supreme Scream ( Knotts Berry Farm)

Lucys Tugboat ( Knotts Berry Farm)

Planet Snoopy (Cedar Point)

Perilous Plunge (Knotts Berry Farm)

Max Air ( Cedar Point)

Sky Scraper ( Cedar Point)

Snoopys Great Skate (Knotts Berry Farm)

Grand Rapids (Michigan's Adventure)

Fire Fall (California Great America)

Camp Snoopy (for most of the Cedar Fair parks)

Southern Star (Carowinds)

Yo Yo (Carowinds)

 

I know there are other attractions I am missing.

[OFortuna]

I have heard of a lot of cool parks going down. HRP(not great but better than CF) Certain Six Flags Parks, even Busch maybe. But I have not heard anything about cedar fair taking any bullets. Even the GP doesn't like them, they have a terrible season pass system, customer service, rough rides (cough Ghostrider cough) and honestly are taking charm away from parks, so why aren't they shutting down? Its pretty sad when SFMM is the park with the third amount of charm after the DLR resort parks( yes including DCA.)

 

The modern Cedar Fair built their share of the market over the course of 25 years. Regardless of what coaster enthusiasts think, they have positive cash flow, which is something Six Flags essentially never had after being sold to a bunch of real estate developers. In fact, if you think about it, Six Flags was run like the real estate industry in the last 10 years: seemingly endless amounts of development funded with tons of poorly concieved loans that are ultimately backed by even more loans to try and get the first few waves of development to keep stable.

 

Cedar Fair, on the other hand, didn't generally believe the idea that the industry had entered a new world where every attraction could be paid for from new visitors in a single season and spaced new attractions out. They're still here. The majority of the chain Six Flags bought or built between 1996-2000 isn't gonna be under their banner.

[jamesdillaman]

I'm just confused as to how you can say HRP was better than a CF park... Granted I've never been there but from TR's I've read here, that just wasn't the case.

 

-James Dillaman

[ginzo]

^ Lets see.

 

Rip Tide (Valley Fair and Knotts Berry Farm)

Revolution ( Dorny Park and Knotts Berry Farm)

Screamin Swings (Knotts Berry Farm, Cedar Point, and Valley Fair)

Americana Ferris Wheel (Kings Dominion)

El Dorado (Kings Dominion)

Supreme Scream ( Knotts Berry Farm)

Lucys Tugboat ( Knotts Berry Farm)

Planet Snoopy (Cedar Point)

Perilous Plunge (Knotts Berry Farm)

Max Air ( Cedar Point)

Sky Scraper ( Cedar Point)

Snoopys Great Skate (Knotts Berry Farm)

Grand Rapids (Michigan's Adventure)

Fire Fall (California Great America)

Camp Snoopy (for most of the Cedar Fair parks)

Southern Star (Carowinds)

Yo Yo (Carowinds)

 

I know there are other attractions I am missing.

 

Lucy's tug boat? That seems like a reach. Most of CF's recent adds have been big coasters and "balanced" isn't really a good way to describe most of their parks.

 

Unless we're talking about two completely different things, I suppose. When I think of a balanced park, I think of parks like BGE, Dollywood, Europa, etc. Parks that combine good rides, aesthetics, decent food, and a reasonable amount of non-thrill ride things to do. CF flat out fails in all of these categories, except rides.

[John Peck]

If Cedar Fair was a poorly run business, they wouldn't have both attendance and per cap spending up (granted, they have raised their prices) The fact that the inverstors recieve their cuts is a good sign, too.

 

I see nothing majorly wrong with Cedar Fair right now, compared to the rest of the industry. It's rare to find a major coaster down for the entire day at CP.. You can usually find at least one at Six Flags although they are doing better.

 

Using an Excellent, Good, Fair and Poor rating scale on Cedar Fair:

 

Ride uptime: Excellent (They have a 95% uptime on their rides at CP)

Ride maintainence: Excellent

Attraction Diversity/Variety: Excellent

 

Food Taste: Good

Food Variety: Fair

Average Park Beauty/Atmosphere: Good

Safety: Excellent

 

Shows: Good

In-Park Prices: Fair

Events/Festivals: Excellent

Cleanliness: Excellent

 

Customer Service: Good

Employee Attitudes/Professionalism: Good

Employee Training: Excellent

[Top Thrill Dragster]

^^ And most recent big coaster additions have been to the former Paramount parks, which were lacking in the coaster department.

[niiicolaaah]

I'm just confused as to how you can say HRP was better than a CF park... Granted I've never been there but from TR's I've read here, that just wasn't the case.

 

-James Dillaman

 

Yep... I have been to 5 Cedar Fair parks and I would much rather visit ANY of them than HRP. HRP had a lot of "charm" but next to nothing to do.

 

Cedar Fair is obviously doing SOMETHING right. Maybe they are smarter with their money, take more calculated risks like buying the Paramount parks versus HRP where they had no idea what they were doing in the first place and wasted SO much money getting the park started.

 

Or maybe there is some magic we're not aware of in the trash cans.

[ginzo]

If Cedar Fair was a poorly run business, they wouldn't have both attendance and per cap spending up (granted, they have raised their prices) The fact that the inverstors recieve their cuts is a good sign, too.

 

I agree that CF is a a well run business. But just because you run your business well does not necessarily mean that your product is great.

 

Microsoft is one of the best corporate success stories in history. They've made profits margins that would make any of these theme park CEOs cry. And they manage their wealth with absolute efficiency. But they built this enterprise on software that was very crappy at times and often released long before it was ready for market.

[coasterfreaky]

There is no simple, single answer as to why one chain is better/more successful than the other. CF has historically had a fairly conservative business plan when it comes to new additions, as has Herschend and many of the smaller parks like Kennywood and others that have great charm and uniqueness. As opposed to Six Flags which went on a rampage in the 90's buying up small parks and adding huge coasters to all of its parks - that type of development is too fast. It takes time to get see a return on the investments that are put in. And that same style may be what put the nail in Hard Rocks' coffin - too much, too soon.

 

Regardless of your personal opinion about CF, they're very successful, families love them, coaster enthusiasts love them, and they are paying dividends on their stocks.

 

Dollywood is a pretty old park, it's been around since 1961 when the only attraction was the train. Just in the past 6-7 years they have become more of a contender with the bigger parks like Cedar Fair. Dollywood has almost as many annual visitors as Cedar Point, so it just goes to show, in my opinion at least, that the formula for success is slow and steady, not too much, too soon. The turtle always wins the race! One really smart thing that Herschend did was to sell Dolly Parton her stake in the park. In 1986 when Silver Dollar City-Tennessee became Dollywood, attendance jumped from around 250k people, to over 2 million people!!

 

Disney is practically a whole other story in itself. It is such a diverse company that we will never see it's demise. Parks are just a small slice of the pie chart for Disney. Probably not even in my great great great grandchildrens lifetimes will we ever see it go down.

[Jive]

It sounds as if not spending money on mystery charm equals not closing your doors.

[BeemerBoy]

Why does this thread title currently not have a question mark?

 

On topic, you're basically wondering why HRP is a failure, and why CF parks aren't, right? (At least that was your first comparison) Again, no matter how anyone wants to slice it, HRP was built in the WRONG LOCATION, period. Building a poorly planned $400 million park in Myrtle Beach that completely misses the demographics is like building a Ferrari dealership in a community of trailer parks. HRP is in a category all its own. Comparing CF, SF, and even Busch parks shouldn't include discussion of HRP.

 

Cedar Fair parks, regardless of whether you're a fan of their ride offerings or not, are located in areas that will still draw crowds from their surrounding areas. Even in the toughest economic times, the need for amusement thrills still exists. The bottom line may fluctuate from year to year, but they will usually still draw enough locals to keep their head above water until it's time to expand. Let's face it, HRP was great in theory, but nobody *really* cares if it's still there next year or not.

 

People travel to Myrtle Beach for golf, and.....wait for it......the beach.

[John Peck]

I agree that CF is a a well run business. But just because you run your business well does not necessarily mean that your product is great.

 

Yes it does. If you offer a lousy product or service, then people arent going to come and purchase that. Cedar Fair obviously has a product of quality where people will continue to attend their parks.

 

Look at the US Automotive industry, even though many of our cars have improved Many americans are burned on the sub par cars of the 70's and 80's and still won't buy a domestic make.

 

You can't compare Microsoft to Cedar Fair, thats a whole different animal.

[DenDen]

There is no simple, single answer as to why one chain is better/more successful than the other.

 

Garbage cans are cheaper than trees

[cfc]

I agree that CF is a a well run business. But just because you run your business well does not necessarily mean that your product is great.

 

Yes it does. If you offer a lousy product or service, then people arent going to come and purchase that. Cedar Fair obviously has a product of quality where people will continue to attend their parks.

 

Look at the US Automotive industry, even though many of our cars have improved Many americans are burned on the sub par cars of the 70's and 80's and still won't buy a domestic make.

 

You can't compare Microsoft to Cedar Fair, thats a whole different animal.

Yet you can compare CF to the U.S. automotive industry? I think I see your point re. Microsoft; the Windows operating system is something that the majority of businesses and households need, whether they like it or not, whereas no one has to go to a theme park.

 

Is that what you're getting at?

[OFortuna]

Cars in the US are every bit the necessity Windows is, and neither is comparable in their market to amusement parks. However, the greater point about having a lousy service dooming you is a truism that goes essentially without saying. Whether or not you believe CF offers lots of well run but ultimately souless collections of thrill rides is sorta meaningless if it turns out that the public actually likes well run but ultimately soulless collections of thrill rides. Free market and all that. And that is why SFMM is constantly the subject of potential sale rumors and the most negative thing most people can say business wise about Cedar Point is that the .25 cotton candy wasn't the draw they hoped (but they still were in the black).

[coasterfreaky]

These analogies are making this discussion way more complicated than it needs to be...and it's already complicated comparing several brands of amusement parks. KISS!

[FeelTheFORCE]

Even the GP doesn't like them

 

I disagree, enthusiasts don't like Cedar Fair, not the GP.

 

I have to agree with you Top Thrill. I go to a college about 40 miles north of Pittsburgh, and if someone even slightly mentions or hints at the subject of amusement parks, roller coasters, etc., people freak out saying how great Cedar Point is and that everyone HAS to go there.

[lil jimmy norton]

I'm very confused.

[robbalvey]

Why does this thread title currently not have a question mark?

Because the topic title and the initial post was about as high quality as your average Cedar Fair park.

 

I also disagree that CF parks are "well balanced." Outside of the Camp Snoopy areas there is almost NOTHING for a kid under 48" inches to do.

 

And when they have taken perfectly good, proven 42" family rides, like Jaguar, and raise the height restriction to 48", something is wrong.

 

--Robb

[ragerunner]

I think this discussion is a little early. When CF bought the Paramount Parks they took out a much larger loan than what they needed for the new parks. They did this so that they could have some operational money, as well as money to pay dividends over the next several years. I think you need to wait and see how they do once that barrowed cash disappears and they have to restructure their debt.

 

Six Flags and some other companies didn't have this extra cash over the last few years to play with.

 

One thing CF has done 'well' is reusing rides (mostly from Geuaga Lake)

 

As a side note: I don't consider CF parks well rounded at all. Most of their parks are not kid/family friend. For all the reasons already posted above. I also don't consider adding a small kiddy ride or a sub par show a balancing act with coasters. Build some great family water rides or dark rides (CF seems very frighten of these) and then we can talk about balance.

[OFortuna]

I think this discussion is a little early. When CF bought the Paramount Parks they took out a much larger loan than what they needed for the new parks. They did this so that they could have some operational money, as well as money to pay dividends over the next several years. I think you need to wait and see how they do once that barrowed cash disappears and they have to restructure their debt.

 

Six Flags and some other companies didn't have this extra cash over the last few years to play with.

 

Six Flags didn't have the extra cash to play with because they used virtually all the credit that was available to them (a couple billion dollars). The subsequent selling of some 20+ parks is a direct result of their need for liquidity when they could no longer rely on banks for loans. The big advantage for CF is that the Paramount properties, you know, made money to start with, unlike a laundry list of the Premier/SF acquisitions.