Queue-jumping for dollars

[shepp]

I've been discussing HHN Express Passes with Elissa while I've been researching Q-Bots, and that brings up an issue. We live in a society where money talks, and those without it just have to bite the bullet. And there's increasingly a "fastpass for money" system that is, essentially, institutionalized bribery. You pay the boss, and the ride ops look the other way while you ignore the rules everyone else has to follow.

 

The whole caste system in which people with money to burn get to, basically, jump the queue is just a little nasty. (And, no, I'm not criticizing anyone here for actually doing so...)

 

The free express systems, like at CP, WDW, and Uni, reward early arrival and planning ahead. And offering early openings to people who stay on property, or ERT to season passholders seem like reasonable "incentives." But IMO, there's a difference between standard Q-Bot, where you pay in order not to be inconvenienced, and gold Q-Bot, in which you pay more and get to inconvenience someone else.

 

And SFGAdv not only offers Q-Bots but a "self-guided tour," where someone can spend an extra hundred bucks and enter through exit ramps, thereby making some poor schnook who's been broiling in the sun for three hours wait for another train. (And for another 50 per person, you actually get a guide who, I guess, holds your backpack while you're riding...)

 

We're now seeing carpool lanes, originally meant to encourage energy conservation, being opened to anyone able and willing to pay a fee, so at rush hour some solitary oilhog in a Lincoln Navigator gets to whiz past a working stiff in his old gas-miser compact. How's about the airports charge an extra twenty-five bucks to skip the pre-boarding inspection line and just head straight for the metal detectors?

 

Yeah, yeah, I know...anyone looking to Six Flags for examples of social justice is up for severe disappointment...

[FlyingScooter]

^Very well said!

I'm against the Extra charge q-bot stuff. I pay to get into a park and that should be that/ I don't mind waiting in line, but to pay extra and jump to head of the line just seems wrong.

[Thuur]

Very well said indeed!

I'm also against this "pay for queue jumping".

 

When we were at the Port Aventura European fanday last year, we got VIP passes which is a sort of payed fastpass and avaible for everyone who stays in the hotel. I think this system is the edge because it's avaible for a lot more people then only "the rich".

[CoasterFanatic]

While a lot of people defend Virtual Queueing, it works to frustrate people even more than the lines do. Especially where the "more you pay" thing is available.

 

I wrote a little piece close to 5 years ago and it still holds (sorta) true today:

http://www.coasterfanatics.com/sec_features/feature_virtualqueing.asp

[Not For Sale]

The point of the free "Fastpass" type systems are to make money in stores and restaurants while people wait for their time to ride. When places like Six Flags, they don't really have much to sell at stores, and they already make a killing in the restaurants. So their way of getting in on the action is charging for their service, making as much (if not more) than Disney and Universal with the Q-Bot system. Q-Bots get people in and out of the park fast. Of course Six Flags is making money and taking advantage of us, but Disney and Universal are no better!

[Token Yankee Guy]

And SFGAdv not only offers Q-Bots but a "self-guided tour," where someone can spend an extra hundred bucks and enter through exit ramps, thereby making some poor schnook who's been broiling in the sun for three hours wait for another train.

 

First off I'd like to state that that was a very good post and I'd also like to mention I respect your opinion. But actually, I've been to SFGAdv and If I recall, most of the Fastlane entrances meet up at a point close to the station the regular queue goes through.

 

For example, for Superman: Ride of Steel at SFNE. The entrance to the station before boarding the train has a set of stairs. On the left is the stairs of the regular line, and on the right is the Q-Bot line. They both meet right before entering the station.

 

I know that some rides let the riders go through the exit, we have one ride at SFNE that does that and thats Thunderbolt, But. they have like one car reserved just for Q-Botters.

 

I admit I use the Q-Bot Gold system (and I don't want anyone lashing out at me for that please) but I use it for a convience to myself since I'd like to get a fair amount of rides in during the day and make it a fullfilling experience. Even my Dad agrees with me how useful the Gold Q-Bot system was.

 

One day my Dad and I went to SFNE and I told him that it's best to get to the park about an hour early so we can get in early and get a Q-Bot Gold, and we did. That was 10:00. By noon when we headed to the car to eat lunch, the line for Q-Bot Registration was almost at the lockers right after the gate and the park was pretty packed.

 

Just stating from my experiences I never had a problem with Q-Bot and when I didn't have one I didn't mind.

[kenshinmac]

Um anyone know what happened with the class action lawsuit against six flags over the Q-bot?

 

I honestly don't really feel a whole lot of animosity towards the normal fastpass type system mainly because it is open to everyone. The Q-bot is a bit of a different situation. I honestly feel that if they treated it like a singles line I would be ok but seeing someone just walk up with one of those things after you were waiting for an hour or more kinda rubs you the wrong way. Especially if they happen to hop in the seat you were waiting for...

[shepp]

And SFGAdv not only offers Q-Bots but a "self-guided tour," where someone can spend an extra hundred bucks and enter through exit ramps, thereby making some poor schnook who's been broiling in the sun for three hours wait for another train.

 

First off I'd like to state that that was a very good post and I'd also like to mention I respect your opinion. But actually, I've been to SFGAdv and If I recall, most of the Fastlane entrances meet up at a point close to the station the regular queue goes through.

 

For example, for Superman: Ride of Steel at SFNE. The entrance to the station before boarding the train has a set of stairs. On the left is the stairs of the regular line, and on the right is the Q-Bot line. They both meet right before entering the station.

 

I know that some rides let the riders go through the exit, we have one ride at SFNE that does that and thats Thunderbolt, But. they have like one car reserved just for Q-Botters.

 

Yeah, well, once again...

 

As I understand it, standard Q-Bot gets you to the join-up point in a true "virtual queuing" way - it's as if you were standing in line all that time, except you weren't. Anyone who got to the ride before you originally did gets to ride before you, anyone who got there later rides after you, right? When I was in India, it was common practice for tourists to hire boys to queue up for them at train reservation windows. Same principle, really. Q-Bot gold, though enables you to ride before people who got there earlier. That seems considerably more unfair. (Not that I wouldn't ever do it...)

 

It's the SFGAdv "VIP Tour" nonsense that really stinks. For twice the basic admission, you buy walk-on privileges to, I assume, any and all rides. (The site says tours last "about 4 hours," but that's with the "guide" who, I assume, says things like "Over there is where you can buy funnel cakes." I have no idea if the "self-guided" option lasts 4 hours or all day.) That means big-spenders wanting multiple re-rides can conceivably stall a line of both Q-Botters and civilians indefinitely. That makes it a four-tier caste system. Perhaps the program has some fairness factors built in; I have no idea. But the idea that SF would take a train out of use to the GP and reserve it strictly for those who pay a premium seems to make thing less fair, not more.

 

I used Cedar Point's system, which seemed pretty fair because it was free and very limited. Only 4 reservations a day, and only one of each ride. However, the effect was that of Q-Bot gold or WDW FastPass: People who planned ahead postponed everyone else's rides.

 

I've been at SFMW (where the limited-number-of-rides FastLane option is really a rip-off) where they were hyping FastLane while running only one train on a jammed-up Roar. Made me wonder if that was a win-win for them. They saved money on operations while encouraging riders to spend up. Neat.

[SharkTums]

I guess this is my point...

 

People pay for better service in everything!

 

First Class Airline Seats vs. Coach

Hyatt vs. Motel 6

Luxary Car vs. Geo Metro

 

What is the difference in doing it at a theme park!?! We all choose how to spend our money, and what's most important.

 

Robb and I fly coach, stay at the motel 6's, rent the geo metros, but then pay the extra money to skip the line.

 

I don't see how that's different from every other 'caste' system already in place.

 

Again, I respect everyone's opinion, just throwing out my own!

 

Elissa "all about qbot!" Alvey

[Token Yankee Guy]

It's the SFGAdv "VIP Tour" nonsense that really stinks. For twice the basic admission, you buy walk-on privileges to, I assume, any and all rides.

Ohhh ok, I didn't know SFGAdv had a "VIP Tour." Yeah I can understand where you're coming from when it comes to the VIP Tour. Thats going far beyond Q-Bot Gold and I think Q-Bot Gold is good enough and there shouldn't be a higher privliage above that. Of course I'm not counting Exit Passes I know some parks give out of courtesy to the patrons if something happens or they had a really bad day.

[shepp]

I guess this is my point...

 

People pay for better service in everything!

 

First Class Airline Seats vs. Coach

Hyatt vs. Motel 6

Luxary Car vs. Geo Metro

 

What is the difference in doing it at a theme park!?! We all choose how to spend our money, and what's most important.

 

Elissa "all about qbot!" Alvey

 

Well, sorta. Sorta not.

 

Let's use the airline analogy. First class passengers and elite frequent fliers get to board planes first. I used to be a Continental gold flier, and yes, I enjoyed being able to walk down an uncrowded aisle while there was still plenty of luggage space. But now that I'm back in coach, I have to wait extra minutes to board, not an hour or two. And the flight attendants don't say "Any coach passengers who want to board before the rest, slip us a ten and there you go."

 

And when you're picking up your Metro and there's a line at Alamo, the folks who're renting luxury cars don't get to jump ahead of you to the counter. And no one at the Motel 6 says, "Those of you waiting at the back of the check-in line can come up to the fromt by paying us an extra few bucks."

 

One might reasonbly argue that when you pay extra for gold Q-Bot, you get more of what you paid for, i.e., rides. I do get that. But one thing I like about parks is their democratic nature. Fabio gets hit by a bird, same as everyone else.

 

Sure, you save up for things that really matter to you, and that's great. But a millionaire from Palm Beach (who's already getting into HHN for cheap 'cause he lives in Florida) isn't going to feel that charge for Express Passes the way a working-class single mother from Georgia who's scrimped to take her two kids as a special treat will. Seventy-five bucks buys a lot of cornflakes. So let Mom cool her heels in the queue. If there's anything the past few years have taught us, it's "The rich play by different rules."

[robbalvey]

I guess this is my point...

 

People pay for better service in everything!

 

First Class Airline Seats vs. Coach

Hyatt vs. Motel 6

Luxary Car vs. Geo Metro

 

What is the difference in doing it at a theme park!?! We all choose how to spend our money, and what's most important.

 

Elissa "all about qbot!" Alvey

 

Well, sorta. Sorta not.

 

Actually...there isn't any sort this or that here. It's a perfect analogy.

 

People who spend the money to travel more, book higher class tickets, rent cars more often, and pay for the luxury services get the privileges that accompany them. And you're wrong about the coach passengers saying "just slip me a $10 and we'll let you on sooner..." because on Delta, for exmaple, you CAN slip them a $50 and somtimes upgrade to First Class is the seats are available. Paying for a fastpass system is no different.

 

Let's face it, you don't agree with the "pay to line jump" systems and that's fine. It's all a matter of opinion. Everyone is entitled to be able to make that choice to either want or not want to pay for a service, and either be frustrated or not frustrated with those jumping the line in front of them who chose to purchase that option.

 

It's not as though getting to bypass the line isn't something that EVERYONE can do. It's availalbe to anyone in the park. Just like a 1st class seat is available to anyone on the plane. We live in an elitist society, that's just a fact of life. So the person who ponies up the money to stay at Royal Pacific at Universal gets unlimited Express Pass and the guy at Motel 6 doesn't. Why is that a bad thing? If it weren't for that option I would stay at the Motel 6 everytime I go to Universal during peak periods also. But since I know I will get better SERVICE by spending the extra money at the resort hotel, I will go for that option.

 

That being said, Elissa and I must be in the minority here since we prefer to use any 'pay for line jumping' system when it is offered. In fact, we will probably patronize a park MORE that has a fastpass or Qbot type of service more than one that doesn't.

 

I don't mean to sound like we are being elitist or anything, but if we can make it so we don't have to stand in line...we won't. Now we're also not the type of people who show up mid-day through a park and just buy the fastpass because we were too lazy to get there when the park opens, that's not us at all. We show up to parks ASS EARLY, get in as much as possible, and THEN purchase the line jumping option if needed.

 

Basically if a park has lines longer than 20-30 minutes for major rides and they have a pay service available, we are there!

 

Overall, most parks we don't get the opportunity to visit very often, so why spend all that money to travel to far away destinations only to spend most of that time waiting in line?

 

I certianly don't fall within that "rich" category that you've carved out that anyone who buys a fastpass service automatically falls into, but I don't feel the least bad about purchasing such a service or staying the more expensive hotel that offers it. I work pretty damn hard for my salary just like the next person does, and if I choose to purchase a 'first class' option, I'm not going to feel the least bit bad for the person who doesn't.

 

We pick and choose our 'first class' service options. Like Elissa said, we fly coach, we stay in cheap motels when there isn't an Express option, we rent small compact cars, we eat mostly at fast food, but when it comes to the parks, which is the core of our hobby, we want the best service we can possibly get. And if $15 to $25 each is going to make my day better and increase my overall experience, it's a small price to pay compared to the cost of just getting to the park.

 

--Robb "This is just my opinion...nobody is right or wrong for disagreeing wiht it." Alvey

[shepp]

Actually...there isn't any sort this or that here. It's a perfect analogy.

 

People who spend the money to travel more, book higher class tickets, rent cars more often, and pay for the luxury services get the privileges that accompany them. And you're wrong about the coach passengers saying "just slip me a $10 and we'll let you on sooner..." because on Delta, for exmaple, you CAN slip them a $50 and somtimes upgrade to First Class is the seats are available. Paying for a fastpass system is no different.

 

Let's face it, you don't agree with the "pay to line jump" systems and that's fine. It's all a matter of opinion.

 

Robb, I'm not claiming some moral high ground here. Hell, I'll likely get an ExpressPass at HHN next time around.

 

The reason I said it was an imperfect analogy is because queue waiting is a zero-sum game, while renting a car isn't. If someone rents a Bentley, nobody's going to go let some air out of your Metro's tires. Someone opting to spend more money doesn't cut into the worth of what you've purchased, in this case time in a car.

 

But when someone pays to have his parkgoing experience improved, that means someone else - actually a bunch of someone elses - will have a worse time: everyone delayed so Mr. Premium can ride first will wait longer, and potentially ride fewer rides. That's not the sort of thing that happens when someone pays for a first-class airline upgrade; a flight attendant doesn't go into coach and take a little bit of booze out of everyone's glass so the new first-class passenger will have enough to drink.

 

Which is not to say I didn't happily pay a bit more to stay on property at Cedar Point so I could get a jump on the crowds.

[CoasterGrey]

I used to feel strongly against line-jumping programs, but after our last trip to SFOG I now am in favor of them. We were there on an October Sunday afternoon (opening time around 11am). We purchased a Gold QBot and were able to ride every coaster in about 4 hours. Many of the lines were over an hour long - we had driven a total of 3000 miles on that coaster trip, and we were determined to get all the credits available. We would not have been able to do that without Gold QBot.

[CoasterFanatic]

we had driven a total of 3000 miles on that coaster trip, and we were determined to get all the credits available. We would not have been able to do that without Gold QBot.

 

But would the lines had all been 1hr long if they didn't have QBot? While I think the FastPass systems is not so evil, I also feel that any time I go to a park and spend (insert dollar amount here), I should not have my visit tarnished by the people who spend more money.

 

There is only one thing that can make this customer happy and that is ... more capacity. Six Flags is covering up their operational shortcomings by saying, "But, if you spend more money, you can skip the lines". To me this is BS, and a diversion from what the real problems are.

 

I would love to see what people would have to say about Cedar Point if they cut their coasters down to one-train operation and offered a "line-skipping" program.

[stew560]

That's not the sort of thing that happens when someone pays for a first-class airline upgrade; a flight attendant doesn't go into coach and take a little bit of booze out of everyone's glass so the new first-class passenger will have enough to drink.

But they do take an extra inch or two away from my legroom so that the people in first class can lie down.

 

Just like Robb and Elissa said, this is America, and America is run on money. More money gets you better stuff and better treatment. While I don't see myself ever using the Gold Q-bot or VIP program, I am not against it. Hell if you want to go to an extreme, someone could rent out the entire park for the day (like some companies do) and if I made a 3 hour trip to the park without calling first or checking the website, only to find it closed, that sure as hell would inconvenience me as well.

 

How about preferred parking? For an extra $5, I can park closer to the park, while everyone else has to walk further because they don't want to pay.

 

I have EZ-Pass in my car, the addition of those lanes cause more traffic in the regular cash and exact change lanes. My $1 bi-monthly fee lets me drive right through at 50mph while people are waiting in line to pay their $0.35. There are tons of examples where paying for something lets you get something at the expense of others...

 

But would the lines had all been 1hr long if they didn't have QBot?

Do the Q-bots really add that much to the lines? I remember well before qbots waiting in lines that were just as long. Hell, I waited 3 hours for B:TR once and I remember it being well over 2 hours for years before there ever was a Q-Bot.

 

Paying for preference doesn't bother me. It's the people in "wheelchairs" that have 15 of their friends with them that get to me! An true injury with a friend or two is one thing, but when a whole crew comes up...give me a break.

[gisco]

But when someone pays to have his parkgoing experience improved, that means someone else - actually a bunch of someone elses - will have a worse time: everyone delayed so Mr. Premium can ride first will wait longer, and potentially ride fewer rides. That's not the sort of thing that happens when someone pays for a first-class airline upgrade; a flight attendant doesn't go into coach and take a little bit of booze out of everyone's glass so the new first-class passenger will have enough to drink.

 

I think theme parks were like airlines without first class. Everyone paid the same and waited in the same lines. Now the parks are adding first class services, the Q-Bots and Fastpasses and the ones who pay the extra get more ameneties just like you would in a plane. Pay for first class and you get more leg room and free booze.

What would be the differance if the airlines removed first class and kept the number of seats on the plane the same? I think you would get more leg room. So should all airlines drop first class so we can all have more leg room and all have the same experiance?

[Movieguy]

I'll admit, I've never had any experience with Fastpass or q-bots or stuff like that. But to me it seems like it's going to turn into another way to stand in line. It seems to me that with fastpass, a heck of a lot of other people are going to come at the time you have designated, and you're still gonna be waiting in line regardless of all things.

 

And as for q-bot, well, it seems to me that more people with the money to do it are going to become aware of it, and Six Flags will have just created a system where you pay money to stand in line basically. Seems pretty dumb to me.

 

Then again, there could be something to this I'm not getting. I've never understood how that whole fastpass thing works anyway, let alone this new thing.

[Bob O]

I have no problem at all with parks that offer free fastpass type system like those at wdw/USF. They are free to use by all guests of the park.

But i dont like and wouldnt use a system like fastlane that is used at SF parks because these parks often run there rides(intentionally imo) at less than full capacity to force many people to pay extra. Now if parks that charged extra ran all there rides at full capacity from the minute a park opens(and have the rides operational before they drop the opening rope for the mad dash)it wouldnt be so bad.

[Sir Clinksalot]

But here's the thing, Bob O - both WDW and USF still have their more expensive perks. Stay onsite at Disney and stay in a less-crowded park three hours later than the great unwashed masses. Stay onsite at Universal and you're FOTL all the way.

 

I'm a fan of the Express passes and the Q-Bots and all that for one simple reason. I ride every insane thing I can get close to, but my girlfriend simply cannot. I wouldn't dream of making her wait around for an hour or two while I queued up for a 90 second ride. If they offer a single rider line, then I'll gladly get in it - but most parks don't have that option, so I have to do what I can to make sure I'm not the only person having a nice day.

 

I feel guilty sometimes. There's something a little sad when you're walking onto Spiderman, passing a 45 minute queue. And MAN do folks in standby give you severe nasty looks. But if I'm willing to pay the extra (and don't go confusing me with a wealthy man), that's my prerogative.

[disneyfan1313]

Interesting discussion...

 

I am fully in favor of systems that allow you to purchase a better experience in the park... why? Because *anyone* can do it - some just choose not to. In your example with the guy from Palm Beach vs. the mother from GA. The mother from GA could have saved up the money, planned, or made different choices in life to be able to have used the service. It is not as if Universal is saying that only people who have a british background whose family has made over 100k for 3 generations can purchase them.. anyone can! Some simply make poor decisions in life (either in planning vacations or budgeting money) or choose not to based on their opinions of what their time is worth. Will I always purchase Q-Bot or Express passes? No. I take a look and see what the lines are like and figure out what that would make my time worth per hour. If I have the cash and I have planned well.. I will use them. I will never begrudge someone for using these types of services because I could have as well..

 

Everyone looks at what is important in their life.. To me it is time. I work very hard to get the vacation which I do and I want every moment of it to be used well... Not spent waiting in line at a six flags. Plus - I would argue that Gold Q-Bots and VIP tours at Six Flags do not have much impact on the lines at all.. probably less than 200 people a day in the whole park. Regular Q-Bots and Fastpass systems do have an impact on the lines due to the amount of people that use them.

[Scaparri]

I think the system is fair, but has some flaws. I can relate this to my other passions…racing and sports. When I go to a race or game, everybody has the option to pay extra for a better seat, which I’ve always (and still do) think is completely fair. You can make your experience as good as you want it to be. It is essential the same concept with services such as the Q-bot. However! I think the system still has its flaws. Such a service should be much more advertised. In sports or racing, when you look for tickets, be it online or through mail order, every seat and it’s price is listed right in front of you, giving you the option to choose “how good” your experience is. If you want to spend more money, you get a better seat. I think this should be the case with systems such as the Q-bot. When you look online, at the ticket box, on a pamphlet, etc, I think they should have a similar pricing system right there in front of you. Such a service should be widely known. Then, I think it will be a fair option.

[Sir Clinksalot]

I agree with Robb on this one.

 

Like Robb and Elissa we don't stay in Marriot's when we go on trips. We don't get Luxury Car Rentals. We don't fly first class. But we do use the Q-bot, Fastlane, etc. Why? Because we want to get the most out of our experience.

 

At SFOG last Sunday we would have maybe been able to ride everything once if we were lucky. As it was we got 3 rides on Superman, 2 on GASM, Cyclone and Acrophobia. And at least one ride on everything else.

 

We could have had more I'm sure. Nobody is going to convince me that I was in the wrong because I chose to pay extra to have the luxury of time.

[CoasterCrazy]

I like using Q-bots and fast pass when I go to theme parks because I want to make sure that I get everything in. However if the park I go to doesn't offer them I could care less because it doesn't bother me to wait in line. I think they are great because they give people the option of not having to wait inline. And I don't think they are unfair because anyone that goes to the park can use it.

[Bob O]

mulchpuppy, One difference between disney and universal and SF parks is that from my experience at these parks is the SF intentionally runs there rides at less than full capacity in a attempt to force the public to buy a skip the lines pass.

And at USF when it is the busy time of the year they limit how often you can use your hotel card to bypass lines during the busier times of the day.