Element change on B&M's

[DCs221]

I think a lot of you all are being overly technical about the general order of B&Ms...for instance

 

Kumba

Medusa SFGAdv

Scream

Medusa SFMW

Kraken

Dragon Kahn

Superman La Attracion de Acero

Superman Krypton Coaster

Great Bear

Montu

(and to a lesser extent Alpengeist, Dominator, Batman Dark Knight, Insane Speed, Silver Bullet, Wild Fire)

 

are all almost exactly the same in layout and element order/selection. They're also similar to these rides, which are almost the same as eachother

 

Every Batman clone

Talon

Raptor

Orochi

Katun

Black Mamba (in it's first half especially)

Patriot

Pyrennees

 

My thing is, instead of randomly shuffling the inversion order like some of these do (without making any real changes in ride feel, which is why many people complain that B&Ms are so similar), and like people have suggested, they should explore different ways of implementing and modifying these inversions, while not maintaining the same inversion order every time. It seems they've started to do this somewhat with several of their newer installations like Hydra and Tatsu, but there's still so much they can switch up to give increasingly unique rides.

 

With that said, B&M seem to me like they, in contrast to Intamin, thrive on the proven and reliable nature of their designs. At any park, B&Ms are crowd pleasers...I can't think of any exceptions to that, other than maybe a few older ones that have gotten a little rough (though I loved Iron Wolf). Anyways, since most people won't go to too many parks, they're doing perfectly fine by making similar but proven layouts for their clients. Plus, if someone visits two parks with similar rides, like SFGAdv and BGW, they're not going to really complain that Nitro is like Apollo's Chariot because of the quality of their product, a fact that I know firsthand from several friends.

[Guest]

B&M builds what the parks request. Its not as if the final order of inversions is really up to B&M.

 

And like you said, it really doesn't matter anyway. The majority of park goers don't even know that all of those coasters listed above exist, so really, what's the benefit of building a coaster with a whacky inversion list? Just to entertain enthusiasts?

[rollermonkey]

I think this argument is getting out of hand.

 

If there were hundreds or even dozens of types of inversions out there, and B&M was only using 5, 8 or 12 of them all, then yeah, I could see that as being a problem.

 

The truth of the matter is there really aren't THAT many ways to go upside down:

(I'll use the B&M term when other companies use a different name for the same thing, this is a thread about B&M, not Vekoma.)

 

Batwing

Cobra Roll

Dive Loop

Flat Spin/Wingover

Flip

360 inline Roll

Inside Top Hat

Zero - G roll

and DerekRX's Favorite:

Vertical Loop

 

That's nine common elements that invert riders. (Yeah, two invert twice.)

Sure there are some one-off inverting elements, like the Vekoma Butterfly, or Medusa's(W) Sea Serpent, but these are the big ones that actually get used. Last time I checked, they invented the pretzel loop, too.

 

B&M also uses an incline loop on occasion, they've used inclined Immelmans, as well as some other less than common elements.

 

Truth is, B&M's (outside the clones) tend to be unique from one to the next. How are Medusa and Hydra similar? They aren't.

Neither are just about any other pair of similar type coasters that aren't actually clones.

 

So, to be fair, everyone rips Vekoma for all the Boomerang (44 copies operating+5 invertigos, and 4 giant boomerangs) and SLC's (32 or 37 depending on the 'custom ones').

 

So let's look at B&M Clones:

12 Batmen

2 Raptors

2 Medusas

2 Oblivions

 

That's it. 18 clones (of 64 installations.)

8 of those Batman clones are 6F's orders. 3 of the other 4 were ordered by other companies outside the US.

 

I think for the most part we'd all rather ride any BTR than an SLC, right?

 

End result, in my humble opinion is that B&M makes some pretty great rides that may share elements with other coasters by the company, but each one usually has at least one thing that makes it special. Sometimes it's the theming, sometimes it's something just different than seen elsewhere. (Hydra's cobra roll is definitely different!)

 

I'd love to see B&M throw a top hat in somewhere, or maybe they could pull off the butterfly without killing everyone on board! Until then, I like what they are doing, and I will continue to seek out and ride B&M coasters around the world.

 

If you want to call me a fanboy, ok, whatever.

 

There's never been a death on a B&M (knock wood) and they don't give me a headache.

 

So if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go try out Pyrenees tomorrow for the first time:

Loop, Zero-G roll, Loop, Cobra Roll, Wingover.

 

Who knows, maybe I'll hate it, but I really doubt it.

[VoyageVinnie]

I really enjoy riding B&M's no matter what the element layout is, but I find that the thought of a B&M just doesn't excite me the way an Intamin or Gravity Group or GCI coaster does. Really I find myself traveling for Intamin or GG over every other company. B&M makes a solid addition to a coaster line up at any park because you know it will be smooth and for the most part be a tremendous ride. It just isn't as exciting as what some other companies can put out right now. Maybe this is just me, or do any of the rest of you understand where I'm coming from with this? My perfect example is Hershey Park. I pretty much went there for Storm Runner and Lightning Racer, but enjoyed riding Great Bear while I was there. Maybe if B&M started doing something fresh and new it would renew my desire to see them build more. They sort of started that by building Tatsu, which I need someone to let me know if that is worth my flight out to LA from Cleveland Ohio. Thanks

[viking86]

Everyone is saying how boring B&M is and how Intamin makes more exciting layouts, but I think that Intamins standard looping coasters have some of the most boring layouts ever. Colossus @ Thorpe park may have been intense, but the layout was very predictable. Intamin may be making more unique elements, but when it comes to regular looping coasters I think B&M does it better.

[Worm]

To sum it all up from my eyes, B&M's are just pretty much predictable. There isn't any B&M that makes you think. "what the hell is that?!". Like Intamin tries new stuff and uasally wins. (Storm Runner)

 

The only B&M's that make you go WOW, are those like Black Mamba, Nemesis, Montu, etc. but thats because of theming. NOT B&M.

 

you cacth my drift?

[jamesdillaman]

Tatsu made me go wow, it was so high off the ground... But that's just me.

[cgodsey]

This has to be one of the most entertaining threads I have ever been witness to.

 

While interviewing a B&M employee last week, when I mentioned the enthusiast community he made a face. He said, "uhhh....can I make a joke?"

 

Threads like this are exactly the reason the manufacturers feel the way they do about us.

 

THANKS EVERYONE!

[jamesdillaman]

^lol, if anyone from B&M reads this, tell them to feel free to build as many batman clones as they want near me, they can even put one in my neighbor's and my backyard! Never get enough!!

-James "Doesn't care the coasters are similar, coasters are coasters!" Dillaman

[MattJackson]

To sum it all up from my eyes, B&M's are just pretty much predictable. There isn't any B&M that makes you think. "what the hell is that?!". Like Intamin tries new stuff and uasally wins. (Storm Runner)

 

The only B&M's that make you go WOW, are those like Black Mamba, Nemesis, Montu, etc. but thats because of theming. NOT B&M.

 

you cacth my drift?

 

Yeah, you just named some of the MOST INSANELY intense rides, most people here would TOTALLY agree in that, but they're only good for their theming. Way to go.

 

Actually, there ARE some B&M things that make me wonder, like their 'incline elements'.

 

And Intamin "wins"? Is there some competition that's going on?

 

Chances are, you haven't ridden one or more of the coasters you've just listed, and just talking out of the mouth of the people.

 

And when did Intamin come into the conversation? I thought the thread was about B&M's 'repeated layouts', not an "Intamin's better than B&M" thread...

 

(Somebody has to keep the Intamin enthusiasts at bay)

[rollermonkey]

Oh, and by the way, I've had the fortune of riding 44 of the B&M's all around the world. (I pick up #45 later today.) I think I know a tiny bit about the layouts and theming of some coasters.

 

Just because RCDB says Loop, Zero-G, Loop, that doesn't mean there might not be an air hill, turn, or helix in there.

 

This is a thread about similarities in B&M layouts. The only reason I mentioned another company in my previous post was to demonstrate that some companies use different names for the same element.

(Vekoma - Corkscrew = B&M Wing over)

 

So let's leave the... Arrow/Intamin/Vekoma/B&M/PAX/Giavanola/Zamperla/Mack/S&S fanboyism

out of all this, shall we?

[DCs221]

Intamin came into play when it was a pertinent comparison to B&M...what gives you the right to tell him not to compare B&M's layouts and/or elements to Intamin?

[Immel Man]

I don't see a problem with B&M's having similar layouts at all. All of the older B&M's built in the early 90's had many features no one had ever seen before. A few Vekomas had their version of the cobra roll (boomerang in Vekoma speak) and Arrow had their own batwing element, but who had ever seen anything like interlocking corkscrews, dive loops, immelmans, zero-g-rolls, inclined loops, or loops circling lift hills. Plus every element B&M built was far larger and more impressive than the competition's. You could not have asked for them to be any more innovative. Each time they come out with a distinctively different type of coaster they always come up with some new features for it.

 

B&M simply found combinations that works and the continued strong sales of their decade-old models more than justifies sticking with a proven formula. They throw something new at us every now and then. Besides the same exact elements often feel very different from one ride to the next.

[MattJackson]

Intamin came into play when it was a pertinent comparison to B&M...what gives you the right to tell him not to compare B&M's layouts and/or elements to Intamin?

 

I didn't tell him he couldn't talk about it, I asked when it came into the conversation. Hah. So there.

 

I still think that it doesn't belong here, but I can't control what the people say.

 

This is a thread about similarities in B&M layouts. The only reason I mentioned another company in my previous post was to demonstrate that some companies use different names for the same element.

(Vekoma - Corkscrew = B&M Wing over)

 

So let's leave the... Arrow/Intamin/Vekoma/B&M/PAX/Giavanola/Zamperla/Mack/S&S fanboyism out of all this, shall we?

 

Yes, lets.

[DATman]

To sum it all up from my eyes, B&M's are just pretty much predictable. There isn't any B&M that makes you think. "what the hell is that?!". Like Intamin tries new stuff and uasally wins. (Storm Runner)

 

The only B&M's that make you go WOW, are those like Black Mamba, Nemesis, Montu, etc. but thats because of theming. NOT B&M.

 

you cacth my drift?

 

 

DD and Shakira aren't very predictable. Nor are RRv, Tatsu, Air, The Patriot, and Talon (to name a few).If you notice, it all has to do with park prefernce. B&M isn't predictable, the parks that buy them just want them a certain way (cheapest, more inversions).

 

Intamin tries new stuff, eh? It's not like every ride they build is original. Look at impulses. Look at their sit down loopers (most are clones). Look at 2 of the 3 SUE's. Look at the fact that Intamin has this: Halfpipe, Sit-down, Hyper, Rocket, and Impulse. B&M has: Flyer, Invert, Hyper, Sit-Down, Stand-Up, Dive Coaster, and Floorless. Note, both companies use the same track style in basically all their designs (minus half-pipe). I'd say they are pretty even, wouldn't you?

[DemonKnight5150]

I think Riddler's Revenge is pretty unique if it hasn't been mentioned already.

[DCs221]

I wouldn't DATman, especially since we're considering general layout originality over which has more types of rides. If you have 2 bobsled coasters... both the same layout except one of them has a 90* turn somewhere whereas the other has a 180* turn there... that's not originality. But, look at the diversity on this lineup...

 

Storm Runner

Balder

Kingda Ka

Colossus

Volcano

El Toro

Kanonen

Atlantis Adventure

Goliath

Wicked Twister

Millennium Force

RITA

Speed Monster

Supersonic Odyssey

Thunder Dolphin

Superman Escape

 

I specified these coasters because in general, they are very little alike in their layouts. Not only is element order different, but there are few that share the same elements. Those that do, like RITA and Superman Escape, are modified in their implementation; RITA's twisted hills are relatively flat and wide, while Superman's are much steeper with a smaller radius pullover. The similarities between Intamin rides, with some exceptions, usually exist between 2 or 3 coasters, not 90% of all their rides.

 

While B&M does have some innovation in their layouts, they don't modify their elements or include new elements very much at all. I'd like to see more of inversions like DD's immelman with the helix that wraps around it...that's a new way of implementing that inversion into the layout. The way Silver Bullet's 0-g roll continues to rotate into that turnaround is relatively unique. AIR's layout in general is relatively unique...may not be the most exciting ride ever, but I feel that B&M did a good job in working with the flying concept to design a ride that really uses it's abilities from riders being able to flip on their backs or stomach's, instead of just doing U turns because it's fun being in the flying position.

 

Like I said before though, B&M have their spot in coaster design, and it's an immensely prominent one as one what many, including myself, believe are the top 2 designers. They make reliable rides that everyone knows parkgoers will really enjoy. I know several of their rides are among my favorites...Apollo's Chariot, Raptor, Alpengeist...so what they do the definately do well. I'm just rarely that excited about a new B&M opening, because as many have suggested, their layouts (and inversion order as this thread cites) aren't usually anything out of the ordinary.

[Jumboshrmp]

And the flyers - you won't find a pretzel loop on many floorless coasters.

 

A pretzel loop is pretty much impossible on any type of style except flying.

Of course, you probably were just being sarcastic.

[MattJackson]

I think we are mentioning some rides that aren't fair to include:

 

Impulse Coasters. There isn't much they can do as of now, back and forth through the station up a spike on either side.

 

Stratocoasters: There aren't many ways to get a train 400+ feet in the air, and Intamin found a good way to do it, leave them alone.

 

Any terrained coaster: It's not fair to look at a terrain designed coaster and say "that's different". Unless there is somewhere else in the world that has the EXACT same terrain, chances are, it won't have the same layout.

 

I still don't see why people have such a problem with it.

[Vekoma Fan Boy]

And the flyers - you won't find a pretzel loop on many floorless coasters.

 

A pretzel loop is pretty much impossible on any type of style except flying.

Of course, you probably were just being sarcastic.

 

 

Actually a pretzel loop is possble on any kind of coaster just look at Speed Monster at TusenFryd

[Real]

Two different types of rides with two different trian types that just share an element that has a similar shape but completely different feelings.

 

But the pretzel on Speed monster will really only work on a ride that small unless you blow the pretzel up alot because you need small trains. The transitions have to be fairly quick and with a long train your G's in the back of the train and front would vary too much I think for a company to do it.

 

I could probably do it in NL but its just different.