Geauga Lake Discussion Thread

[Real]

I never thought the Vekoma Flyers were POS. When they run, they are fairly smooth with little to no movement in the restraints. I also find their layouts (before Tatsu) to be the more inventive of the 2 flyers.

 

I rather dont like that its moving away from me, but I was finding it harder and harder to get to GL these days. I think its a very respectable ride minus its mainteance history.

[cjeagle35]

Hi, I'm from the Dayton area and am a huge Cedar Point and Kings Island fan and I'd just like to chime in with some thoughts on this issue because I think you are being unfair in your judgements.

 

Weren't they supposedly honoring a pretty significant, previously existing capital plan for PKI for 2007? And this is what they come up with? Somehow I don't think Paramount planned to move a POS Vekoma over from Geauga Lake. This delays even the possibility of PKI getting a respectable coaster for at least another few years. The park is packed as it is. They're going to have to start ripping stuff out.

 

Yes and I believe this was Paramount's plan for Kings Island in 2007. Don't act as though Paramount's past plans for the park have been great. Except for FOF, DZ, Delerium, and the Nick stuff, all of Paramounts installations have been extremely mediocre. Son of Beast?? Tomb Raider? Ripping up the most beautiful area of the park with the anique cars and flyers for a mediocre coaster full of concrete and metal?? This plan makes perfect sense for Paramount but not for Cedar Fair. Obviously they thought, since we are trying to get out of the amusement park business, how can we get another mediocre attraction into KI cheaply? We see that people will still come even if our rides suck, so why build an expensive B&M, we aren't going to beat Cedar Point anyway, we proved that in 2000. So they thought just bought a roller coaster from not too far away and are going to theme it as they did Borg Assimilator. CF, now the owners, already agreed to the move as owners of GL, just go along with it seeing KI needs another thrill ride.

 

I think complaining about it is perfectly reasonable. It's possible that PKI makes more money than Cedar Point does based on the greater attendance. AFAIK industry experts claim that greater attendance generally correlates to greater profits. At least that's what I read in Forbes So CF goes and shoves a complete piece of junk on a park that makes good money, then gives a masterpiece to Cedar Point because they are so in love with pumping that park up, even though it completely doesn't need it. They pump up CP, and let other parks like Knotts rot. Sucks, and I'll whine some more about it.

 

Yes it is true that KI did make more money than CP in 2005, however CP made more money. As shown by this article

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060620/BUSINESS06/606200357

As it shows, CP beat KI by more than a 100 million in revenues last year. I don't know why people make such a big deal out of this, CP can afford to have a major attraction added every year, they have thousands of hotel rooms to fill, that is why CP gets the best. It is a resort destination, where as KI is more of a season pass park, so guests normally do not spend as much inside the park at KI and they are not staying at the park's own hotel rooms.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I do not believe X-Flight is the answer for KI, and I would much rather have something else. KI desperatly needs a B&M and I don't understand CF's thinking on this one. But I'm sure it has been in planning and they just let it go on. Don't worry to much though, I'm sure in a few years, we will see B&Ms and GCIs at KI. All of Cedar Fair's parks (except MiA) have recieved great coasters from these companies.

[PKIDelirium]

For crying out loud.

 

It's the first season under CF. Be glad we're getting X-Flight, because otherwise we wouldn't be getting a major ride so soon.

[ginzo]

Yes and I believe this was Paramount's plan for Kings Island in 2007. Don't act as though Paramount's past plans for the park have been great.

 

The gist of what I'm saying is that PKI needs a decent coaster. This is because all their current coasters suck, thus making their decisions to date not so great.

 

Yes it is true that KI did make more money than CP in 2005, however CP made more money. As shown by this article

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060620/BUSINESS06/606200357

As it shows, CP beat KI by more than a 100 million in revenues last year. I don't know why people make such a big deal out of this, CP can afford to have a major attraction added every year, they have thousands of hotel rooms to fill, that is why CP gets the best.

 

Actually, that article shows that Knotts has revenue very close to what Cedar Point has. So why is Knotts been turned into such a dump, while their flagship park gets its 17th coaster?

 

It is a resort destination, where as KI is more of a season pass park, so guests normally do not spend as much inside the park at KI and they are not staying at the park's own hotel rooms.

 

CP is barely a resort destination. They're getting there. But they're nowhere near a real resort park, like Disney or Universal.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I do not believe X-Flight is the answer for KI, and I would much rather have something else. KI desperatly needs a B&M and I don't understand CF's thinking on this one. But I'm sure it has been in planning and they just let it go on. Don't worry to much though, I'm sure in a few years, we will see B&Ms and GCIs at KI. All of Cedar Fair's parks (except MiA) have recieved great coasters from these companies.

 

Or maybe PKI will just become a wasteland like Knotts. They'll suck all the money they can from it, and invest almost nothing. It's great business, but sucks for enthusiasts. And when the locals whine about not getting any new rides, they can just pull another secondhand Vekoma from another park. Get ready for a $5 swing ride!!!

The Future of PKI- Giving You Nothing After Making You Walk Down A Lift Hill, then Yelling At You for Taking Pictures

[Top Thrill Dragster]

^Knott's is getting a new roller coaster this year too, and Knott's is far from being considered a dump. The Cedar Fair park that I would consider a dump is Michigan's Adventure.

[cjeagle35]

The gist of what I'm saying is that PKI needs a decent coaster. This is because all their current coasters suck, thus making their decisions to date not so great.

 

Yes agreed, but wouldn't there be a tremendous outcry from the coaster enthusiasts if CF wasn't investing in any of the Paramount Parks. We would hear the same "CF only cares about CP" chant that you are crying now. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, I would much rather wait a year and see a B&M, Intamin, or GCI at KI than get X-Flight. X-Flight isn't a terrible ride by the way, it is the smoothest thing I think Vekoma has ever created and it offers a much better layout than the B&M Superman clones. But it has been a while since KI has gotten a real coaster, so CF decided to go on with the plans as is. And as much as I hate to say it, I think the public will still like this ride. Believe me, I have friends who swore Face-Off was the coolest ride they've riden before I took them to CP.

 

Actually, that article shows that Knotts has revenue very close to what Cedar Point has. So why is Knotts been turned into such a dump, while their flagship park gets its 17th coaster?

 

Knotts is definatly not a dump, and CF definatly has invested quite a bit into it. While yes, CF definatly has taken away from the orginal themeing of the park, it still remains clean and the operations run smoothly. Knotts got Silver Bullet, Screamin' Swing, Xcellerator, others, and now Sierra Sidewinder from CF. I'd say those are some first class additions.

Also, you forgot that Knotts also is a year round park, that definatly helps them make more. And don't forget that it is more expensive to run a park in that area of the country.

 

CP is barely a resort destination. They're getting there. But they're nowhere near a real resort park, like Disney or Universal.

 

It certaintly is a resort destination. Tourism to Lake Erie in the summer has sprung directly from Cedar Point. Now with all their hotels and indoor water parks, CP now offers a resort experiance. The difference is that Disney offers the best family rides and themeing in an always warm climate. CP offers the best roller coasters, but only in summer months, and that is why they can't make as much as disney.

 

Or maybe PKI will just become a wasteland like Knotts. They'll suck all the money they can from it, and invest almost nothing. It's great business, but sucks for enthusiasts. Get ready for a $5 swing ride!!!

 

As I proved above, not true. The reason for the $5 is just because the ride is a prototype and it doesn't have the capacity to be a free attraction. I don't think much at KI will change, just look at CP's sister parks. We will get good coasters, not the best, but good rides, good capacity, and clean (while not nessesarily well themed) environment.

[ginzo]

Knotts is definatly not a dump, and CF definatly has invested quite a bit into it.

 

I was there last week, and it was an awful park. After having been at Disneyland the day before, I couldn't handle that place for more than a few hours. GhostRider broke down, and they didn't give us anything for the hassle of walking down the lift hill. Then they got mad when I snapped pictures of the broken down train.

 

 

It certaintly is a resort destination. Tourism to Lake Erie in the summer has sprung directly from Cedar Point. Now with all their hotels and indoor water parks, CP now offers a resort experiance. The difference is that Disney offers the best family rides and themeing in an always warm climate. CP offers the best roller coasters, but only in summer months, and that is why they can't make as much as disney.

 

A couple of hotels and a TGI Friday's don't make a resort. Isn't there nothing to do after the park shuts down? Not the case with Universal and Disney. And the quality of CP's coasters is highly debatable. Maverick is looking to be awesome though.

 

 

As I proved above, not true. The reason for the $5 is just because the ride is a prototype and it doesn't have the capacity to be a free attraction. I don't think much at KI will change, just look at CP's sister parks. We will get good coasters, not the best, but good rides, good capacity, and clean (while not nessesarily well themed) environment.

 

One thing is for sure- Racer and Beast won't get the track work they desperately need. CF is awful with wood.

[cjeagle35]

I was there last week, and it was an awful park. After having been at Disneyland the day before, I couldn't handle that place for more than a few hours. GhostRider broke down, and they didn't give us anything for the hassle of walking down the lift hill. Then they got mad when I snapped pictures of the broken down train.

 

Well I've only been to Knotts once and I was actually quite impressed. You can't put it on Disneyland's level (you can't put anything on Disneyland's level). But when I was there I found the park clean, operations quick, and the rides great (especially Ghostrider, but this was before many of the problems). Now Six Flags Magic Mountain, that place is a dump, I don't even want to get started on its problems.

 

A couple of hotels and a TGI Friday's don't make a resort. Isn't there nothing to do after the park shuts down? Not the case with Universal and Disney. And the quality of CP's coasters is highly debatable. Maverick is looking to be awesome though.

 

There is plenty to do at night. Put-In-Bay and Kelly's Island are huge tourism spots. While everything isn't as self contained as Disney, I would definatly call Cedar Point a "resort experiance," while maybe not a true "self sufficient resort" like Disney. As for coasters, 4 in the top 15 in Amusement Today and 3 and half million visitors speaks for itself. Remember 210 million in revenue is huge in amusement park terms.

 

One thing is for sure- Racer and Beast won't get the track work they desperately need. CF is awful with wood.

 

Can they really be worse than Paramount or Six Flags? Believe me, be glad KI is owned by CF now, it is definatly the lesser of the evils.

[ginzo]

Well I've only been to Knotts once and I was actually quite impressed. You can't put it on Disneyland's level (you can't put anything on Disneyland's level). But when I was there I found the park clean, operations quick, and the rides great (especially Ghostrider, but this was before many of the problems). Now Six Flags Magic Mountain, that place is a dump, I don't even want to get started on its problems.

 

GhostRider was obviously a great ride at one point, and now it's terrible. Silver Bullet is a very lackluster B&M invert compared to Montu or Dueling Dragons. Xcelerator is kinda fun, but not worth more than a few spins. Mantis Man is a little out there for riding it 20,000 times.

 

 

 

As for coasters, 4 in the top 15 in Amusement Today and 3 and half million visitors speaks for itself. Remember 210 million in revenue is huge in amusement park terms.

 

The Amusement Today rankings are universally scorned here. CP has one top 10 coaster in Mitch Hawker's poll.

 

 

Can they really be worse than Paramount or Six Flags? Believe me, be glad KI is owned by CF now, it is definatly the lesser of the evils.

 

I do agree that CF is the best choice out of possible suitors, but I don't think my home park is going to improve much.

[cjeagle35]

GhostRider was obviously a great ride at one point, and now it's terrible. Silver Bullet is a very lackluster B&M invert compared to Montu or Dueling Dragons. Xcelerator is kinda fun, but not worth more than a few spins. Mantis Man is a little out there for riding it 20,000 times

 

Fix up GhostRider and you got yourself a very good coaster collection. You can't really compare Silver Bullet to Montu, not every ride can be the best. I found the ride to be very fun, but it obviously isn't the top invert in the world.

 

The Amusement Today rankings are universally scorned here. CP has one top 10 coaster in Mitch Hawker's poll.

 

I guess thats understandable. But I didn't see a park with 2 in the top 10 either. Also don't forget that Mitch Hawker's poll isn't without its problems either. Katun only had 33 riders and Pyrenees only had 10. Is that really satiscally significate. Point is that with Maverick, I don't really see a park that matches CP's steel coasters.

 

I do agree that CF is the best choice out of possible suitors, but I don't think my home park is going to improve much.

 

Finally we are getting somewhere. I don't think we will see ground breaking changes either, but I think the park will overall be better taken care off. And I think we are much better off in our hunt for a B&M.

 

Btw, I'm an Ohio guy too, is ginzo kind of for Anthony Gonzalez and Teddy Ginn, Ohio State recievers?

[mcjaco]

Or maybe PKI will just become a wasteland like Knotts. They'll suck all the money they can from it, and invest almost nothing. It's great business, but sucks for enthusiasts. And when the locals whine about not getting any new rides, they can just pull another secondhand Vekoma from another park. Get ready for a $5 swing ride!!!

 

So now all the parks are supposed to cater to enthusiasts? I think we make up a small percentage of the overall attendance at the parks. It's all about the mighty dollar, not making us happy.

[ginzo]

Or maybe PKI will just become a wasteland like Knotts. They'll suck all the money they can from it, and invest almost nothing. It's great business, but sucks for enthusiasts. And when the locals whine about not getting any new rides, they can just pull another secondhand Vekoma from another park. Get ready for a $5 swing ride!!!

 

So now all the parks are supposed to cater to enthusiasts? I think we make up a small percentage of the overall attendance at the parks. It's all about the mighty dollar, not making us happy.

 

I use the term enthusiast very loosely. Knotts is a completely AWFUL park. It's good for getting the credits then leaving as quickly as possible. They don't provide a good experience at all. Disney isn't built for roller coasters enthusiasts, but they provide an awesome experience and make far more than CF could ever dream of. Or, if you think comparing to Disney isn't fair, compare Busch Gardens Africa to Knotts. I don't really even have to say anything else now.

[PKIDelirium]

Dude, ginzo, give it up, you're losing.

 

If it weren't for X-Flight, PKI would not be getting a major coaster for 2007 because it's the first full year under CF and there wouldn't have been enough time to plan anything else.

 

It's certainly not a slap in the face. X-Flight is only 6 years old. And just look at Borg!

 

Would you be pissed off if your homepark was Knoebels the year they got Phoenix moved there, because it's a used ride?

[ginzo]

Dude, ginzo, give it up, you're losing.

 

If it weren't for X-Flight, PKI would not be getting a major coaster for 2007 because it's the first full year under CF and there wouldn't have been enough time to plan anything else.

 

It's certainly not a slap in the face. X-Flight is only 6 years old. And just look at Borg!

 

Would you be pissed off if your homepark was Knoebels the year they got Phoenix moved there, because it's a used ride?

 

You just compared the Phoenix to a Vekoma, and I'm losing? It's funny how some of the people arguing with me here don't even think that getting X-Flight is that great of a move.

 

The point is this delays the possibility of PKI getting a real coaster by another few years. Flyers aren't all that great, and I say this having ridden Tatsu, the supposed king of flyers.

 

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not the only person on this thread who thinks this is a stupid move.

[PKI Jizzman]

I dont think PKI will ever be a park where it is like "Got the credits, now lets hit the road!" It is a great place where you can sit down and just relax, the environment it great, and it is a clean park. Would I have rather waited another year for an Intamin, GCI, or B&M? Hell yes! That is one thing that PKI doesnt have, a top knotch coaster that is in great condition. They have the thrill rides and old school coasters.....but nothing new and up to date, that is where CF should have came in and planned out a newer coaster from any company, I dont care.

[ginzo]

Would I have rather waited another year for an Intamin, GCI, or B&M? Hell yes!

 

That's basically the problem with this move. They've just restarted the funding cycle, and you can expect to wait another like 5 years for another coaster to be installed.

[PKIDelirium]

I wouldn't go THAT far... X-Flight isn't exactly a very expensive move... it's gonna be something like $5 million. The other $5 million of the capital is going to the de-branding of the Paramount stuff, increased live entertainment and general paint and maintenance around the park.

[kenshinmac]

Why do people fly off the freaking handle if they aren't getting the worlds best Intamin or B&M these days?

 

I mean seriously you aren't gonna make the park money alone and as it is the X-flight is a great fit for a park. For a park that only has one adult inverted an X-flight is a great match. The public will be very enthusiastic about the addition and it will likely increase attendance significantly.

 

This is the exact same argument that we all had with the news that Blackpool was getting an old SLC... But for a park with no Inverted rides and hardly any inversions it will be a huge source of excitement.

 

I guess what I am saying is that amusement parks are a business... Whatever way you cut it the best way to make money is to appeal to the GP with the least expensive projects. CF has dug itself a big hole with the purchase of the Paramount parks. I wouldn't expect every park to get B&Ms and the like anytime soon. It just isn't cost effective.

 

Besides you guys would complain if it was a clone of another parks ride anyway...

[ginzo]

Why do people fly off the freaking handle if they aren't getting the worlds best Intamin or B&M these days?

 

I just want to be able to ride a great coaster without having to drive several hours or get on a plane.

 

I guess what I am saying is that amusement parks are a business... Whatever way you cut it the best way to make money is to appeal to the GP with the least expensive projects. CF has dug itself a big hole with the purchase of the Paramount parks. I wouldn't expect every park to get B&Ms and the like anytime soon. It just isn't cost effective.

 

IMO that's a pretty silly argument. Of course you want to minimize costs. But, I don't think this philosophy of installing the cheapest attractions possible is great business. PKI went with the bottom bidder with SOB, and look how that turned out. Lawsuit city. In fact, if you look at the parks that lead in attendance they are the ones that invest the MOST in attractions. Is that a coincidence? Nope.

[Carnage]

Weren't they supposedly honoring a pretty significant, previously existing capital plan for PKI for 2007? And this is what they come up with? Somehow I don't think Paramount planned to move a POS Vekoma over from Geauga Lake. This delays even the possibility of PKI getting a respectable coaster for at least another few years. The park is packed as it is. They're going to have to start ripping stuff out.

 

I think complaining about it is perfectly reasonable. It's possible that PKI makes more money than Cedar Point does based on the greater attendance. AFAIK industry experts claim that greater attendance generally correlates to greater profits. At least that's what I read in Forbes So CF goes and shoves a complete piece of junk on a park that makes good money, then gives a masterpiece to Cedar Point because they are so in love with pumping that park up, even though it completely doesn't need it. They pump up CP, and let other parks like Knotts rot. Sucks, and I'll whine some more about it.

 

I thought in the Paramount purchase they said that they had little to no development contracts to honour from Paramount?

 

Moving X-Flight to PKI does not in any way keep the park from getting something new in the next couple years.

 

Let's say CF is planning on building an Intamin hyper for PKI. Considering when they bought Paramount, and the time it takes to change ownership, you're still looking at 2 years until something is built.

 

Major roller coasters are not built overnight. Any major expansion to the Paramount parks are a couple years off unless Paramount already put something into motion, which I understand they did not.

 

Complain about X-Flight, fine. But if you're complaining about CF not building a major coaster for PKI this year that just doesn't make any sense.

[jamesdillaman]

I dont think PKI will ever be a park where it is like "Got the credits, now lets hit the road!" It is a great place where you can sit down and just relax, the environment it great, and it is a clean park. Would I have rather waited another year for an Intamin, GCI, or B&M? Hell yes! That is one thing that PKI doesnt have, a top knotch coaster that is in great condition. They have the thrill rides and old school coasters.....but nothing new and up to date, that is where CF should have came in and planned out a newer coaster from any company, I dont care.

 

Funny, all the friends that have stopped by on their way through that have stayed with me so far said just that: "Got the credits, let's get ut of here!" Then they go off to holiday world, or cedar point, or indiana beach, or SFKK, or whatever was next on their trip. FoF is their standout ride as far as quality goes, and I think that's pretty sad.

 

I also agree with Ginzo, I don't like the move, more so because flyers are notoriously touchy, and I feel for the workers at PKI who now have to deal with it.

 

And for those saying it's such a great ride, it isn't close to FoF. Look at Mitch's poll... X-Flight is 194 on the list. Top Gun is rated higher, and I hear all sorts of complaining about that ride. I personally like Top Gun, but it's definitely better than X-Flight.

 

-James Dillaman

[PKI Jizzman]

It's sad how bad Flight of Fear has gotten as for as the ride. No doubt it is a great ride, its just those damn MCBR's. All it does is kill the adrenaline! you launch, then inversions.....then...wtf? we stoppped? no...we are moving?! no way! I hate it. Though I did realize they added a new sound track in the station area, pretty sweet!

No doubt Top Gun is an excellent ride, people dont like it because its a short ride! Also depends on where you are sitting. Back gives airtime, but the front has awesome insane experiance.

 

As far as the getting credits and gone thing, well yea, if your on a trip and you want it to be a one day thing, then sure thats the thought.

 

And we will just have to wait and see how PKI deals with X-Flight. Lets just wait till it's built.

[jamesdillaman]

^ How bad it's gotten? It's still PKI's best ride by far. That's sad isn't it?

 

On another note, even I have never spent an entire day at PKI in it's current form. It's just too frustrating. I remember what Beast used to be, and even Racer. Heck, Vortex was a great ride. I miss the good log flume which they took out for Smash your manhood: The Ride. I miss the flying Eagles, easily one of the best rides in the park, which were shipped down to carowinds. Heck I even miss King Cobra, because tearing down a coaster for a flat ride and a pay-for attraction is crappy in my opinion. The car ride is gone, which used to be a great family attraction (always a line if you remember) and it was awesome when they had both sides running.... ah memories! Who can forget the monorail through the zoo? Perfect respite from the high heat of summer. Yes, PKI used to be a great park, one that I'd gladly spend all day in (being sure to eat at the Festhaus while watching the ice skating show to pass time, of course)! Now it's movie plugs everywhere, lackluster ride maintenence, and rude employees (especially the sweepers, don't EVER ask them a question). Cedar Fair has some good potential to work with, but it'll take a lot more than X-Flight to turn this park around. My biggest argument is the last thing this park needs is another average-ranking coaster. It has plenty. Staffing is bad as it is, and I agree with Joe that the funding should have been saved until they can put in something a tad more worthwhile. I'm hoping I won't go in there to see X-Flight plopped behind FoF with just a path to it. This is my fear. Say what you will about PKI (I sure do! ), I just think there are better things to do with the money than relocate X-Filght here. It still would have a better place in MiA.

 

-James Dillaman

[ginzo]

James, we should make some kind of event out of this argument. You and I can meet the fanboys at PKI on the day that they open the new ride, and we'll all ride it. If we like the installation, we'll admit to it. If we don't like it, then we'll certainly own up to that.

 

I just don't understand how anyone can think there is ANY case for putting this ride into PKI. I especially like how people who don't have to live with PKI as their home park have accused us of "flying off the handle". Someone went so far as to say a B&M "isn't cost effective". Uh-huh. Super popular, high capacity rides that almost NEVER break. What a bad investment!

 

The fact is the GP isn't nearly as dumb as enthusiasts would like to believe. Hypercoasters usually have the among the longest lines in any given park. The parks that invest in high quality attractions like Busch, Disney, and Universal totally destroy the lesser parks in attendance and thus profits.

[ParkTrips]

Can they really be worse than Paramount or Six Flags? Believe me, be glad KI is owned by CF now, it is definatly the lesser of the evils.

hey, there are some Six Flags parks that do a good job with their wood, and even Paramount had some well-maintained rides. ALL of the Cedar Fair woodies are going to hell if they aren't there already...

 

I agree this move sucks mainly because these rides blow in terms of reliability and capacity, and I can't believe its getting so much attention with other great rides being built this year.

 

I'm just pissed this will add 2 hours to my day when I visit PKI