Six Flags America (SFA) Discussion Thread

[ajfelice]

My two cents on the clone debate.

 

Six Flags knows something that many enthusiasts don't always realize at first. The know that the vast majority of the General Public do not know or ever care that their local park's coasters are clones of coaster in other parks because the vast majority of their GP doesn't go to other Six Flags amusement parks very often. Superman: Ride of Steel is the perfect example. Most GP who go to SFA as their local/regional park probably view S:RoS as one of their favorite rides ever, and they probably don't have a clue that S:RoS is a mirror copy in another park called Darien Lake or even know that there is such a place called Darien Lake. I'm not saying the GP is stupid, they just don't take the time to do the research and scrutinize every minor detail of a park like us enthusiasts do. As for the non-locals who are looking for fun things to do in the D.C./Baltimore area, they are likely going to consider SFA by seeing a 200ft signature ride that is S:RoS (they really don't care when it was built as 200ft is still big to them). Six Flags also lists in their annual report that Busch Gardens Williamsburg, Kings Dominion, and Hersheypark as their competition for SFA. The only coaster SFA has that is somewhat a clone of a competitor is Joker's Jinx, but GP are very unlikely to catch on that one is the outdoor version of the other, so SFA is providing a diverse option in their market. There is one asterisk I want to add about their competition. Two of those parks, HP and BGW are primarily destination parks, not local parks like SFA is. SFA does not have to be on the plush level as a destination park like those two are to be successful.

 

Enough with this debate that clones are a problem working against SFA and their business model. It's pretty obvious that SFA's problems probably lie more within the service aspects of cleanliness, up-time, guest service, and efficient operations, not the fact that their coasters aren't diverse from the rest of the Six Flags company.

 

And who is to say that this park is struggling financially as this thread and other threads have suggested? We only see the annual report for Six Flags as an overall company, not an itemized income statement from each park.

[Password121]

This is the last thing I'm going to stay on the topic, it's getting kind if old.

 

I DO NOT have a problem with SFA having clones, and it makes financial sense, and yes, SFA's lineup is diverse and unique for what is nearby. I also agree that the GP doesn't know and doesn't care that they're clones. Unless they've ridden it at another park, it shouldn't matter, and I don't think it does, in the context.

 

What I'm arguing is that with their current lineup, however diverse and unique it is (which it is), simply can't draw the attention/grab the headlines that KD does with with I-305, or BGW with their three hypers (Apollos Chariot, Griffon, and Alpengeist is only 5 feet under). Yes, the overwhelming majority of SFA visitors will have no idea they're clones, and that won't make a difference, and most will think Superman is a great coaster, which locally, it is.

 

For SFA to genuinely compete with these "local regionals," they're going to need not just something the others don't have like they do in Batwing, but something that can grab news headlines and make people want to visit the park, not just because they're in the area. This is what I-305 did. It does the exact same job as Superman, but it also grabs national attention that will make people go OUT OF THEIR WAY to ride it. And Superman will never do that.

 

Okay, that's all. If you want to continue with this friendly debate, feel free to PM me, I'd love to continue, but it's time to move on in the thread.

[bill_s]

One example of perceptions was KD ... they had so many more coasters than BGW, and yet it took I305 to make it actually clear they're a better coaster park, because it was too much a quantity vs. quality thing ... weird math. And making that clear was essential. But uniqueness is important too ... KD may be better but hitting BGW occasionally still expands your variety significantly. SFA also expands your variety in this region, but not as notably. Even though they can't become the first park of these 3 to go to, they need a little more that says you need to get there eventually. Or just make it more pleasant so it doesn't matter.

 

They're small, they need to make it an advantage. Make it less walking by opening connecting paths and fixing the layout, and also some form of shade or other way to cool off in the back other than buying a drink or standing in line for a wet ride.

 

A good new attraction might be a unique launcher, e.g. Kennywood's Sky Rocket... something full circuit with a spike.

 

If I had to trade a ride, Batwing. Despite is uniqueness, I think they would have been better off in the long run with a more basic fun, reridable coaster. Mind Eraser just needs new wheels more often, so it doesn't get so loose on the track. I don't know if it would be practical to RMC-inversion Roar. I thought Roar was one the best in this region when it was fresh and new, but it's never been that big a draw to the masses.

[coasterbill]

I really don't see the chain dumping any real money into this park because the attendance probably won't ever give them a return on their investment. Obviously I don't have access to their attendance figures but based on my visits and other people's trip reports it seems like the single reason this park is still in business is Hurricane Harbor as that's always where the majority of the park's guests are.

 

From a business standpoint, why would it make any sense to dump money into the park itself? All they need to do is add occasional upgrades to Hurricane Harbor which are much less expensive than large theme park rides and occasionally add flat rides or cheap / relocated coasters to the park itself.

 

The only reason they'd invest in the park is because they think it could be a major player in the region and they're willing to take a risk. While they tried this for awhile with major investments like Batwing and Superman I think at this point it's clear to them that it's not worth the investment which is probably why they've stopped adding expensive rides.

[Dr. M]

I think the clones aren't really the problem. I think its more of the fact that they're just thrown in the middle of a field.

 

This this this this this.

 

The fact that all their rides are clones/relocated doesn't help because it means none of the rides can interact with the landscape, or make any sense at all given their location. Superman is a great example, randomly l-shaped, flat stretches of track that could be bunny hops, etc. Each ride is confined to its own little box and that's it, it adds to the "parking lot of coasters" effect.

 

But is that the park's primary problem? No no no a million times no, the primary problem is all the ones I listed in my original post so I won't bother repeating them.

[alilstronger]

My two cents on the clone debate.

 

Six Flags knows something that many enthusiasts don't always realize at first. The know that the vast majority of the General Public do not know or ever care that their local park's coasters are clones of coaster in other parks because the vast majority of their GP doesn't go to other Six Flags amusement parks very often. Superman: Ride of Steel is the perfect example. Most GP who go to SFA as their local/regional park probably view S:RoS as one of their favorite rides ever, and they probably don't have a clue that S:RoS is a mirror copy in another park called Darien Lake or even know that there is such a place called Darien Lake. I'm not saying the GP is stupid, they just don't take the time to do the research and scrutinize every minor detail of a park like us enthusiasts do. As for the non-locals who are looking for fun things to do in the D.C./Baltimore area, they are likely going to consider SFA by seeing a 200ft signature ride that is S:RoS (they really don't care when it was built as 200ft is still big to them). Six Flags also lists in their annual report that Busch Gardens Williamsburg, Kings Dominion, and Hersheypark as their competition for SFA. The only coaster SFA has that is somewhat a clone of a competitor is Joker's Jinx, but GP are very unlikely to catch on that one is the outdoor version of the other, so SFA is providing a diverse option in their market. There is one asterisk I want to add about their competition. Two of those parks, HP and BGW are primarily destination parks, not local parks like SFA is. SFA does not have to be on the plush level as a destination park like those two are to be successful.

 

Enough with this debate that clones are a problem working against SFA and their business model. It's pretty obvious that SFA's problems probably lie more within the service aspects of cleanliness, up-time, guest service, and efficient operations, not the fact that their coasters aren't diverse from the rest of the Six Flags company.

 

And who is to say that this park is struggling financially as this thread and other threads have suggested? We only see the annual report for Six Flags as an overall company, not an itemized income statement from each park.

 

THIS!

 

This park is never going to SF Great Adventure or even SFMM and the chain knows that now. They will keep shuffling things around at their less money making parks and keep investing in their parks that makes money. Its really that simple.

[Password121]

^I don't think they're trying o be SFGadv or SFMM. I think they're trying to improve the park and coaster/flat collection to attract more people to the park to be at least in the same category as Kings Dominion. Neither park, as it was mentioned, is a destination where visitors stay for multiple days at a time like Cedar Point or Busch Gardens. However, I don't think they're still in equal categories. Kings Dominion attracts regional attention, and people go out of their way to Kings Dominion, specifically for I-305. This is not true for SFA, and although Superman is their headliner coaster, it and the park are not in the same category as I-305 and Kings Dominion.

[Dr. M]

 

THIS!

 

This park is never going to SF Great Adventure or even SFMM and the chain knows that now. They will keep shuffling things around at their less money making parks and keep investing in their parks that makes money. Its really that simple.

 

Just because the park doesn't get a lot of money invested in it doesn't mean it can't be a pleasant place to visit though.

[Password121]

 

THIS!

 

This park is never going to SF Great Adventure or even SFMM and the chain knows that now. They will keep shuffling things around at their less money making parks and keep investing in their parks that makes money. Its really that simple.

 

Just because the park doesn't get a lot of money invested in it doesn't mean it can't be a pleasant place to visit though.

 

Thank you! I think SFA is a once-neglected park that is absolutely, 100% heading in the right direction. If management continues to add relocated coasters and flats that like they are doing now, SFA will greatly improve. I just don't think they will be competitive with parks like KD until other, more pressing issues are fixed. This starts with managements attitude towards operations, as well as other internal improvements that don't include coaster collection. I've mentioned my take on the coasters numerous times.

[CPSFMMCW]

^I don't think they're trying o be SFGadv or SFMM. I think they're trying to improve the park and coaster/flat collection to attract more people to the park to be at least in the same category as Kings Dominion. Neither park, as it was mentioned, is a destination where visitors stay for multiple days at a time like Cedar Point or Busch Gardens. However, I don't think they're still in equal categories. Kings Dominion attracts regional attention, and people go out of their way to Kings Dominion, specifically for I-305. This is not true for SFA, and although Superman is their headliner coaster, it and the park are not in the same category as I-305 and Kings Dominion.

Have you been to Busch Gardens? You don't need to spend more than one day there! Its never crowded! I'd rank KD and BGW in the same category. SFA would be in the category below.

[Password121]

^I don't think they're trying o be SFGadv or SFMM. I think they're trying to improve the park and coaster/flat collection to attract more people to the park to be at least in the same category as Kings Dominion. Neither park, as it was mentioned, is a destination where visitors stay for multiple days at a time like Cedar Point or Busch Gardens. However, I don't think they're still in equal categories. Kings Dominion attracts regional attention, and people go out of their way to Kings Dominion, specifically for I-305. This is not true for SFA, and although Superman is their headliner coaster, it and the park are not in the same category as I-305 and Kings Dominion.

Have you been to Busch Gardens? You don't need to spend more than one day there! Its never crowded! I'd rank KD and BGW in the same category. SFA would be in the category below.

I have, I was being kind of vague in that example, but the point is the same. Many families go to Busch Gardens and spend other days in colonial Williamsburg. In terms if coasters, it is on a similar level to KD.

[Schrecken]

I really don't see the chain dumping any real money into this park because the attendance probably won't ever give them a return on their investment. Obviously I don't have access to their attendance figures but based on my visits and other people's trip reports it seems like the single reason this park is still in business is Hurricane Harbor as that's always where the majority of the park's guests are.

 

From a business standpoint, why would it make any sense to dump money into the park itself? All they need to do is add occasional upgrades to Hurricane Harbor which are much less expensive than large theme park rides and occasionally add flat rides or cheap / relocated coasters to the park itself.

 

The only reason they'd invest in the park is because they think it could be a major player in the region and they're willing to take a risk. While they tried this for awhile with major investments like Batwing and Superman I think at this point it's clear to them that it's not worth the investment which is probably why they've stopped adding expensive rides.

 

I totally agree with you about the waterpark - that is, IMO, what "carries" SFA each season. SFA is kind of like a restaurant with a bar in it where, if the bar closed up, the restaurant wouldn't be able to stand on its own and stay in business. If SFA had no water park it probably would never have survived even in its pre-SF Adventure World days IMO.

 

That said, I do think that getting a NEW (meaning totally new, not a hand-me-down from another park that is of a coaster type that has been around for ages) coaster or even a major flat would go a long way as far as changing the non-GP perception of this park. But I bet that even a lot of the GP (those who actually visit the dry side of the park and enjoy riding the coasters) probably have some idea that a stand-up isn't a new kind of coaster, and of course wild mice have been around for ages so nothing new there. The other thing is that yes, this is a local park, but the DC area itself is a major tourist attraction so they would stand to draw people from all over the country (and world) who visit DC. Sort of like Cedar Point - that whole area (the shoreline of lake Erie) is an attraction in and of itself so it naturally draws people even if the park didn't exist.

[alilstronger]

 

THIS!

 

This park is never going to SF Great Adventure or even SFMM and the chain knows that now. They will keep shuffling things around at their less money making parks and keep investing in their parks that makes money. Its really that simple.

 

Just because the park doesn't get a lot of money invested in it doesn't mean it can't be a pleasant place to visit though.

 

I never said that. I LOVE this park and will miss living near it now that I live in TX. I used to be friends with management at the park and they know it will more then likely never get treated like Great Adventure does with getting new one of a kind rides.

[Dr. M]

^What do you love about it? Love is a pretty strong word.

[larrygator]

^When Two Face was there and S:ROS along with Roar were running better (about 7-8 years ago) I considered their line-up better than average. Two Face, S:ROS, Wild One, Joker's Jinx and Roar made for a nice collection. And I'm not even including Batman in the mix, since i was never a fan, but the GP used to love it. However, 7-8 years ago the operations were the worst on the planet.

[alilstronger]

^What do you love about it? Love is a pretty strong word.

 

I love that its quaint and its usually not very crowded. Also I actually really like every coaster there. Roar is awesome in the back in my opinion - but than again I like rough wooden coasters. Mind Eraser is just fun - I like SLC's (not all of them because some are really rough - I like the layout). The park is clean (now) and the staff has gotten better over the years. They have a decent water park but nothing spectacular. I miss Two Face and Iron Eagle and wish they were still there. I also liked how close I lived to the park when I lived in MD. Now the closest Six Flags is 2.5 hours away.

[Dr. M]

^Having it as your home park certainly gives you a different perspective in it, versus me who had to drive four hours to get there. I probably "love" Dorney more than most non-PA residents despite my frustrations with it.

 

The only thing I'd like to make clear is I don't *really* have a problem with SFA's coaster line-up, and I am NOT comparing it to SFGAdv in any way, shape, or form. My main problem with it comes from the landscaping, the theming, and the overall vibe and atmosphere, all things that have very little to due with the size of their budget. I can see how it has potential, and can believe it may even be better now than when I went a couple years ago.

 

Not that I'm planning on ever going again to see for myself, of course. Unless I get another friend with a season pass who can get me in for free.

[alilstronger]

^ I LOVE Dorney! They have the best in park free water park I have ever been to. And Talon is such a good coaster. They also have an excellent river rapids ride, best one in my opinion since Hershey took theirs out.

[YoshiFan]

I agree with that, WWK is really a great waterpark for being included with admission to the amusement park. Also very rarely having any lines also is nice knowing that you can go almost anytime and never wait more than 5 - 10 minutes for a coaster.

[coasterbill]

Mind Eraser is just fun

 

Well I have to admit, that's not something I ever thought I'd hear.

[Password121]

Hey everyone- I got an SFA season pass this year, an was planning on going opening day. I noticed that SFA hasn't put up the being a friend tickes on their website, even though they were there a few months ago. When can I expect these to be posted? There's only 3 weeks til opening! Also, I went last October to Saturday FF and about half the coasters ran 1 train. Will this be the case on opening, or worse? Also, are opening day crowds generally better or worse than spring break crowds? Thanks

[Dr. M]

Mind Eraser is just fun

 

Well I have to admit, that's not something I ever thought I'd hear.

 

Yeah, at the time I didn't even know what an SLC was, and I thought maybe the name "Mind Eraser" was too literal. Having your head banged around so much you have memory blackouts. Definitely never again.

[CoasterLover]

Looks like they are repainting the Ragin' Cajun cars right down to the fine details! Looks pretty good! (More images of the painting process at the link http://baynumpainting.wordpress.com/2014/03/27/painting-the-ride-cars-for-ragin-cajun-at-six-flags-america/)

[Password121]

I gotta say, I'm impressed. I didn't expect SF management to want to invest much at all in this relocation. SFA has really been cleaning up the past few years- Superman, Batwing, and now Jokers Jinx, Falling Star, and Ragin Cajun have all been repainted quite recently.

Edit: Of course, can't forget Apocalypse!

[CoasterLover]

Technically, EVERY steel coaster currently at Six Flags America was repainted within the last 10 years (most within the past five years). Mind Eraser lead the way with a completely new color scheme in 2005 and that paint job seems to be holding up pretty well. Joker's Jinx is also receiving some new paint this year, but it seems like this is more of a touch-up (the whole ride was primed and re-painted completely about four or five years ago). Most of the flat rides and many of the buildings around the park have also seen fresh paint.