neil009

I'm going Thursday as well. Although many people on here may tell you to head straight to Laff Trakk, personally I'm bringing a friend who's never been before so I've decided to hit Fahrenheit first as usual because it's a more exciting "starter ride". Then we'll book it to Laff Trakk from there. I figure since the vast, vast majority of people start the park in the area closer to the entrance and then gradually make their way from there, we'll still be ahead of the crowds this way. Here's hoping I'm right because I sure as hell don't want to wait an hour for an indoor spinning coaster. I made the mistake of not hitting Laff Trakk early in the day when I went this past Wednesday. When I finally got in line, it was at least an hour wait, if not longer. What time was that though? If we still get in line like within 30-45 minutes of park opening, do you think it could be that bad already? I'm trying to imagine NOT starting a day at Hershey with a couple of spins in the back row being yanked over and around that beyond vertical drop, and it just doesn't seem right.

I'm going Thursday as well. Although many people on here may tell you to head straight to Laff Trakk, personally I'm bringing a friend who's never been before so I've decided to hit Fahrenheit first as usual because it's a more exciting "starter ride". Then we'll book it to Laff Trakk from there. I figure since the vast, vast majority of people start the park in the area closer to the entrance and then gradually make their way from there, we'll still be ahead of the crowds this way. Here's hoping I'm right because I sure as hell don't want to wait an hour for an indoor spinning coaster.

You know a park has really drilled professionalism into their employees when you hear them dissing the park's new ride in front of guests.

I don't want to sound like I'm trying too hard to defend LC before I get out there and ride it for myself, but isn't it safe to say that every top ten woodie save maybe Phoenix and the Intamins have been through their share of rough patches?

I find it hard to believe it went from "amazing" last year when I rode it to "terrible" this year. I can stand a rough ride as long as it's still moving at a good speed.

I want a ride with a long out-and-back layout like the Voyage, that starts with two camelbacks as powerful as the ones on El Toro, then goes into laterals as sustained and heavy as the Legend mixed with a couple super-whippy inversions, with a row of four crazy bunny hops for a finale. Perfect.

^^Are we thinking of the same Kingda Ka? -1G is the equivalent of being hung upside down. There's no way you wouldn't feel that.

Is it really that serious? Not everyone is going to like what CP is doing and they don't have to. Everyone has an opinion and that's what makes discussions interesting. If everyone was in agreement with everything, it'd be really boring. Yes it can be. You must understand that "we" as in "us enthusiasts" make up about 1% of the general public of paying customers. We're also less likely to spend tons of money because we know the tricks and how to plan a day perfectly to enjoy the attractions. When you hear the horror stories of CoasterMania, or West Coast Bash, or any other events at how rude the people will act towards employees and park managers who are doing something they don't have to do, yes it's frustrating! With that being said, what I stated goes for any park, not just Cedar Point. We very rarely will get what we all will agree on as a "great coaster". Meaning most complaints I ever see about new rides are it's force-less, it's not fast enough, it's not jerky enough. Stuff that the GP typically doesn't like. I visited King's Dominion for the first time this past Saturday because I'd never ridden I-305. I thought it was great and enjoyed it. I still like Millennium Force more, this ride was supposed to rake in the crowds, on a busy Saturday afternoon I waited 10 minutes for front seat and no wait for any other seat. Being from so far away I asked what gives? Everyone said the same thing, it's a one and done because of the forces and Maverick style twisty's. We can all handle it and ride all day for the most part, but the majority of the 99% can't. So therefore, will I'm not a liberal and love everyone's opinion, generally these opinions aren't opinions, they are just general moaning and bellyaching. An opinion about a roller coaster isn't the typical "it's force-less" and so on and so forth, we all know what you're gonna say. The only different opinion that's been stated in this particular conversation is the fact CP has rides similar, but then someone else addressed this with Wicked Twister and Raptor. It's just a different trick even if it's one trick pony, and it's a new pony that CP will make millions on the 99%...not the 1%. I've ran into way too many entitled "enthusiasts" and I only hope for the opinions to remain opinions, not bitching. So if you choose to not go and spend money to ride it because you think it won't be that good, then that's fine! I just think it's then silly to call yourself an "enthusiast" as enthusiasts are supposed to enjoy the hobby of roller coasters and thrill rides. It likely will be another CP style record breaker and all that's here is mostly negativity. Thahere my point came from. This is called an ad hominem attack. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem). You disagree with myself and a few others about the new ride, but instead of simply arguing why you think it's a good addition to the park, you conflate our negative opinions with the kind of asshole behavior you see at enthusiast events and declare us all to be "entitled". In reality you've never met me and don't know anything about my general attitude or behavior, and of course my opinion is just that, an opinion, like any other. Turning my opinion into "moaning and bellyaching" is an attack on my character, which is uncalled for and not constructive to the conversation. I love Cedar Point. I love dive coasters. I just happen to love other coasters more. It's all good! It's all love, man. But seriously, how can you visit so many different parks and NOT have an opinion on what would be a good addition, versus what would be an even better addition? Do you really just go from park to park never thinking about what you like, and what you'd like to see more of, versus what you don't like as well? Sounds awfully boring.

It would be awesome to see RMC redo Mean Streak, the only problem is they STILL wouldn't have an awesome wooden coaster. Iron horse coasters are steel. For me it would be even more awesome to see the Gravity Group get into the renovation game and completely change Mean Streak's layout. Make it faster and lower to the ground, add some heavy laterals, and (most importantly) keep it a traditionally tracked wooden coaster. Competition got them into building inversions, so I would say anything is possible.

Well, before I say anything else I'd point out that your fatal mistake was not spending your last day at Kings Dominion and riding I305, which would have put everything else you rode that trip to bed without supper. Unless you've already been there and don't really like I305. I know those people exist, the same way I know scientologists and other people with strange ideas exist. Anyway, one thing I learned the hard way this year is coaster riding is completely subjective. You could be riding the greatest coaster in the world, I mean literally, it could be a collaboration between Stengel, Schilke, and Schmeck with solid gold trains crafted by the Buddha himself, and still not fully enjoy it if your head isn't in the right place. It could be what else you rode that day, how tired you are, who you're riding with, anything. Case in point, when I rode the Voyage for the first time this year at HWN, instead of just sitting back and enjoying the ride, I couldn't stop thinking about how it wasn't as intense as I expected, and how it really wasn't that different from Raven or Legend, and how the brake in the middle really broke up the pacing. It didn't help that everyone kept talking about how much the brake changed the ride. So here I was riding a top 5 woodie and I was hardly even able to enjoy it. If I'd been coming to the ride cold, and not having just come off of Raven and Legend, I'm sure the story would've been completely different.

For all we know they could be the worst-tracking trains in roller coaster history, even with the previous example set by Arkham Asylum Shock Therapy. Just because there's no head banging doesn't mean that the train will run glass smooth. I'd rather have a little bit of head banging than a constant vibration. Thunderbolt at Coney Island taught me you don't need OTSR to have headbanging.

Dive coasters are the very definition of a gimmicky ride. That's the whole problem. The drop is the ride, basically. Everything else is superfluous. It's not the kind of real substantial ride with multiple "wow" moments that will become a classic. And yes, I have ridden Griffon. It's a fine ride. Smooth, and the first drop is fun. And I'll probably enjoy the new ride more than I enjoyed Gatekeeper (not that that's saying much). My only point is that this being Cedar Point, they really could do better. They need a great wooden coaster. A flying coaster would be more unique than a dive coaster, although I'm not going to wish for that because I hate B&M flying coasters. (Except, wait, didn't they build one in China recently that looks amazing? Dammit, why couldn't CP order one of those?) EDIT: This. This is exactly what they should've built. I wouldn't even mind that it's a clone.

Couldn't this be said of all of B&M's coasters/ride styles? I think it's clear B&M is going to be their choice of manufacturer regardless of what the ride ends up being, I'm just slightly disappointed B&M hasn't come up with any other new and exciting concepts for one of their biggest clients since the wing coasters. "OK B&M, it's time for a new ride. What else ya got?" "Well, these dive coasters used to be a big deal." "Sure, I'll take it, just make sure it's the tallest one you've built so far."

Sorry, I meant no airtime after the first drop. Also I personally don't see why a holding brake makes that much difference... Dive coasters also tend to have short layouts. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this is due to the short, wide trains losing speed very quickly. This is a limitation of a ride engineered to do one thing and one thing only, make the most of a vertical drop. Which, like I said, CP already has. I don't think pointing that out makes me jaded, I'm only comparing the ride style to CP's own lineup, not some park 500 miles away.

The only claim to fame dive coasters ever had was the vertical drop. Vertical drops are now common elements on rides of all sizes, Cedar Point itself now has two coasters with vertical drops and one with a beyond-vertical drop. What's the point? Gatekeeper flips upsidedown 170 ft in the air before dropping. How would a plain old 90° drop improve on this? It would be like building SooperDooperLooper today and hyping up the fact that it has a vertical loop. A dive coaster's train style means no whip in the back. It also means most likely yet another coaster with no airtime to speak of. I'm hoping B&M has come up with a new twist for this ride style, like they had for the inverted coaster with Banshee, or else B&M and Cedar Point are both going to look like they're seriously falling behind in terms of innovation.

Get two wristbands, one for each wrist.

Haha we ran into that. We stayed at the Jasper Inn (dingy but cheap and clean) which is in eastern, and the airport is also in eastern, it's like Holiday World is just floating in this magical place where you always have an hour more than you think you do. We were so tired Saturday night we didn't even notice the time change back when we checked in. Hey, while I'm posting in this thread: Dear Holiday World, Please run the Voyage breakless at Holiwood Nights 2016, even if it's only for an hour or so. Love, Neil009

Even if they change the name and paint it red again, I don't see the old trains coming back because of the restraint issue, and if the trains stay the same then the ride won't be any better.

You say this, but earlier you post Why should HW be worried then, if competition is a good thing? At the end of the day, KK is not going to affect HW in the slightest. HW is still a far more beautiful park and a lot more family friendly IMO. KK seemed very ghetto my last visit. I'm sure they'll work on that though. It's a good thing from our perspective. Increased competition would be a big motivating factor behind decisions, like, say, getting RMC to come in and put inversions on your old out-of-service woodie. Ultimately it's the costumer who wins. I don't know how you can say HW won't be affected by a park of similar size 1 hour away. Of course they will. Not negatively necessarily, I'm not saying HW is going to have any real attendance problems, but you can bet KK has factored into any future plans they've made. The park doesn't look "ghetto" this year, at all. Yeah the outer fence is lined with razor wire, but once inside, I saw no trash, no graffiti, no rust. Just a perfectly normal, nice midsize park. Not saying this applies to you at all, but there's some inner-city bias at work when it comes to people's opinions regarding KK. For some people out there, where a park falls on the scale from "ghetto" to "family friendly" primarily has to do with how many white people they see.

^They'll both do fine, healthy competition is a good thing. Capitalism. This only applies to enthusiasts, at least as far as non-locals are concerned. Very few families are going to make a day for both. KK has a distinct advantage being so close to the airport.

^People who are used to being in the city aren't going to mind the fact that it's in the city. I thought certain areas of KK were perfectly charming despite the location. I'm sure they're giving Holiday World plenty to worry about. Once they open T3 and TT they'll have four major coasters same as HW, plus a nicely sized waterpark. Regardless of which we as enthusiasts personally prefer, of course they're going to be closely competing.

If SFGAdv got a wing coaster it would most likely be an X Flight clone. Why spend money on a new layout?

^Is Smiler really that overwhelmingly popular? I haven't been keeping up but I never thought the layout looked that good, nothing but inversion after inversion. Is it really that good a ride?

Doesn't the audio system add an insane amount of weight to the trains, even with the one row of seats removed? What I always assumed was that it's not just the weight of the speakers, but where that weight is placed. They make the trains very top-heavy, all that extra weight is as far above the track as possible. Any vibration from the track travels up through the seats to this massive counterweight at the top. Think about leverage, doesn't it make sense that that would be a huge part of why the trains rattle around so much? Regardless, all of the added vibration equals lost energy as the train goes through the course, meaning a slower ride. Personally I would think that would make a bigger difference than increased drag, though both may have an effect.

^I'm just wondering if that's actually true. I figured steel support beams in this case, being assembled in a manor similar to wood, would behave similarly to the way wood behaves, just with the added benefit of being more durable. I doubt, regardless of the material involved, that you can do what RMC does without ending up with something that looks at least a little bit like a clusterf*ck. I guess we'd just have to wait and see.