neil009

^^I grew up riding Steel Force, I'm sure I have more rides on it than any other coaster. I've ridden in every row, all over the place, multiple times. I don't feel any difference in airtime between front and back outside the double up and *maybe* the rise immediately before the helix, but there isn't much air there regardless. Hey while we're on the subject, I wanted to point out it's recently dawned on me that on some days I actually like Steel Force more than Nitro. I'm a laterals fan, and SF has that spot after the helix and before the MCBR where you get a nice jab to the right, whereas Nitro is nothing but vertical force. Quirks like that make SF feel slightly more "out of control". Also I like the helix so much more than Nitro's turnaround, no contest. Plus it feels taller as you're going up the lift because of the view of the park and the bulkier support structure. What really sets it for me though is the train. I just love the boxy roomy train with a lap bar that doesn't even touch your lap. Nitro is more open but you spend the whole ride pinned to your seat. I love Nitro, and when I ride it my brain tells me it SHOULD be the better ride, but when I'm riding SF on a cool summer evening with a breeze in the air... I dunno, there's just something about it.

The back row on Steel Force is great. I don't really get all the love for the front seat. I'd say the only place it really makes a difference as far as airtime is the double-up at the end, and like every other coaster in existence the front gives you that weird push-pull feeling over the hills because you're decelerating going downhill as opposed to uphill, it just doesn't feel right. The back is where it's at. Think about it, assuming the train is evenly loaded, then on symmetrical bunny hops like on the return run, obviously the amount of airtime in the very front will be exactly the same as the very back, because science!

"Ride the edge" gets a resounding "meh" from me, because I never take the winged seat by choice. Also, am I the only one around here that thinks Wildcat is at the very least "okay"? Hey, Wildcat is VERY ok. I didn't mean to imply it wasn't. I like it better than Lightning Racer! But that's because honestly, none of the woodies at Hershey are that great. Lightning Racer is the better family ride, and Wildcat is sitting on prime real estate. (I do like Lightning Racer. But compared to the woodies at Knoebels, and, well, a lot of other woodies at a lot of other parks, it's just not that exciting to me.)

Hey man, you said it, not us. It's not just you, of course. Inner city parks like Kentucky Kingdom often get criticized for the quality of the clientele that's implicitly a mixture of racism (these people are too black/latino), and classicism (these people are too poor). So I applaud you for at least having the balls to say how you really feel. Funny thing is I never expected to see this directed at Dorney, which sits in dopey podunk Allentown PA and gets a clientele about as diverse as, I don't know, every other park on the east coast? I guess it's because amusement parks are one of the last places where privileged suburbanites are forced to intermingle with the "rough inner city crowd", but the biggest irony is the worst crowds I've ever seen are those days in the spring when school is still in session and the park is filled with obnoxious unsupervised teens and tweens on field trips who, surprise surprise, mostly come from rich suburban school districts where all the parents who complain about the inner city live.

Just wanted to say after several pages of people pointing out the obvious (that a free spin would be a pretty lame addition), that when I pointed out the same thing months ago I caught heat for it and it started a big argument. Where were all of you then?

Skyrush doesn't break any records or has anything marketable except for its seating arrangement, and yet here we are. "Largest wooden roller coaster we've ever built" is enough. Heck, you might even be able to play the "largest / best / fastest / etc wooden coaster in Pennsylvania" card. The seating arrangement was a BIG selling point, in fact it's still the only one in the entire world where you can choose a wing seat or not. "Ride the edge". Marketing departments love crap like that. Hershey can't build the biggest rides but every ride since Stormrunner has had a unique and/or "world's first" selling point. Intamin woodies are the most expensive kind of wood coaster out there, they'd need something that's at least a first for the area (that area includes SFGA). But I mean, I still think its possible. I'm sure Intamin could come up with some new spin on it for one of their best costumers. I know I've defended Wildcat in the past, and I still like it, but honestly, it's time for it to go. It's too rough, and the layout just isn't that great. It's time for something better to take its place, preferably something wooden. And made by Intamin. Call it Wildcat's Revenge.

What's ironic about this post is it comes off *EXACTLY* like a self-entitled obnoxious coaster enthusiast who thinks they know better than the park or the people who built the ride. "HW should just put it back the way it was..." "It's incredibly disappointing..." *sigh*[attachment=0]Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg[/attachment] I have to be honest, I didn't think my ride on The Voyage this year was much different than the rides I took on it in 2006. And if *I* don't notice a difference, I highly doubt that 99.9% of the people who walk through the ride's turnstiles every day notice either. Some of you are going to notice if someone farts differently on the ride, and IMO, that's just not the type of person that the park should be catering to, sorry. Sorry, I really am trying my hardest not to come off that way. I guess it's harder for me than I thought. I'm definitely not trying to say I know better than the people at HW, or that the change is going to hurt their business any. Who's more likely to notice a change in something, someone who's just trying to get through their single obligatory ride of the year, or someone who loved it the way it was? This applies to the general public as well. Holiday World still mostly pulls locals, i.e. people who've probably been to the park before and probably ridden the Voyage before, and their reactions will mirror ours, those who liked it how it was will notice, those who don't like it will either not notice or feel its improved. I would guess the former are in the minority (probably greater than .1% though), but just how "subtle" the changes are is completely subjective. If you've got a Matisse hanging on your wall that you look at six times a day and love with all your heart, a single brushstroke out of place could completely ruin it for you. Personally I was a first-timer this year, and I can still say I definitely didn't get the experience I was anticipating. By the end of the ride the final few turns are supposed to be more neck-snapping than anything else that's happened up to that point, but since the ride is reset back to 0 MPH at the midcourse, the intensity level remains on par with the spaghetti bowl the whole way through, which completely changes the narrative of the ride. I'm not contesting that. The ride has gone through many changes, I totally understand, it's basically always a work in progress. When I say it's not running the way it was designed, I'm referring to things like the lack of airtime on the triple down, and feeling gravity pulling you to the side during the final 90 degree turn (rather than staying plastered to your seat). Indications the ride is running slower than the designers intended. I know you're aware of all this, not trying to say I know more than you or anything. The last time the break was used, it was only for one season, so I'm hopeful the experts at Holiday World have other solutions planned. Also, it's worth pointing out that the vast majority of traditional wooden coasters out there that aren't brand new are running slower than intended, so it's not some revelatory or unheard-of thing. Some never ran exactly how the designers intended. But a lot of people (enthusiasts) hold Holiday World to a higher standard, and I'd be the first to admit that it may not be realistic or fair.

Sitting on a break run for 10 minutes will give you a different perspective on almost any restraint in existence...

I think HW should just put the ride back the way it was so we never have to have this discussion again. I mean the ride was designed to run a certain way, it was legendary and the person who helped design it was also a legend, and now it's no longer running the way it was designed. It's incredibly disappointing, it just is. I agree you don't need to be a dick about it but I don't think everyone who feels this way is "entitled".

Cut the layout in half and that's about what you'd get. Which would essentially be Outlaw Run, so still a big win! More like Goliath. Don't get me wrong, that would still be amazing and infinitely better than any of the other possibilities. In fact, I'd be perfectly satisfied with an exact clone of Goliath (that's probably like ten feet taller so they'd break the record again).

Does anyone know why this ride is following so closely after Gatekeeper? Just curious. The last two coasters were six years apart, before that they were four years apart. Now these two are only three years apart.

I feel like of any US park, Hershey would be the most likely to get an Intamin woodie. That would be great and all, but it's still unlikely because with RMC snatching up all the records there isn't much they could market it by. Intamin made it clear they won't do inversions on wood coasters, and I doubt they could go for steepest drop. I don't see how it would be worth the expense.

^^I appreciate your carefully considered response. As a side note, I find it interesting where people choose to use the asterisk when censoring the word "fucking". "F*cking", "fu*king", I wonder what determines that. "Fuc*ing" just looks weird, as does "*ucking". "Fuck*ng" just doesn't have any point to it.

Cut the layout in half and that's about what you'd get.

So it's a dive machine, and because of that the layout was always going to be lame, and it is, but that said, I originally stated what could save it is some cool weird lateral force like on Thunderbird, and the element after the dive loop looks like it could at least potentially deliver on that. And hopefully the airtime hill is of the actual airtime-producing variety and not the total waste-of-track, space, time, and money variety like on some other *ahem* recent B&M installations that shall remain nameless. If so, this could easily be the best dive machine so far. Of course, it's still a dive machine. I'm trying to look at this from twelve-year-old me's perspective, assuming I'm a Cedar Point native, have no enthusiast knowledge, and have just come off the elation of riding Gatekeeper for the first time only a few years ago. I know a lot of people on here would go, "Hey, to the GP this is just the next amazing CP coaster, they'll eat it right up", but ehhhh, sorry, 12-year-old me is still not convinced. See, when Gatekeeper opened, that wingover drop straight-up blew my mind. Seriously, it was the most intense, fear-inducing first drop I could even imagine. So now it's the next episode, the new ride is coming, and I'm looking for something that's going to top the last coaster. I'm looking for something that's going to be at least different, if not better. But I'm having trouble. The trains, well, they're real wide, they don't look that different. Most of the ride doesn't look that different from Gatekeeper. The main difference is that drop. 12-year-old me thinks it looks cool... it really does... but... not as cool as Gatekeeper's. I'm trying to be excited, but it's feeling a little forced. Now I'm sure 12-year-old me would ride it, come off stoked as hell, and declare it the best ride in the park. But the point stands. At least they could maximize that initial visual of staring down the first drop the way Alton Towers did, by putting something at the bottom, or maybe some structures alongside it to give you more perspective on how high up you are, but you know darn well you won't be looking at anything besides the pullout, rocks, concrete, and perhaps a neatly manicured lawn. And by the way, has the CP ride naming committee lost its f*cking mind? This isn't Busch Gardens, we're not looking for bizarre vaguely-ethnic names you can't pronounce. We're looking for short snappy names that quickly evoke some semblance of a theme, and that's it. Maverick. Now there's a name. C'mon guys, get it together. I'm really curious where we go from here. Next CP will probably get a flying coaster, right? Because that's the only B&M product they don't have? And it will probably be the tallest one, and maybe with a pretzel loop even crazier than Tatsu's. That could be pretty good. But then what? I guess by that time B&M will have come up with yet another train style. Or maybe the pendulum will finally have swung back over to something more interesting like Intamin or RMC. Or Zamperla. Seriously, anything but B&freakinM. EDIT: I looked at the Cedar Point timeline and was reminded we went a whole six years between Maverick and Gatekeeper. While I can't know the reasoning behind it, I'd say this new installation is a mistake. I'd much rather they have spent another couple years on other improvements and additions to make the Point a more complete experience, with emphasis on more than just coasters. Instead we get this very uninspired addition so close to their last coaster which, like I pointed out, isn't even that different. I'd rather they spent time working on something that would really knock your socks off. This whole addition just feels so oddly timed and so rote, when parks like Dorney go completely neglected.

Did you read what I wrote? It's not saying anything, it's gibberish. Paula was not trying to start a new round of speculation, she was just pointing out that she THOUGHT we would take something as a clue when we didn't.

I've got to admit... I think Maverick's twists are even more abrupt and insane. I think I'm in the minority but I305 to me seems like a bigger but tamer Maverick. Yes I305 is amazing, yes it had the grey out turn, but to me Maverick feels more out of control and I almost feel like it beats I305 at it's own game. Weird, I didn't even think there was any comparison. Maverick's opening switchbacks did nothing for me (except bang my neck around), while I305's twists felt like they were trying to eject me from the train. I wonder how I would feel now that the restraints are the same.

I see in the picture what you mean about the seats extending out a bit. I can totally see it working great on any ride EXCEPT I305. The twists on I305 are kind of on another level altogether. Even having my hands up versus holding onto the grab bar, I felt like I was coming dangerously close to wrenching my back. It was the only ride I've ever ridden with restrictive OTSR restraints that I actually felt were necessary.

I haven't ridden every drop tower out there but the general consensus seems to be that there are only two types that offer you a true sensation of free fall, Intamin first gens, and Larson/ARM towers like Stratosfear. As to what makes it so frightening, my guess is it's the suddenness of the acceleration, which perfectly mimics true free fall, because it is. Your inner ear is very smart and knows EXACTLY what the rate of acceleration due to gravity feels like. That specific rate of acceleration is what flicks your brain into "panic" mode, because back when we were all sleeping in trees, that specific sensation was what meant you're about to splat on the ground. So if there's any drag on the car at all during those initial milliseconds of free fall like there is on most drop towers, or if you're yanked down faster than the speed of gravity like on Tower of Terror, your brain doesn't flick into "danger" mode because it doesn't feel "real". Larson/ARM towers feel real, and you continue accelerating exactly in accordance with gravity right up until you hit the brakes. On any other tower the drop is never as bad as the anticipation, on Stratosfear it's every bit as bad, if not worse.

My mistake, someone said "Ispeed clone" which it's definitely not. Looks to be more on the intensity level of Storm Runner.

Hahaha, that's funny. When was the last time Six Flags installed a ride on the scale of a giga? My money is on "It's only a matter of time before Six Flags is done installing small clones, RMC conversions and carnival rides and finally goes out of business."

Yep, Intamin's been ditching the shoulder pads and going overhead lap bar only recently. Some coasters like Maverick and Intimidator 305 still need the harnesses though, to keep riders bodies in place through those lightning-fast transitions. I was under the impression Ispeed had a couple intense Maverick-like transitions as well. I could see these working on Maverick and the rides at Hershey, but definitely not on I305. Skyrush though... the only reason I can imagine it DIDN'T get these restraints is Hershey told Intamin most of their guests tend to be bloated from eating so much chocolate and need the extra belly room.

^I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

It's important not to underestimate location. KK is still just getting started so their marketing budget may be limited, but they're IN the city, while HW is still over an hour away. This gives them a distinct advantage in the Louisville area, which as was pointed out is HW's primary market. But this isn't an either/or scenario, both parks are going to do fine. You guys in the Midwest are just used to everything being so far away from each other, in the Northeast we're used to having plenty of parks within an hour and a half of each other that are all able to remain profitable. Or maybe all the HW fanboys/girls just can't stand the thought of KK actually being able to compete with their beloved HW, as if that's some kind of knock on HW, which is just strange.

Yes, they do, typically at the bottom of the first drop due to the forces and how easily the restraints are pulled / pushed down. Also, if you leave too much space between your lap and the restraint in the station, the operator will push it down on you. yeah most operator's do that if it's too visible. But how awesome would it be if the restraints stayed in there first position, you would feel like you're launched into heaven over those hills. You WOULD get launched into heaven over those hills. Any ride with airtime as strong as SR has restraints that lock you into a death grip because any wiggle room at all and you'd go flying. Have you been on Skyrush? You wouldn't just hit the restraint and then fall back to your seat, you'd slip right out. NO THANK YOU. Maverick needed it because of all the twisting action, but I've never had a problem with neck chopping on either of Hershey's. And I really hate those heavy straps on your shoulders.