An Intamin Woodie Concept [NL]

[Oreos]

Hi all, I'm working on a concept for an Intamin woodie in NL, this will by my first proper coaster, and I *think* I've done my homework regarding what is and isn't okay!

Unlike quite a few people I've seen, this isn't just an Intamin woodie because I say it is. I'm following what you'd actually find on Intamin coasters (Track installed in 25 ft sections, lots of hills, etc.)

 

The thing about this woodie is that I am not working from a plan, but rather making things up as I go. What I've got so far isn't all that spectacular, but hey, it's a start. Keep in mind that it IS handmade, so things probably aren't going to be perfect.

 

The layout so far

 

The train drops directly out of the station into a small bunny hop hill...

 

 

Then into another one...

 

 

Then into a small turn that may or may not lead to the actual lift hill:

 

 

 

Comments? Criticism? Requests? Demands?

Edited June 27, 2011 by Oreos

[AJClarke0912]

From what I can tell, this has nice shaping so far! This looks pretty good.

[Oreos]

Glad to hear! I try to test my coaster every time I add/remove a section of track to make sure the g-forces and smoothness are in check, and that it looks decent.

[Oreos]

Well I'm back with another insignificant update. The lift is done. Pardon my French, but the first drop has been a real bitch to work out:

 

 

That is not how a first drop should look, nor is it how a first drop should feel. (6.8 gs? Judas Priest!)

[A.J.]

On the contrary - it looks perfectly fine.

 

6.8G though? Not as much. You might want to fix that.

[AJClarke0912]

Ooof, 6.8 is really way too much. I'd go 4.5 MAX for an Intamin prefab. Round it out a little more/make it bigger.

[CoasterCreator9]

It looks a bit steep to me, the transition into the drop might have something to do with that.

[QueerRudie]

That is not how a first drop should look, nor is it how a first drop should feel. (6.8 gs? Judas Priest!)

 

6.8gs? What's wrong with that? A good Anton Schwarzkopf coaster does that...

 

R.D. "Give me G's, or give me MORE G's" Sussmann

Games Forum Moderating Team

[mcjaco]

Any thread that uses this reference:

 

All your criticism are belong to me

 

should be read by everyone.

[MeMeMe]

^That's why I slapped myself when I passed by it to look at RCT2 stuff. I only realized my mistake later.

[Oreos]

Well, change of plans my friends.

 

 

I got the idea to replace the first drop with a large double drop, however it seems a bit disproportionally large and out of place, I'm not sure if I should keep it or not.

[scooterdoug]

I've been following this, as I love those Intamin Prefabs. I have also had the idea of a double drop for a coaster. That hill does seem large. Perhaps you could shrink the first drop and following hill, leaving a larger second (or main) "first drop". So, instead of two larger drops, you could have more of a pre-drop that feeds into a small airtime hill. The airtime from that small hill would then be sustained throughout the entire large "main" first drop. That way, you still get the double drop, but still have a very tall and distinct first drop. I'll be interested to see how your creation turns out. Keep up the good work!

-Doug

[AJClarke0912]

That is not how a first drop should look, nor is it how a first drop should feel. (6.8 gs? Judas Priest!)

 

6.8gs? What's wrong with that? A good Anton Schwarzkopf coaster does that...

 

R.D. "Give me G's, or give me MORE G's" Sussmann

Games Forum Moderating Team

Do note that Schwarzkopfs only sustain that for pretty much a second. Also, the most G's ever on a Schwarz is 6.5, which lasts for an instant before it starts dropping near zero as the 3-car train of Mindbender moves to the top of the loop.

 

Holding 6.8G's for more than a couple seconds would pretty much black out everyone on the train. Sorry.

[funkeymon]

I like the concept, but it would seem to look nicer going down the side of a hill. I think it would fit in better.

[QueerRudie]

That is not how a first drop should look, nor is it how a first drop should feel. (6.8 gs? Judas Priest!)

 

6.8gs? What's wrong with that? A good Anton Schwarzkopf coaster does that...

 

R.D. "Give me G's, or give me MORE G's" Sussmann

Games Forum Moderating Team

Do note that Schwarzkopfs only sustain that for pretty much a second. Also, the most G's ever on a Schwarz is 6.5, which lasts for an instant before it starts dropping near zero as the 3-car train of Mindbender moves to the top of the loop.

 

Holding 6.8G's for more than a couple seconds would pretty much black out everyone on the train. Sorry.

 

Pulling out my Schwarzkopf-fanboy mindset here...

 

Anton's Mindbender forces are highest in the third loop- when originally opened with the six car trains (The three lead car trains were not added till after the accident), the trains pulled 7.1gs entering the third (40ft diameter) loop- and were 4.86 at the top of the loop.

 

The Gs sustained over the course NOW are at the highest once again at the base of the third loop- and read in at 6.75-6.90 depending on the velocity of the train entering the loop. The shorter trains, however, maintain the higher G loads through the loop (4.90 at the top of the inversion). In addition, the first and second rotary dives (the first drop, the third drop) start off at .98gs at the start- and round down to a 5.5g push across the bottom.

 

You are correct that it's sustained for a brief second on each end of the inversion- but the G loads are consistantly high. 6.8 gs may cause grey-outs, but the real fun doesn't start till 7.0 or higher, save people who are prone to G-LOC.

[AJClarke0912]

The other thing to keep in mind is that this isn't a Schwarzkopf, and it's not a loop. If he wants an Intamin woodie, it should have realistic G's to match, because if it doesn't then the shapes won't resemble Intamin woodies, and it thus won't be one.

[QueerRudie]

The other thing to keep in mind is that this isn't a Schwarzkopf, and it's not a loop. If he wants an Intamin woodie, it should have realistic G's to match, because if it doesn't then the shapes won't resemble Intamin woodies, and it thus won't be one.

 

Agreed- but someday somebody will make a high-G woodie that pleases me... I can only HOPE for it, can't I?

[mightbeawannabe]

^They've already made it. Loop-de-Loop a la Coney Island with a 13' loop.

[Oreos]

Fun fact gentlemen, it turns out that realistic double drops are quite a bit larger than we thought. I decided to test proper double drop proportions by saving the one on NL's colossus model and using it in place of the double drop I had. It was a little smaller, but took up nearly the same space.

 

With some smoothing out and reshaping, I got some sweet ejector airtime (about -1G), before the "true" first drop. I think the double drop is a keeper.

[Kumbarider1993]

Pulling out my Schwarzkopf-fanboy mindset here...

 

Anton's Mindbender forces are highest in the third loop- when originally opened with the six car trains (The three lead car trains were not added till after the accident), the trains pulled 7.1gs entering the third (40ft diameter) loop- and were 4.86 at the top of the loop.

 

The Gs sustained over the course NOW are at the highest once again at the base of the third loop- and read in at 6.75-6.90 depending on the velocity of the train entering the loop. The shorter trains, however, maintain the higher G loads through the loop (4.90 at the top of the inversion). In addition, the first and second rotary dives (the first drop, the third drop) start off at .98gs at the start- and round down to a 5.5g push across the bottom.

 

You are correct that it's sustained for a brief second on each end of the inversion- but the G loads are consistantly high. 6.8 gs may cause grey-outs, but the real fun doesn't start till 7.0 or higher, save people who are prone to G-LOC.

 

 

Actually Mindbender had 4-car trains before the accident. And the max. positive g-force is 6.78 and has been. That was hardly altered by the train switch. And actually, Grey-outs and black out are dependent on the level of positive G's and how long they are sustained. B&M coasters most of the time (i think Nemesis is the exception) don't exceed 4.0-4.5 G's but they cause grey-outs still because B&M delivers positive g-force in a long-sustained wave form. On schwarzkopf coasters, blackouts occur because the positive g-force is higher (usually in the range of 5.0-6.0 upon entering a loop). Those high-g's only occur for a few seconds though and not nearly as long as on a B&M coaster. The traveling rides are alot faster than his earlier examples of loops, but on the early looping models he aimed for 1.0 positive g's at the top of the inversion. 0.8+ g's is what is need to hold passengers in the coaches without needing the restraint.

 

Out of the realm of steel coastering now, Intamin pre-fab "woodies" can only go up to around 4.5+ g's. Although they use steel rails, they still have a wooden structure, and wooden structures can't take the same amount of g's as a steel coaster or it will become too punishing on the wooden beams. Intamin woodies can handle more positive g's then a traditional wooden coaster because their steel rails, but even their limit is below that of a steel coaster. Traditional wooden coasters should only have a max. positive g-force of 3.0-3.5 for a good ride. When they step up around 4.0-4.5 (Boardwalk Bullet, The Voyage) you notice their is an increased amount of wear and tear on the track an structure, and the rides become rough...unless the park wants to spend $1,000,000 every season retracking it (The Voyage). Intamin woodies wouldn't become rough, but the wooden structure still isn't as strong as a steel one, as far as positive g-force go.

 

7.0 is also far too high, around 8.0 is where people will pass out from the excessive g's. I apologize for being a little ranty by the way, i don't mean any disrespect, just giving some information about g-forces.

 

The original 4-car trains in 1985.

Diagram of the original trains from schwarzkopf-coaster.net

[QueerRudie]

Pulling out my Schwarzkopf-fanboy mindset here...

 

Anton's Mindbender forces are highest in the third loop- when originally opened with the six car trains (The three lead car trains were not added till after the accident), the trains pulled 7.1gs entering the third (40ft diameter) loop- and were 4.86 at the top of the loop.

 

The Gs sustained over the course NOW are at the highest once again at the base of the third loop- and read in at 6.75-6.90 depending on the velocity of the train entering the loop. The shorter trains, however, maintain the higher G loads through the loop (4.90 at the top of the inversion). In addition, the first and second rotary dives (the first drop, the third drop) start off at .98gs at the start- and round down to a 5.5g push across the bottom.

 

You are correct that it's sustained for a brief second on each end of the inversion- but the G loads are consistantly high. 6.8 gs may cause grey-outs, but the real fun doesn't start till 7.0 or higher, save people who are prone to G-LOC.

 

 

Actually Mindbender had 4-car trains before the accident. And the max. positive g-force is 6.78 and has been. That was hardly altered by the train switch. And actually, Grey-outs and black out are dependent on the level of positive G's and how long they are sustained. B&M coasters most of the time (i think Nemesis is the exception) don't exceed 4.0-4.5 G's but they cause grey-outs still because B&M delivers positive g-force in a long-sustained wave form. On schwarzkopf coasters, blackouts occur because the positive g-force is higher (usually in the range of 5.0-6.0 upon entering a loop). Those high-g's only occur for a few seconds though and not nearly as long as on a B&M coaster. The traveling rides are alot faster than his earlier examples of loops, but on the early looping models he aimed for 1.0 positive g's at the top of the inversion. 0.8+ g's is what is need to hold passengers in the coaches without needing the restraint.

 

Out of the realm of steel coastering now, Intamin pre-fab "woodies" can only go up to around 4.5+ g's. Although they use steel rails, they still have a wooden structure, and wooden structures can't take the same amount of g's as a steel coaster or it will become too punishing on the wooden beams. Intamin woodies can handle more positive g's then a traditional wooden coaster because their steel rails, but even their limit is below that of a steel coaster. Traditional wooden coasters should only have a max. positive g-force of 3.0-3.5 for a good ride. When they step up around 4.0-4.5 (Boardwalk Bullet, The Voyage) you notice their is an increased amount of wear and tear on the track an structure, and the rides become rough...unless the park wants to spend $1,000,000 every season retracking it (The Voyage). Intamin woodies wouldn't become rough, but the wooden structure still isn't as strong as a steel one, as far as positive g-force go.

 

7.0 is also far too high, around 8.0 is where people will pass out from the excessive g's. I apologize for being a little ranty by the way, i don't mean any disrespect, just giving some information about g-forces.

 

[attachment=1]Mindbender 1985.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=0]Mindbender 1985 train.jpg[/attachment]

 

The information I've been (And sourced) about the Schwarzkopf Mindbender is from WEM Mall's engineering departement directly. Mindbender was delivered with six car trains, and shortened during the course of use. The three cars today are now standard- partly as a result of the accident.

 

As for the G forces: The most recent testing during a video shoot for a documentary shown later on the Travel channel shows current pacing of around 5.75gs even during the tightest of loops on Mindbender. And about the train length- Yes, losing a car will dreastically change the speed on a steel coaster- When you lose two tons of weight, it's going to show up in the ride's physics. Newtonian physics changes when mass changes- especially when you're dealing with a rotary gravity curve or Klothoide/Clohtoid loop curve.

 

With rare exception, Schwarzkopf's Loopingracer II (And later models) coasters were delivered with a mimimum of 5 cars per train- and usually seven. It was reccommended by Schwarzkopf that you did not modifiy or alter the train length due to his designs- due to the specificity of phyiscs used in them. In the case of Triple Five, like the maintenence bulletins that could have prevented the accident, these were not followed. Until now I was unaware that the trains were the shorter trains- but those are also the MKia trains, not the current MkIIB trains (Different restraint systems, different axle sets).

 

I've sent an e-mail to the gentleman from Schwarzkopf.coaster.net for more information on Mindbender's history- But even with that, physics is physics, and the 6.78 that was once quoted might not be applicable- as it appears to have been more for publicity than for fact. Also, the speeds on the Schwarzkopf Portables were not as fast as you might think: Schwarzkopf was a master, and never exceeded a certain range of speed. A lot of people swear that they are going faster, but in all reality- no more than 55 MPH as an average. It's a visual illusion about the speed being faster- in fact, if you look at the size of the inversions relative to speed of entry/exit from the inversion itself, the scaling of the loop IS relative to the speed for which the train's motions going into/out of are. Look at one of His Looping Star models for example.

[Kumbarider1993]

The information I've been (And sourced) about the Schwarzkopf Mindbender is from WEM Mall's engineering departement directly. Mindbender was delivered with six car trains, and shortened during the course of use. The three cars today are now standard- partly as a result of the accident.

 

As for the G forces: The most recent testing during a video shoot for a documentary shown later on the Travel channel shows current pacing of around 5.75gs even during the tightest of loops on Mindbender. And about the train length- Yes, losing a car will dreastically change the speed on a steel coaster- When you lose two tons of weight, it's going to show up in the ride's physics. Newtonian physics changes when mass changes- especially when you're dealing with a rotary gravity curve or Klothoide/Clohtoid loop curve.

 

With rare exception, Schwarzkopf's Loopingracer II (And later models) coasters were delivered with a mimimum of 5 cars per train- and usually seven. It was reccommended by Schwarzkopf that you did not modifiy or alter the train length due to his designs- due to the specificity of phyiscs used in them. In the case of Triple Five, like the maintenence bulletins that could have prevented the accident, these were not followed. Until now I was unaware that the trains were the shorter trains- but those are also the MKia trains, not the current MkIIB trains (Different restraint systems, different axle sets).

 

I've sent an e-mail to the gentleman from Schwarzkopf.coaster.net for more information on Mindbender's history- But even with that, physics is physics, and the 6.78 that was once quoted might not be applicable- as it appears to have been more for publicity than for fact. Also, the speeds on the Schwarzkopf Portables were not as fast as you might think: Schwarzkopf was a master, and never exceeded a certain range of speed. A lot of people swear that they are going faster, but in all reality- no more than 55 MPH as an average. It's a visual illusion about the speed being faster- in fact, if you look at the size of the inversions relative to speed of entry/exit from the inversion itself, the scaling of the loop IS relative to the speed for which the train's motions going into/out of are. Look at one of His Looping Star models for example.

 

Yeah, i'm thinking the statistic on schwarzkopf.coaster.net was an older one. So mindbender really had six-car trains? Wasn't aware of that because the oldest photo i've seen of it was the one i posted was the one with the four-car trains. Mindbender is always such a boggeling coaster though, it seemed like it had quite a history, it still seems like one of the oddest ones produced. Schwarzkopf really knew how to use speed though, the traveling coaster's layouts were so tight. Even olympia only goes 50 mph. It reminds me in early articles for riverview park's bobs said it went 90 mph even though it was only around 80 ft tall! The best example of schwarzkopf creating that illusion of speed is really the "Baviarin Mountain Railroad" model coasters that were produced in conjunction with Zeirer and BHS i think. I still can hardly belive jetline only goes 45 Mph! Anyways, intamin pre-fab woodie discussion thread, so moving on... Cheers

[CorkscrewFoley]

Rudie, is officially my favourite poster on here. I know it's spam. But back onto the prefab, with the double down, did you play with the drop, flat version, drop ala Jack Rabbit? I'm sure with the length of the trains and the speed, you'll get some sweet injector air.