DCs221

There is actually no airtime on the crest of El Toro's lift, forces at min are probably .6. Not sure how it's possible to have "heavy floater" as all floater air has a force of approximately 0. On that low hill after the turnaround, front row riders get some minimal yet sustained ejector, while backrow riders slowly go from the positives to a quick "pop" of medium ejector, likely something around -.4 or -.5 g's. You also neglected to include the next hop up, which probably has airtime of around -.5, and the pops of air on the S curve hills. I definately also disagree that there's "insane" ejector air on the hill into the brakes. Back row barely leaves the seat on that hill, and front gets some low to moderate negative g's. Compared to the first drop back row, the first 2 hills, and the hill over RT, that airtime is very weak. El Toro definately doesn't have the most air of any ride, or even close, but I have to agree that it's some of the most intense airtime. The forces are so extreme that I can feel pressure build in my head on the first 2 camelbacks and the hill over RT. It's also awesome how sustained most of the airtime is. Most hills feature airtime duration of well over a second, and even more than 2 seconds on occasion. Rides like Voyage, Nitro, and Apollo's Chariot probably have the most airtime in the world. Their overall focus is not on strong ejector air, which, although I think it's more exciting, just physically doesn't allow for the highest duration of air. The three rides I listed have pretty long layouts and have many extended hills and drops that give the rides their high amount of airtime.

So I'm gonna have to agree with my man Real. His post automatically makes more sense than anyone elses, just because there are hotties in it. Yay for hotties.

http://freizeitparkweb.de/dcf/User_files/43037b9d73a67fb0.jpg and http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,grossbild-506880-370461,00.html

I think I read that a park (Heide maybe?) let him move it there, and continue building. Not sure if that worked out though, especially since I havn't heard anything since. It looked excellent for a homemade coaster... shaping and everything was really awesome, and it did look smooth. From what I remember, I'd have to say I agree with the example of it being similar to a mini-MF drop.

I *think* it was a term describing the more technical definition dealing with radius changes along a curve, most likely used by one person and then spreading to others, until it was a common term. Not sure of that, but I do know I've never heard of a manufacturer referring to "pumping."

Two consecutive rides on El Toro, towards the back of the train, at night 2 hours before closing on the final day of the season! WEEE!

Correct viking86. If pumping is done purposely and is smooth, there's no reason for it to be bad. Infact, it is a clever technique that can be very useful if implemented properly, as seen on B&Ms and Intamins. Why in the world should coasters be made of all circular segments? That's neglecting an infinite amount of shapes that could create some amazing sensations. Another example of "pumping" is the bottom of SROS SFNE's drop... the radius is relatively small, then increases toward the bottom, and tightens a lot at the very end. If you're going faster, like at the bottom of the drop, doesn't it only make sense to have a larger radius? Plus, the last little radius tightening at the end of the pullup is very exciting, as it creates some unexpected g's. That, along with the tiny leadout of that pullout, makes this pullout much more exciting than it could be as just a regular circular pullout with a leadin/leadout.

Apollo's Chariot definately does have a pump at the base of the drop off the MCBR. That section of track has a small radius, which increases near the bottom, and decreases again as it nears the inflection point. B&M have the most sophisticated shaping of any company...that WAS intentional. The flat section on the bottom of the first drop is not a pump. The pullout of the first drop has a leadout to the flat section down there, then there's a leadin, and the pullup to the first camelback. That is not one continuous curve. The pullout immediately after the MCBR was probably done be either to reduce the duration of G's and at the same time increase the intensity of each "pump," but it could also be just to switch up the fluent up and down motion on most hills on the ride. Another very plausible explanation is to stretch out the track so the subsequent drop would end up directly over the water. AC seems pretty stretched out in general, mostly because of the unique terrain. I'm sure you agree it would make more sense to stretch out a fast pullout than increase the length of the MCBR where the train is travelling relatively slow. I guarantee you, that feature was done purposely. The vibrations, which are also evident on Nitro toward the back (I've been on that ride over 70 times), are from wear, most likely on the train (as front row rides can still be smooth as silk). Track shaping has not changed enough to be perceptible without some sophisticated instruments. Been on Apollo 136 times, Nitro 70+, and Raging Bull 7. I understand exactly what pumping is, and I have extensive knowledge of track shaping in NL. Trust that what I've said is correct, other than the reasons for the shaping at the bottom of the drops, which are just educated guesses.

Um, no. SUF's pretzel loop probably maxes out between 3.5 and 4.5 g's, but is definately nowhere near 6.2... no clue where you got that from.

All B&M hypers.

I see now, fair enough.

I wouldn't describe the negatives as violent, just extremely forceful. Violent negatives to me would describe something that could possible hurt, from the jerkiness or whatever. That's something like you can find on Cyclone at SFNE in a few spots, but not El Toro.

El Toro's track curves to the left just over the first drop, then pulls up into one of the most intense hills ever... very tight radius over the top, small leadin, steep drop on the other side, and yet still good speed over the top make for an awesome moment. Here it is here http://rcdb.com/ig3183.htm?picture=48 The reason people refer to it as such is because it hops over the middle of Rolling Thunder's first drop...it's actually only around 15 feet shorter than RT, and this is most of the way through El Toro's layout. More pictures http://rcdb.com/ig3183.htm?picture=41 http://gadv.com/06Construction/52806/1.jpg http://gadv.com/06Construction/52806/5.jpg

I agree that El Toro is indeed smoother than Nitro, atleast if you compare the back rows of each... the fronts are also comparable. With rides like SROS, it also really depends on where you sit...there's a very noticeable difference in smoothness between the front and back rows of that ride. I remember last year when they recently put the red train on SROS SFA for the first time in the season, it was running very fast, and the front row was as smooth as a B&M hyper, other than shuffling exiting the second helix... the shuffling is usually distributed throughout more of the ride. However, in the back rows, and throughout the blue train, shuffling and shaking was more apparent. Back row of El Toro is just buttery smooth. No shaking at all, to the point where you could feel the seams inbetween track segments at one point in the track (where you weren't bombarded with heavy g's or crazy airtime). I noticed that on Titan when I went this summer, and I'm sure that's one of the smoothest rides in the world. I don't understand imbordisux's definition of airtime types. It seems simple enough to me... ejector airtime is where the rider experiences airtime with a magnitude greater than 0, thus pushing them against the lapbar, and floater air is where the g's hover around 0. I think what he's trying to describe is not the magnitude of the force, but the quickness of it's onset, or the jerk. That's much of what makes the hill over RT seem more forceful than the first two hills, when in reality I'm sure the difference between them is less significant than people say. There is a very tiny leadin there, which increases the magnitude of negatives more quickly than the first few hills, meaning riders hit the lapbar harder, but not necessarily that they experience higher forces. I've spoken to Real about that, and he says some of Voyage's thrill is in the small transitions between pullout and pullover, making the jerk value relatively high compared to rides with longer leadins/outs. Personally, one of the things I don't like about wooden coasters is how many have airtime that's segmented because of roughness causing the rider to bounce around in the seat, which makes it harder to enjoy the airtime IMO. If I get floater airtime, I want to float between the seat and restraint instead of bouncing up and down. Same thing applies with ejector airtime. Ofcourse, one spot where the ride just gives a pop of ejector can be very exciting and surprising, I just wouldn't want the entire ride to be made of pops of air or sharp bounces over hills.

I read a trip report on this site I think, where they said Balder was a full 15 seconds faster at night vs. the morning, which is a huge difference. I noticed a difference in speeds on El Toro between 12 and 3:30... both onride and offride. Offride, you can hear the difference in the first two hills... the upstop sound was sustained longer, and was louder than my first ride. The ending sequence of S curve hills was more out of control than the first ride too, though I still think the ride needs a much better final 5-7 seconds. Haven't been on it in the evening, but I heard it's even more extreme. With that said, morning rides still have absolutely insane and sustained airtime, still with quality easily rivalling SROS SFNE's best hills. I'm not sure where the guy who made the first post rode, but I don't see how he could describe the air as floater. You can hear the upstops riding the track, and you can compare that to the sounds when there really is floater air, like when entering the first turnaround, on that drop (I'd guess middle rows have perfect floater, as the back has some slight, but very sustained, ejector). You can hear the train bounce between the road and upstop wheels very slightly there, though it's not really noticeable onride... just seems like good floater. That's in stark contrast to the sounds we've all heard on the Balder and Colossos videos here. But yeah, unlike most other Intamins I've been on, I think back row is definately the best spot on the ride. It's so amazingly intense back there. I love how the transitions between the hill pullovers and pullouts is so small...many times riders in the back half of the train have trouble sitting upright through the entire pullout, myself included. That occurs at the bottom of the first, second, and third drops, base of the turnaround, bottom of the drop over RT, and somewhat in the turns in the twister section. In contrast to the initial poster, I also found the twister section to have strong and very dynamic lats anywhere on the train, front or back. With my hands up I had to fight to not smack my riding partner upside their head lol. The most banked parts don't have a ton of lats, but it's the transitions where you can really feel it. I also find good lats in the beginning of the first turnaround, and it's very cool how the lats transition to heavy positives while nearing the bottom.

I wouldn't DATman, especially since we're considering general layout originality over which has more types of rides. If you have 2 bobsled coasters... both the same layout except one of them has a 90* turn somewhere whereas the other has a 180* turn there... that's not originality. But, look at the diversity on this lineup... Storm Runner Balder Kingda Ka Colossus Volcano El Toro Kanonen Atlantis Adventure Goliath Wicked Twister Millennium Force RITA Speed Monster Supersonic Odyssey Thunder Dolphin Superman Escape I specified these coasters because in general, they are very little alike in their layouts. Not only is element order different, but there are few that share the same elements. Those that do, like RITA and Superman Escape, are modified in their implementation; RITA's twisted hills are relatively flat and wide, while Superman's are much steeper with a smaller radius pullover. The similarities between Intamin rides, with some exceptions, usually exist between 2 or 3 coasters, not 90% of all their rides. While B&M does have some innovation in their layouts, they don't modify their elements or include new elements very much at all. I'd like to see more of inversions like DD's immelman with the helix that wraps around it...that's a new way of implementing that inversion into the layout. The way Silver Bullet's 0-g roll continues to rotate into that turnaround is relatively unique. AIR's layout in general is relatively unique...may not be the most exciting ride ever, but I feel that B&M did a good job in working with the flying concept to design a ride that really uses it's abilities from riders being able to flip on their backs or stomach's, instead of just doing U turns because it's fun being in the flying position. Like I said before though, B&M have their spot in coaster design, and it's an immensely prominent one as one what many, including myself, believe are the top 2 designers. They make reliable rides that everyone knows parkgoers will really enjoy. I know several of their rides are among my favorites...Apollo's Chariot, Raptor, Alpengeist...so what they do the definately do well. I'm just rarely that excited about a new B&M opening, because as many have suggested, their layouts (and inversion order as this thread cites) aren't usually anything out of the ordinary.

Intamin came into play when it was a pertinent comparison to B&M...what gives you the right to tell him not to compare B&M's layouts and/or elements to Intamin?

I think a lot of you all are being overly technical about the general order of B&Ms...for instance Kumba Medusa SFGAdv Scream Medusa SFMW Kraken Dragon Kahn Superman La Attracion de Acero Superman Krypton Coaster Great Bear Montu (and to a lesser extent Alpengeist, Dominator, Batman Dark Knight, Insane Speed, Silver Bullet, Wild Fire) are all almost exactly the same in layout and element order/selection. They're also similar to these rides, which are almost the same as eachother Every Batman clone Talon Raptor Orochi Katun Black Mamba (in it's first half especially) Patriot Pyrennees My thing is, instead of randomly shuffling the inversion order like some of these do (without making any real changes in ride feel, which is why many people complain that B&Ms are so similar), and like people have suggested, they should explore different ways of implementing and modifying these inversions, while not maintaining the same inversion order every time. It seems they've started to do this somewhat with several of their newer installations like Hydra and Tatsu, but there's still so much they can switch up to give increasingly unique rides. With that said, B&M seem to me like they, in contrast to Intamin, thrive on the proven and reliable nature of their designs. At any park, B&Ms are crowd pleasers...I can't think of any exceptions to that, other than maybe a few older ones that have gotten a little rough (though I loved Iron Wolf). Anyways, since most people won't go to too many parks, they're doing perfectly fine by making similar but proven layouts for their clients. Plus, if someone visits two parks with similar rides, like SFGAdv and BGW, they're not going to really complain that Nitro is like Apollo's Chariot because of the quality of their product, a fact that I know firsthand from several friends.

You're gonna have to wait lol. It's going to take a lot longer than expect, due to some recent developments. Rest assured, though, that the extra length will equate to an awesome final product, and it'll be worth the wait.

Yeah, Phyter's doing an amazing job with 3ds. I'm glad to be working with him.

Update! http://nldc.interfix.net/u29 Enjoy! Also, if you like Roar at Six Flags America, check out my recreation of that ride, also in progress. Trackwork is done, and supporting is around halfway finished. http://nldc.interfix.net/p24

haha NL is definately worth buying for many more reasons than just my Superman recreation lol, but thanks for the compliment!

Thanks eyeamthu1! Progress! Phyter's doing an awesome job with the buildings adjacent to Superman's lift hill. http://nldc.interfix.net/p64 Enjoy!

ooo... I'm intrigued...

Yeah, I'm going to upload it to more places than just CoasterSims. CoasterSims will be first, but then a week or two later I'll upload it here, TN, ACN, CG2, CN and WWS. Yeah Phyter used CK to export the other tracks for the scene. Mind Eraser is Thunderhawk Geauga Lake by JackFrahn. I made Poison Ivy's Tangled Train myself. BiCoastalKid- thanks for the compliment. I've seen your rides in the scrapyard at NLDC and I seriously think overall they're the best there. You're great at recreating the feel of many different manufacturers. I really think you should finish some of those rides up, especially that Gerstlauer bobsled, which was really realistic and cool. I'd love to see some of your designs completed!