Geauga Lake Discussion Thread

[ginzo]

^Well there biggest problem is the short ride time and low capacity. However at a small park like MiA, they seem to be a perfect thrilling attraction that doesn't cost alot to build. As for the taking over the Wild Mouse market, I don't see that happening. Euro Fighters are some pretty extreme rides, unlike a wild mouse, which the whole family can ride. But if they got one, I think it would be a great investment at MiA. B&M's don't come cheap.

 

I dunno. I have yet to be on a Eurofighter, but spinning mice totally mess me up. I don't like spinning rides, and I'm not alone in that. I can handle inversions far more easily. Mystery Mine, as far as I can tell, isn't going to be too extreme. It's not huge, and certainly isn't going to break any speed or height records. I'd just like to see more of this, and less wild mouse installations. I've only been on one mouse that I actually enjoyed, the one at Busch Gardens Africa.

[Carnage]

Well my point is that they lack a great coaster that I would come to ride. I think the park hasn't really added much for thrill seekers. But if that ride would be best for them, and they feel it could help them, it might be a good ride for them. Its just that I feel they have so many family and kiddie coasters, they might benefit from a great coaster. Now I know that in their area, building these types of rides works for them, the park has a very high attendence, and why build a good one if you don't have any competion, but hey, is it wrong to wish for a better coaster?

 

I think we're misunderstanding each other.

 

I couldn't agree more that Wonderland could use a major blockbuster coaster.

 

I'm just saying a good spinning mouse would be a great addition as well. It would definetly start pushing the park away from the quantity over quality thing they got going now.

 

And really they don't have any more family attractions then other parks.

[cjeagle35]

I dunno. I have yet to be on a Eurofighter, but spinning mice totally mess me up. I don't like spinning rides, and I'm not alone in that. I can handle inversions far more easily. Mystery Mine, as far as I can tell, isn't going to be too extreme. It's not huge, and certainly isn't going to break any speed or height records. I'd just like to see more of this, and less wild mouse installations. I've only been on one mouse that I actually enjoyed, the one at Busch Gardens Africa.

 

Well I'd certainly agree with you. I'd much rather ride a coaster with speed and loops, rather than something that spins. As that just makes me sick. But it isn't what you or I would rather see. Preteens might be scared of the height, speed, and loops of a Eurofighter, but they wouldn't be scared of a wild mouse. My point is a wild mouse gives something for the whole family, while a Eurofighter might be too much for young children.

 

Just since I've been thinking of this topic as we have been discussing what might be best for Cedar Fair's parks, and because I thought it might cause some interesting discussion, I thought I'd name what type of roller coaster I'd like to see for these parks. Now I don't know if this is what will go in, I'm just going to make some logical suggestions as to what each park's next coaster installation should be. Just for fun.

 

Canada's Wonderland-B&M or Intamin Hyper

 

Dorney Park- I think it sees most logical that this will be the next home of Steel Venom, I could be wrong, but with the park upgrading its power, not being too far from GL, and with its plans to expand, it seems to be the place.

 

Carowinds- B&M or Intamin Hyper that crosses state lines

 

Kings Dominion- maybe a hyper, or something else

 

Geauga Lake- a Proslide watercoaster, lol, next real coaster-Mack Spinner

 

Kings Island- B&M invert

 

Michigan's Adventure- Gerstlaur Eurofighter or another GCI woodie

 

Worlds of Fun- GCI woodie

 

Valleyfair!- up in the air

 

Knotts Berry Farm- up in the air, maybe another Maverick like ride?

 

Great America- B&M floorless

 

Cedar Point- I see GCI or Intamin woodie running along the beach or in Mean Streak's old spot. Finally gives CP a top notch woodie and challenges for a top spot in coaster polls.

 

Now I realize some of these just might be wishful thinking, but I had a good time thinking them up. It will probably take quite a few years for these to come, but I can see how some of these installations make sense. We'll just have to see what Cedar Fair does.

[jamesdillaman]

cjeagle35,

 

MiA does NOT need another wood coaster. They have 2 large wooden coasters (one good one) and a jr. woodie. They have a corkscrew, arrow mouse, and kiddie coaster for their steel collection. They definitely need a steel coaster. Have you been to the park since Grand Rapids opened? That whole area at the back of the park is very different. They spent more money on it because it's THEMED, where as none of the other attractions are.

 

Also, Muskegon and the western lake shore of michigan see many tourists during the summer months. Lots of great camping and boating as well as other watersports on the great lakes. Most of the people I've met around here (cincinnati), know Muskegon because they've gone on camping trips there, but they never knew there was a theme park nearby. There IS an untapped market, there. It may not be as big as SFMM's, but the park is more than capable of being profitable. I do agree it needs some more food stands, but it could use a steel coaster, and even though a eurofighter might be only $3 Million, I'm sure it wouldn't cost nearly that to move Steel Venom there, which is why, using your argument, it makes more sense to MOVE a coaster to a smaller market park than put money into a brand NEW attraction at that park, don't you think?

 

-james "just speaking from a purely business standpoint" dillaman

[cjeagle35]

MiA does NOT need another wood coaster. They have 2 large wooden coasters (one good one) and a jr. woodie. They have a corkscrew, arrow mouse, and kiddie coaster for their steel collection. They definitely need a steel coaster. Have you been to the park?

 

Yes, but steel coasters are very expensive. Have you not read what we've discussed in this thread. Michigan's Adventure doesn't make enough to justify a big steel coaster, maybe a Eurofighter, but certainly not a B&M or Intamin. Those are just too expensive for the park. Also whats wrong with more wooden coasters, have you ever been to Holiday World? They sure don't regret building 3 woodies instead of a steel coaster.

 

Also, Muskegon and the western lake shore of michigan see many tourists during the summer months. Lots of great camping and boating as well as other watersports on the great lakes. Most of the people I've met around here (cincinnati), know Muskegon because they've gone on camping trips there, but they never knew there was a theme park nearby. There IS an untapped market, there. It may not be as big as SFMM's, but the park is more than capable of being profitable.

 

I'm sure if there was a market to make a huge amusement park in the area, someone would have started one. Believe me, those people at CF and MiA are smart businessmen, if the park could grow faster than it is, they would put more attractions.

 

I do agree it needs some more food stands, but it could use a steel coaster, and even though a eurofighter might be only $3 Million, I'm sure it wouldn't cost nearly that to move Steel Venom there, which is why, using your argument, it makes more sense to MOVE a coaster to a smaller market park than put money into a brand NEW attraction at that park, don't you think?

 

Its the operating costs that make Steel Venom not fit in there. A Eurofighter would cost 3mil, then would be very little after that, as its a regular steel coaster, with a very little maintence costs. Now for Steel Venom, the park would have to pay for a new power line, the move, and have to pay for all the power that it takes to run that ride, which is alot. MiA doesn't make much less than GL did, I just don't see it going in there.

[jamesdillaman]

^ Yes, many times, and I think Holiday World would benefit from a good steel coaster. but you didn't read my whole post, did you? I said that's why it makes sense to MOVE steel venom to MiA, which costs less than designing and building a BRAND NEW woodie.

 

-james dillaman

[Carnage]

Yes, but steel coasters are very expensive. Have you not read what we've discussed in this thread. Michigan's Adventure doesn't make enough to justify a big steel coaster

 

Umm, so a few people on an internet forum say MiA doesn't make enough money, so that makes it final not to get a steel roller coaster??

 

Cedar Fair will drop a $10 million steel roller coaster there if they think it will boost attendance.

[cjeagle35]

^No, when the park puts out its revenue and attendence numbers, one can make inferences as to where the money and most expensive attractions will go. They will go to the parks that make the most money, that's why Cedar Point gets the best and most roller coasters. As I've said before, coasters don't go where they are "owed," but where the most benefit would be achieved from them, and MiA just isn't that place year in and year out. I think its perfectly logical that MiA will not get a 15mil custom B&M, but I don't think a steel coaster is out of the possiblitity. I think a nice Eurofighter would make more sense for a small park in a small metro area.

 

Of course Cedar Fair will do that. But do you really think that if they put a 15mil coaster in at MiA they'd see a positive return on their investment?

[jmicha]

I completely agree. I would have rather seen other rides leave, but X-Flight and Steel Venom are the two that make the most sense to remove due to their problematic natures and high maintenance costs. Personally, I feel that last year was the turning piont for the park. The attendance may not have improved, but the people in attenedance at the park were of a much different group than when it was Six Flags. There were more large families, ranging from grandchildren to grandparents. The people at the park in 2006 also seemed to be having much more fun. Most of the people leaving the park had a smile on their face and it was visible that they had thoroughly enjoyed their day at the park. I think the next five years will see a large improvement in the park's attendance levels.

[Milkchan]

Here we go again, I'm still surprised that X flight went to PKI. Now Steel Venom gotta go to MiA it makes the most since now, unless there is some major upgrading planned for the park between 2007 to unknown date.

[kraxleRIDAH]

^No, when the park puts out its revenue and attendence numbers, one can make inferences as to where the money and most expensive attractions will go. They will go to the parks that make the most money, that's why Cedar Point gets the best and most roller coasters. As I've said before, coasters don't go where they are "owed," but where the most benefit would be achieved from them, and MiA just isn't that place year in and year out. I think its perfectly logical that MiA will not get a 15mil custom B&M, but I don't think a steel coaster is out of the possiblitity. I think a nice Eurofighter would make more sense for a small park in a small metro area.

 

Of course Cedar Fair will do that. But do you really think that if they put a 15mil coaster in at MiA they'd see a positive return on their investment?

 

Very well put. It really isn't that hard to understand the concept of ROI, but it seems like there are a select individuals that are yet to get a grasp on it. Like you said, rides are not "owed" to parks, nor are some parks "spoiled" or "get all the attention." Capital expenditure is allotted to parks based on financial performance, attendance, immediate competition, and market. A park like Michigan's Adventure will NEVER draw in more than one million visitors in one season. It never has, it never will. For Cedar Fair to invest in a new roller coaster the way they do at Knott's or Cedar Point into MiA would be a catostrophic disaster, financially. There is no kind of gain by any means for them in doing so. Nobody can argue this.

 

If anything, a small spinning coaster like Spinning Dragons at Worlds of Fun would be a major ride for Michigan's Adventure that's reasonable enough to consider. That park's attendance and annual revenue pull does NOT justify any single attraction with a cost exceeding $5 million.

[RollerC]

I completely agree. I would have rather seen other rides leave, but X-Flight and Steel Venom are the two that make the most sense to remove due to their problematic natures and high maintenance costs. Personally, I feel that last year was the turning piont for the park. The attendance may not have improved, but the people in attenedance at the park were of a much different group than when it was Six Flags. There were more large families, ranging from grandchildren to grandparents. The people at the park in 2006 also seemed to be having much more fun. Most of the people leaving the park had a smile on their face and it was visible that they had thoroughly enjoyed their day at the park. I think the next five years will see a large improvement in the park's attendance levels.

Don't forget the fact that they maintained the 700,000 even with a shortened season. Had it been a regular season they could of been well into the 800,000 and possibly 900,000.

[cjeagle35]

^While that could be true, I'm pretty sure that was just CF putting some positive spin on this issue. I guess the attendence could be a little more, but 200,000 more people for just a few more weekends doesn't make any sense. Also, what was attendence like during the Haunt at GL in past years? From what I've heard and experianced, these Halloween events seem to get great crowds? Why did GL cut theirs?

[Homer]

Am I the only one around here who thinks CF should have kept the animals and totally redo the 50's area with a new water park? That would have seemed more family friendly...

[ginzo]

A park like Michigan's Adventure will NEVER draw in more than one million visitors in one season. It never has, it never will. For Cedar Fair to invest in a new roller coaster the way they do at Knott's or Cedar Point into MiA would be a catostrophic disaster, financially. There is no kind of gain by any means for them in doing so. Nobody can argue this.

 

If anything, a small spinning coaster like Spinning Dragons at Worlds of Fun would be a major ride for Michigan's Adventure that's reasonable enough to consider. That park's attendance and annual revenue pull does NOT justify any single attraction with a cost exceeding $5 million.

 

I agree that it's unlikely that MiA will see any rapid growth, at least the way it's being run right now. Holiday World is a great example of a growing park that's way out in the middle of nowhere. It's not a resort park. All they've got is Satan's Lodge! They spent something like $6.5 million on the Voyage, and it was money very well spent. But, I think it's obvious that HW is a much more well run park.

[jamesdillaman]

^ Yeah but a park that size will never get 1 million people, never have never.... oh wait. I guess when there are rides, people will come, even to the middle of nowhere.

 

-james "for those who don't know, holiday world DID hit 1,000,000 last season" dillaman

[cjeagle35]

Am I the only one around here who thinks CF should have kept the animals and totally redo the 50's area with a new water park? That would have seemed more family friendly...

 

The park definatly suffered from the loss of animals, even Dick Kinzel admits it. But to retain animals, CF would have to do something it has no experiance in (with the possible exception of the old dolphin show at CP). The worst thing for CF and GL was the Busch sale of SeaWorld to Six Flags. GL would have definatly had better attendence if SeaWorld was still a draw.

 

CF did build a new waterpark for the park, and families see to like it very much. I know when I went, it was packed and it was very enjoyable.

 

Believe me, the next dry attractions for GL will be first and foremost, family oriented. Expect a dark ride, Wild Mouse, Mack Spinner, or Disko coaster to be in the park's future.

[jamesdillaman]

^ Why keep the animals? You can't compete with the cleveland zoo if you want to see animals.

[ginzo]

^ Yeah but a park that size will never get 1 million people, never have never.... oh wait. I guess when there are rides, people will come, even to the middle of nowhere.

 

-james "for those who don't know, holiday world DID hit 1,000,000 last season" dillaman

 

Yeah, but I don't think MiA could pull it off. HW is exceptionally well run. It's obvious that the Kochs really take pride in their little family owned park.

[jamesdillaman]

^^ Okay, this argument got WAY off track. I for one never said that $10 would be spent for MiA. only that STEEL VENOM MIGHT BE A GOOD FIT FOR IT! Sorry to type in all caps, but it seems as if I don't, everyone is talking about B&M this or Intamin that, and this thread is about Steel Venom. Even if it isn't constructed at MiA, they have a great field to store it in, IMO.

 

 

-james " " dillaman

 

EDIT: And Joe, i realize that, but I was just saying that if a park tries hard enough, people will go to a small park in the middle of nowhere.

[cjeagle35]

^ Yeah but a park that size will never get 1 million people, never have never.... oh wait. I guess when there are rides, people will come, even to the middle of nowhere.

 

-james "for those who don't know, holiday world DID hit 1,000,000 last season" dillaman

 

As long CF keeps doing what they are doing, maybe someday MiA will reach that mark. With an 18% increase in 2005, and another increase in attendence in 2006, it seems the park is on its way. Oh, and they did all that without the addition of a roller coaster. Amazing, huh?

[kraxleRIDAH]

Holiday World IS growing, there's no doubt about that. But even with its 8% attendance increase, it still to date, has drawn at the most 627,448 guests in a season. Even that's not a lot.

 

I believe a lot of those numbers are repeat visitors who have taken a liking to the park's charm, beautiful location, well-kept infrastructure and exceptional guest services and hospitality. The Voyage alone could not have been the sole reason for the 8% attendance spike.

 

Keep in mind that this privately owned park has never spent over $6.5 million on a single attraction before -- and Voyage is only their FOURTH roller coaster, as opposed to Michigan's Adventure's six.

 

An $8.5 million ride like Steel Venom is something I just don't see going into Michigan's Adventure for a lot of good logical reasons.

[ginzo]

As long CF keeps doing what they are doing, maybe someday MiA will reach that mark. With an 18% increase in 2005, and another increase in attendence in 2006, it seems the park is on its way. Oh, and they did all that without the addition of a roller coaster. Amazing, huh?

 

Yeah, but you know as well as I do that they can't do that forever.

[jamesdillaman]

^^ It costs 8.5 Mill to develop, design and build first time around, it won't cost nearly that to move it and reconstruct it.

 

^ And Joe, you haven't been there, so don't judge too much, yet. I REALLY like the installation of Grand Rapids, and if they do more of that caliber construction, it'll grow.

 

-James "wow, people don't read any posts, as I keep posting the same thing" dillaman

[kraxleRIDAH]

As long CF keeps doing what they are doing, maybe someday MiA will reach that mark. With an 18% increase in 2005, and another increase in attendence in 2006, it seems the park is on its way. Oh, and they did all that without the addition of a roller coaster. Amazing, huh?

 

Yeah, but you know as well as I do that they can't do that forever.

 

Exactly. That's where that $4 million spinning roller coaster comes in.